Senior Member NCO Rank (Insignia)

[supplyguy]

Hello,
MY name is Kraig Morris. I am a 1LT and am aeligible for Captain but I am also a Army Reserve E-6 SSG. I would be honored to be a Captain but I am leaning towards an E-6. I wanted to know if I pick e-6 would I wear AF TSgt on my BDU's and also TSgt shoulder boards as I don't see any CAP NCO rank @ CAPMART or Hockshop. I also am not really sure as if I picked this is it approved at Squadron level and doesn't show up in NHQ records. I greatly appreciate guidance as I want to be squared away. Thank You.

[RiverAux]

You would wear AF shoulder sleeve insignia.  Not sure about boards. 

[supplyguy]

Thanks,
I also wondered about Class A's as would I wear the U.S. as Sr Mbr officers do on the collar.
They also wore that as AF officers when I was in the AF but that was over 20 years ago and I can barely keep up with the Army.
Kraig

[supplyguy]

I have another question.

If what I know about squadron being promotion authority,what would I be grade wise in eyes of NHQ if I become a CAP TSgt.

[supplyguy]

I am asking all these questions so I don't look like a "Soup Sandwich". if I go NCO route.
I like to have all my ducks in a row

[mikeylikey]

I think you would wear the enlisted US cutouts (those new circular ones).  Vanguard does have NCO sleeves and stripes. 

[arajca]

Thanks,
I also wondered about Class A's as would I wear the U.S. as Sr Mbr officers do on the collar.
They also wore that as AF officers when I was in the AF but that was over 20 years ago and I can barely keep up with the Army.
Kraig

CAP does not wear Class A's. We wear Service Dress. As an NCO, you would wear the CAP cutout's, not the US. Ref CAPM 39-1, Fig. 6-13, pg 117.

[arajca]

I have another question.

If what I know about squadron being promotion authority,what would I be grade wise in eyes of NHQ if I become a CAP TSgt.

Your grade would be TSgt. Unless you promote in the Reserve, you will remain a TSgt for the rest of your CAP career. Currently, there is no NCO promotion authority in CAP, although that is being looked at.

[SarDragon]

I have another question.

If what I know about squadron being promotion authority,what would I be grade wise in eyes of NHQ if I become a CAP TSgt.

Your grade would be TSgt. Unless you promote in the Reserve, you will remain a TSgt for the rest of your CAP career. Currently, there is no NCO promotion authority in CAP, although that is being looked at.

Actually, you will be listed on NHQ records as an SM, since the NCO grades aren't tracked above Sq level.

[MIKE]

Doesn't always happen like that despite what the reg says.

[arajca]

I have another question.

If what I know about squadron being promotion authority,what would I be grade wise in eyes of NHQ if I become a CAP TSgt.

Your grade would be TSgt. Unless you promote in the Reserve, you will remain a TSgt for the rest of your CAP career. Currently, there is no NCO promotion authority in CAP, although that is being looked at.

Actually, you will be listed on NHQ records as an SM, since the NCO grades aren't tracked above Sq level.

I just pulled up a CAP NCO in my wing and her grade in Eservices is MSgt.

[Trung Si Ma]

I have another question.

If what I know about squadron being promotion authority,what would I be grade wise in eyes of NHQ if I become a CAP TSgt.

Your grade would be TSgt. Unless you promote in the Reserve, you will remain a TSgt for the rest of your CAP career. Currently, there is no NCO promotion authority in CAP, although that is being looked at.

Actually, you will be listed on NHQ records as an SM, since the NCO grades aren't tracked above Sq level.

National tracks NCO grades.  I have a CAP ID Card that says MSGT.

[SarDragon]

My bad. New stuff in the last couple of years. Glad to see NHQ is catching up to the 21st century.

[RiverAux]

Actually, its new in like the last few months, so don't feel too bad.

[PHall]

I think you would wear the enlisted US cutouts (those new circular ones).  Vanguard does have NCO sleeves and stripes. 

Nope, you wear CAP cutouts as per CAPM 39-1, Figure 6-13.

[MSgt Van]

You would wear TSgt Chevrons on your sleeve. 39-1 authorizes wear of gray shoulder boards with embroidered rank insignia, but I've never found a source. That's ok since I'm a "on the sleeve" kind of guy.

