Senior Member NCO Rank (Insignia)

[MSgt Van]

To recap:


If you choose to wear the lightweight jacket or all-weather coat, purchase USAF full color metal pin-on insignia to be placed same as USAF enlisted do and then place metal CAP insignia facing outwards in the middle of epaulet to distinguish from regular USAF enlisted.

39-1 doesn't allow senior member NCOs to wear insignia as you described.  Here's the authorized rank and CAP cutout placement for NCOs:

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.
Senior member, NCOs and Airmen wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve or 3-, 3 1/2-, or 4-inch (women) and 4-inch (men) cloth chevrons on sleeve. Cadet officers wear regular size metal grade insignia on epaulet. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear metal chevrons on right jacket collar.
2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior and cadet members without grade and senior member NCOs wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear highly polished metal CAP cutouts on both sides of jacket collar. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear cutouts on left side of collar.

[Eclipse]

So...

If a Senior member who chooses to display other military NCO grade also wear corporate-style uniforms
(i.e. whites, blue BDU's, CSU) then what?

The regs are clear that you can't wear military insignia on corporate-style uniforms, and there doesn't appear to be an epaulet-less CSU jacket anyway.

[MSgt Van]

So...

If a Senior member who chooses to display other military NCO grade also wear corporate-style uniforms
(i.e. whites, blue BDU's, CSU) then what?

The regs are clear that you can't wear military insignia on corporate-style uniforms, and there doesn't appear to be an epaulet-less CSU jacket anyway.

Do you mean other military NCO grade as in wearing Navy or Army rank insignia?

Also, No military insignia on corporate restricts me from wearing my AF badges, but each corporate combo has guidelines for wearing my SNCO chevrons. 

[afgeo4]

To recap:


If you choose to wear the lightweight jacket or all-weather coat, purchase USAF full color metal pin-on insignia to be placed same as USAF enlisted do and then place metal CAP insignia facing outwards in the middle of epaulet to distinguish from regular USAF enlisted.

39-1 doesn't allow senior member NCOs to wear insignia as you described.  Here's the authorized rank and CAP cutout placement for NCOs:

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.
Senior member, NCOs and Airmen wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve or 3-, 3 1/2-, or 4-inch (women) and 4-inch (men) cloth chevrons on sleeve. Cadet officers wear regular size metal grade insignia on epaulet. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear metal chevrons on right jacket collar.
2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior and cadet members without grade and senior member NCOs wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear highly polished metal CAP cutouts on both sides of jacket collar. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear cutouts on left side of collar.

You're quoting the wear of insignia on service/service dress uniform and what I said matches what you quoted EXACTLY.

Now... please quote what the reg states for outerwear such as lightweight jacket/all-weather coat if you plan to argue it.

[MSgt Van]

I don't argue. See figure 2-22 and 2-23 in CAPR 39-1.

[alamrcn]

Please don't wear the gray epaulets with make-shift bright insignia on them. That's not authorized. The insignia is specified to be embroidered in the regs and no such epaulet sleeves exist (at least not yet).

These blanks have been around since the late 80s when metal shoulder insignia on the service coat went away. There were maroon and blue (3rd size) also, kept available specifically for USAF NCO metal insignia. They never had the "goes here" bullion silver dot that the cadet officer sleeves have.

I'm not sayin what 39-1 does or doesn't say, I'm just sayin...

-Ace

[Major Carrales]

Ace,

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

[SSgt Rudin]

Ace,

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

If you could embroider a NCO grade on there, it would be kosher. Quite frankly when I was wearing NCO grade on my blues I wore the blank sleeve with pin on insignia, it may not have been in accordance with 39-1 (although it was before the last revision) but neither NHQ or vanguard could come up with a better idea. IMHO if NHQ is going to change something uniform wise and doesn't ensure that VG is able to meet the needs of the membership for that change they are just begging for members to violate the change, and I personally had no problem doing it since VG couldn't get their head out of their butt and NHQ wouldn't do anything to make them move faster.

[MSgt Van]

I'd think if you could take an AF version of the blue epaulet with rank and have someone duplicate the rank (same type of thread) on the gray CAP sleeve you'd be set. If you find that source let me know.

[Eagle400]

I'd think if you could take an AF version of the blue epaulet with rank and have someone duplicate the rank (same type of thread) on the gray CAP sleeve you'd be set. If you find that source let me know.

Before PHall has the chance to respond...

They already do.  The source is National Headquarters.  Just give em' a call and they will tell you how to get them.

[PHall]

We have a NCO here in CAWG who very carefully cut the grade insignia from an Air Force blue SMSgt epaulet and very carefully sewed them on to the blank grey epaulet.

It looks great!  You have to be about 6 inches away before you can tell they're not embroidered.
But they still look great. And it's probably the only way you're going to get a set of "embroidered" insignia.

[RiverAux]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

Maybe now that we're recording NCO rank in e-services they'll get a little more attention when it comes to this since they are now "visible". 

[mikeylikey]

^ Perhaps Flight Officers will get the proper rank FIRST.  There are MORE of THEM, than CAP NCO's!!!

[Eagle400]

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

It is.

[Hawk200]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

The funny thing is that it is only really an issue for Staff and Tech Sergeant. The top three curently exist in embroidered form. It's a simple matter of putting it on a different color cloth, and adding "CAP" to it. Not really difficult.

Maybe now that we're recording NCO rank in e-services they'll get a little more attention when it comes to this since they are now "visible". 

We can only hope. NCO's are starting to become more visible, especially considering that there is an interest in an NCO corps now.

[afgeo4]

I don't argue. See figure 2-22 and 2-23 in CAPR 39-1.

I stand corrected on the CAP cutouts.

[Major Carrales]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

[SSgt Rudin]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

[Major Carrales]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

Bring it on...lad.  Bring it on!!!  I've always tried to provide solutions to the counless "problems" people post here.  BLACK VANS be dashed!!!

[alamrcn]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

Just as I was going to bring up how many Major Generals there are, I thought the wiser and the obvious!

I'd love to see any photos or preferably scans of an NCO embroidered epaulette sleeve, if anyone has sources for such things.

-Ace