The new white shirt / AF blue slacks uniform authorizes the wear of AF blue shoulder boards with rank insignia.

I believe the recent national board authorized the wear of chevrons on the sleeve of the white sure, but I haven't seen any change letter on that one yet.

And you NEVER wear the Air Force enlisted collar brass (US in circle).

You also would wear the enlisted flight cap without the silver edge braid.

One final note - bright stripes and tapes on BDUs, not subdued.

[SSgt Rudin]

You would wear TSgt Chevrons on your sleeve. 39-1 authorizes wear of gray shoulder boards with embroidered rank insignia, but I've never found a source. That's ok since I'm a "on the sleeve" kind of guy.

Vanguard makes them, it just take a few tries for them to get it right.

Ordered: SSgt on grey
Shipment 1: SSgt on blue - Kept, but reordered SSgt on grey.
Shipment 2: TSgt on blue - returned
Shipment 3: TSgt on Grey - returned
Shipment 4: 2d Lt on Grey (I became an officer to become Deputy Commander)

But there is a 50% chance that they would have gotten it right the 4th time.
Also, the SSgt on blue is too big, but I figured if I sent it back I would get SrA on blue 



See the LT bars are the same size, but the embroidered SSgt is twice the size as the metal pin on.

[356cadet]

I'm a cadet, but, from what I'm told by other members, you would wear the CAP isignia, since CAP isn't related to the Army. This is what I'm told however. There's a 90% chance I'm wrong.

[Eclipse]

I'm a cadet, but, from what I'm told by other members, you would wear the CAP isignia, since CAP isn't related to the Army. This is what I'm told however. There's a 90% chance I'm wrong.

Make that 100%.

Senior members who are NCO's in another military service who have chosen to display that in lieu of accepting a CAP officer appointment do not wear cadet insignia.

They wear the standard, bright USAF insignia which corresponds to their respective grade, regardless of which service they are in.  (i.e. Navy, Army, Marines, CG wear USAF insignia which may or may not actually have the same number of stripes as their native insignia).

[afgeo4]

To recap:

You wear USAF E-6 Technical Sergeant full color sew on chevrons 4" on blues shirt and BDUs. You wear CAP bright metal insignia on blues shirt collar (both sides).

For the service dress, you wear the enlisted USAF service coat (without epaulets) with the same full color sew on chevrons on sleeves and same CAP cutouts on collar (instead of US).

Please don't wear the gray epaulets with make-shift bright insignia on them. That's not authorized. The insignia is specified to be embroidered in the regs and no such epaulet sleeves exist (at least not yet). Furthermore, the USAF has gone away from authorizing the wear of blue enlisted epaulets sleeves opting for everyone to wear sleeve chevrons (an Air Force tradition).

If you choose to wear the lightweight jacket or all-weather coat, purchase USAF full color metal pin-on insignia to be placed same as USAF enlisted do and then place metal CAP insignia facing outwards in the middle of epaulet to distinguish from regular USAF enlisted.

If you're wearing the woodland Gore-tex parka, purchase a blue gore-tex sleeve with CAP on it, but no rank and place one of those same full color metal pin-on insignias for TSgt in the middle.

Enlisted members do not wear any insignia on BDU cap. Enlisted flight cap is worn with the standard CAP senior member device.

On the flightsuit, don't wear any insignia on shoulders. Your grade will be noted on your leather name patch.

I'm assuming you're going to wear USAF style uniforms since you're within Army (and thus USAF) weight/grooming standards.

Hope this helps!

[MSgt Van]

To recap:


If you choose to wear the lightweight jacket or all-weather coat, purchase USAF full color metal pin-on insignia to be placed same as USAF enlisted do and then place metal CAP insignia facing outwards in the middle of epaulet to distinguish from regular USAF enlisted.

39-1 doesn't allow senior member NCOs to wear insignia as you described.  Here's the authorized rank and CAP cutout placement for NCOs:

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.
Senior member, NCOs and Airmen wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve or 3-, 3 1/2-, or 4-inch (women) and 4-inch (men) cloth chevrons on sleeve. Cadet officers wear regular size metal grade insignia on epaulet. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear metal chevrons on right jacket collar.
2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior and cadet members without grade and senior member NCOs wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear highly polished metal CAP cutouts on both sides of jacket collar. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear cutouts on left side of collar.

[Eclipse]

So...

If a Senior member who chooses to display other military NCO grade also wear corporate-style uniforms
(i.e. whites, blue BDU's, CSU) then what?

The regs are clear that you can't wear military insignia on corporate-style uniforms, and there doesn't appear to be an epaulet-less CSU jacket anyway.

[MSgt Van]

So...

If a Senior member who chooses to display other military NCO grade also wear corporate-style uniforms
(i.e. whites, blue BDU's, CSU) then what?

The regs are clear that you can't wear military insignia on corporate-style uniforms, and there doesn't appear to be an epaulet-less CSU jacket anyway.

Do you mean other military NCO grade as in wearing Navy or Army rank insignia?

Also, No military insignia on corporate restricts me from wearing my AF badges, but each corporate combo has guidelines for wearing my SNCO chevrons. 

[afgeo4]

To recap:


If you choose to wear the lightweight jacket or all-weather coat, purchase USAF full color metal pin-on insignia to be placed same as USAF enlisted do and then place metal CAP insignia facing outwards in the middle of epaulet to distinguish from regular USAF enlisted.

39-1 doesn't allow senior member NCOs to wear insignia as you described.  Here's the authorized rank and CAP cutout placement for NCOs:

1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.
Senior member, NCOs and Airmen wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve or 3-, 3 1/2-, or 4-inch (women) and 4-inch (men) cloth chevrons on sleeve. Cadet officers wear regular size metal grade insignia on epaulet. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear metal chevrons on right jacket collar.
2. CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior and cadet members without grade and senior member NCOs wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear highly polished metal CAP cutouts on both sides of jacket collar. Cadet NCOs and airmen wear cutouts on left side of collar.

You're quoting the wear of insignia on service/service dress uniform and what I said matches what you quoted EXACTLY.

Now... please quote what the reg states for outerwear such as lightweight jacket/all-weather coat if you plan to argue it.

[MSgt Van]

I don't argue. See figure 2-22 and 2-23 in CAPR 39-1.

[alamrcn]

Please don't wear the gray epaulets with make-shift bright insignia on them. That's not authorized. The insignia is specified to be embroidered in the regs and no such epaulet sleeves exist (at least not yet).

These blanks have been around since the late 80s when metal shoulder insignia on the service coat went away. There were maroon and blue (3rd size) also, kept available specifically for USAF NCO metal insignia. They never had the "goes here" bullion silver dot that the cadet officer sleeves have.

I'm not sayin what 39-1 does or doesn't say, I'm just sayin...

-Ace

[Major Carrales]

Ace,

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

[SSgt Rudin]

Ace,

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

If you could embroider a NCO grade on there, it would be kosher. Quite frankly when I was wearing NCO grade on my blues I wore the blank sleeve with pin on insignia, it may not have been in accordance with 39-1 (although it was before the last revision) but neither NHQ or vanguard could come up with a better idea. IMHO if NHQ is going to change something uniform wise and doesn't ensure that VG is able to meet the needs of the membership for that change they are just begging for members to violate the change, and I personally had no problem doing it since VG couldn't get their head out of their butt and NHQ wouldn't do anything to make them move faster.

[MSgt Van]

I'd think if you could take an AF version of the blue epaulet with rank and have someone duplicate the rank (same type of thread) on the gray CAP sleeve you'd be set. If you find that source let me know.

[Eagle400]

I'd think if you could take an AF version of the blue epaulet with rank and have someone duplicate the rank (same type of thread) on the gray CAP sleeve you'd be set. If you find that source let me know.

Before PHall has the chance to respond...

They already do.  The source is National Headquarters.  Just give em' a call and they will tell you how to get them.

[PHall]

We have a NCO here in CAWG who very carefully cut the grade insignia from an Air Force blue SMSgt epaulet and very carefully sewed them on to the blank grey epaulet.

It looks great!  You have to be about 6 inches away before you can tell they're not embroidered.
But they still look great. And it's probably the only way you're going to get a set of "embroidered" insignia.

[RiverAux]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

Maybe now that we're recording NCO rank in e-services they'll get a little more attention when it comes to this since they are now "visible". 

[mikeylikey]

^ Perhaps Flight Officers will get the proper rank FIRST.  There are MORE of THEM, than CAP NCO's!!!

[Eagle400]

Do you mean to say that if I had the ability to embroider the NCO rank on the sleeve it might be CAP kosher?

It is.

[Hawk200]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

The funny thing is that it is only really an issue for Staff and Tech Sergeant. The top three curently exist in embroidered form. It's a simple matter of putting it on a different color cloth, and adding "CAP" to it. Not really difficult.

Maybe now that we're recording NCO rank in e-services they'll get a little more attention when it comes to this since they are now "visible". 

We can only hope. NCO's are starting to become more visible, especially considering that there is an interest in an NCO corps now.

[afgeo4]

I don't argue. See figure 2-22 and 2-23 in CAPR 39-1.

I stand corrected on the CAP cutouts.

[Major Carrales]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

[SSgt Rudin]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

[Major Carrales]

For a $60 set up charge local embroidery shops can create the necessary service.

So, what has to be done is that the necessary number of CAP NCOs pay the fee and go into business selling these things.  Simply buy the "velcro" plain shoulder mark and have the NCO cheveron of choice placed on there.

Or, some Active Duty/Active CAP NCO could do this for their current grade (the set up fee) and all those after that (provided they get promoted IAW standards) and sell the service of creating them to their fellow CAP-NCO.  So, a SSgt pays the $60 (or so) set up fee and then accepts "orders" (with a reasonable mark-up to recover the set up fee) from others.

There, two possible solutions to this "problem."

Bring it on...lad.  Bring it on!!!  I've always tried to provide solutions to the counless "problems" people post here.  BLACK VANS be dashed!!!

[alamrcn]

When you've only got around 50 NCOs in CAP its sort of hard to make insignia for them given that there are probably only a dozen or less of each NCO rank. 

Just as I was going to bring up how many Major Generals there are, I thought the wiser and the obvious!

I'd love to see any photos or preferably scans of an NCO embroidered epaulette sleeve, if anyone has sources for such things.

-Ace

[supplyguy]

I want to say Thank You to everyone for their help and input as it is greatly appreciated. Thank You.
Kraig Morris
TSgt, CAP
I just requested last night to be demoted to TSgt and it is in national today. I think its "Awesome". Thank You.

[MSgt Van]

Personally, I wouldn't consider it a demotion..
Welcome to the CAP NCO corps. We should be up to 64 or so nationwide... :clap:

[Cecil DP]

I just requested last night to be demoted to TSgt and it is in national today. I think its "Awesome". Thank You.

It;s not a demotion, You've just returned from the "Dark Side"

[supplyguy]

I really like the "Return from the Dark Side".  I am also retiring from USAR as a SSG soon.
Thank You.

Kraig Morris
TSgt CAP
SSG USAR

[Cecil DP]

I'm stubborn and refuse to retiree from the USAR until it's mandatory (as in the last day of the month I turn 60). If I'm still a member next year, I may also return to the side of righteousness, as a SMSGT

[Trung Si Ma]

I will return to the NCO corps when I leave the IG slot.

[SSgt Rudin]

I will return to the NCO corps when I leave the IG slot.

As will I once I'm done playing Deputy Commander, if I don't become CC.

[lordmonar]

I'll buck the trend....

I'm an AD (soon to retire) MSgt...but I'll keep my Capt bars (or trade them for Maj Oak Leafs this Nov).

Just because CAP NCOs just screw the whole system up.

We still don't have a defined role, and no way to progress.

To me it just seems to be a Good Ole Boys Club within CAP....and we got enough of those with the Pilots vs everyone else, CP vs ES, Wing vs Squadron....etc, et al.

COULD NCOs have a role in CAP...sure...and if you go look in the CAP NCO thread you will see my ideas about it.

[mikeylikey]

^ very good points.  IF there was a defined role for NCO's and an established NCO Corps, I would be all for prior service NCO's to keep their rank, and possibly promote within CAP.  But there is not. 

All it comes down to in today's CAP is that old saying "I am an NCO, I work for a living". 

CAP has an Officer Corps.  Brand new members without prior service begin as Officers.  To say "I want to stay an NCO" strikes as trying to be better than everyone else.

I may be way off base here, but I just don't see an advantage to staying an NCO. 

Now, if CAP were to invent an NCO corps, with goals, and a well defined purpose like we almost had two years ago, I would support it in an instant.  But we don't.   

[Trung Si Ma]

...and no way to progress.

As a LtCol, I don't have a way to progress either, so this argument is specious.

Yes, I can promote to COL by becoming a Wing King - but I don't need to be a LtCol to become a Wing CC either.

CAP grade is just a means of keeping score and I'm giving up my scorecard. 

[lordmonar]

That is true sir,

But an Ex Capt can progress up....Lt Cols are just at the top...an NCO cannot.  If you were a Spec-4 way back when.....you will always remain a Spec-4 no matter if you have your level 5 and serve 20 years in CAP.

Because NCO's can't progress it indictate that not only is their no need for them....but that CAP doesn't know how/want to deal with them.

I don't really care if someone wants to keep their stripes......I just think it stirs up the already muddy waters of CAP's rank system.

[PHall]

I did the NCO thing for a couple of years and ended up going back to my officer grade mainly because the "system" didn't know what to do with me.

I was serving as the Deputy Commander for Cadets in my squadron.
Had more then a couple people try to tell me I couldn't be a Deputy Commander as a NCO.
Did my usual reply, "oh yeah, show me in the regs where it says I can't".

Never got a good reg cite, but the constant BS made it not worth the effort.

But hey, if it's your thing, great. But CAP has no clue on what you can or can't do.

YMMV

[MSgt Van]

I progress up the levels of professional development like other senior members, and expect the other SM nco's in my squadron to do the same.  I strive to help my Squadron, Group or Wing CC however I can.  I don't promote, but I do progress in my training.

I do agree with the other comments; I'm not sure what the benefit to a "structured" NCO corps within CAP would be.  I think the current development levels are well defined, and I'd hope they wouldn't change the expectations (lessen the requirements) for NCO development levels. I was discussing the NCO thing with my Wing CC this weekend. He's put requirements in place for Wing staff positions, but those are related to levels of professional development, and not rank per sei. 

This is interesting discussion; maybe a little of topic, but interesting.

[Trung Si Ma]

I progress up the levels of professional development like other senior members, and expect the other This is interesting discussion; maybe a little of topic, but interesting.

And without the vitriol of earlier threads.

[afgeo4]

I progress up the levels of professional development like other senior members, and expect the other SM nco's in my squadron to do the same.  I strive to help my Squadron, Group or Wing CC however I can.  I don't promote, but I do progress in my training.

I do agree with the other comments; I'm not sure what the benefit to a "structured" NCO corps within CAP would be.  I think the current development levels are well defined, and I'd hope they wouldn't change the expectations (lessen the requirements) for NCO development levels. I was discussing the NCO thing with my Wing CC this weekend. He's put requirements in place for Wing staff positions, but those are related to levels of professional development, and not rank per sei. 

This is interesting discussion; maybe a little of topic, but interesting.

How can you have expectations for NCO development levels when there aren't any?

We have senior member officer development levels. Not that an NCO can't participate in them, but as a training system for NCOs... there isn't one. If they had one, they'd have to link it to promotions of some kind. As it is, a former E-5 would have no reason to train as he/she cannot promote anyway. What's the additional motivation when we all have so little time after we do all that's needed of us at our squadrons and in our lives?

[Bobble]

This is my first post, but I've been lurking for quite a while, and it's been a useful learning experience.

I joined CAP in Nov. '07, and as per discussions with my Squadron Commander, wore E-5 insignia until I was eligible for, and promoted to, O-1.  Since we're a cadet squadron, we agreed that it would serve as a good example for the cadets to see a former enlisted promote into the officer ranks instead of remaining status quo indefinitely.  After all, we are trying to get the idea across that all, both cadets and seniors, should be continually striving for development and advancement.

As a state-certified secondary education teacher, I also could have initially requested a jump in grade, but that's probably not a good thing for cadets who have worked their way through the program to witness either, IMHO.

On a personal note, while I am proud that I was able to serve my country RM-wise, that was then and this is.....well, you get the idea.  For me, CAP is a new (and different) program and a fresh start.  I don't really see the point in either staying enlisted or jumping grades.  I'm just happy to go with the program as it stands.  Note that my CAP status, grade, or rank in no way affects my take-home pay.

[MIKE]

Not this thread drift again...