Non-Doctor & Non-Nurse Medical Personnel

[LSThiker]

Beyond the general "hydrate / sleep / etc." there nothing an HSO can do that any reasonably
capable parent with first aid training can't, and if they are doing something that exceeds that level,
they are likely violating a reg or common sense some where

Well like you said:

And the credibility risk is pretty high - nothing worse then someone lecturing about a subject they 1/2-read
on the internet 15 minutes before meeting to people with direct expertise on the subject.

So would I rather trust a person with a formal education in medical science and held to a national standard or a parent that believes woo-woo?

No adult member in CAP with a lick of sense is going to an HSO for information on their personal health
or fitness, that's why they have personal Drs, and no HSO worth his cert is going to make recommendations
without knowing a person's history.  "Eat less / move more" doesn't require an HSO, and if you tell me
to do deep knee bends and jumping jacks without knowing about my bad knee and compressed disks,
you're putting yourself and the organization at risk.

Sigh.  No one is saying that they should, not even CAPR 160-1.  There is a difference between educating and making recommendations on personal health.

[Eclipse]

So would I rather trust a person with a formal education in medical science and held to a national standard or a parent that believes woo-woo?

Members don't need to be "trusting" either, since there's noting relevent in a CAP context which isn't already
a part of nationally approved curriculum.

No adult member in CAP with a lick of sense is going to an HSO for information on their personal health
or fitness, that's why they have personal Drs, and no HSO worth his cert is going to make recommendations
without knowing a person's history.  "Eat less / move more" doesn't require an HSO, and if you tell me
to do deep knee bends and jumping jacks without knowing about my bad knee and compressed disks,
you're putting yourself and the organization at risk.

Sigh.  No one is saying that they should, not even CAPR 160-1.  There is a difference between educating and making recommendations on personal health.

Then there is no need for special recognition to present information on subjects that require no special training to present.

This is the dichotomy NHQ and their lawyers have created.  As you can find on this site, CAP members used to hang IVs in the field,
but until it goes back to that, or HSOs start giving flight physicals to members for free, the recognition serves no purpose.

[Storm Chaser]

So much background noise for roles which can't actually do anything specific to their training or education.

They can and do.  Just because they cannot "practice medicine", that does not mean they cannot use their education and/or training.  In fact, they are encouraged to by giving formal advice on health matters to the commander.  This is due to their training and education in the medical sciences.  Would you as a commander take the advice of a person that read on the internet about XYZ or the advice of a person that underwent formal education and schooling to know about XYZ?  So by saying that their training is irrelevant to CAP and that they cannot use it is rather disingenuous.

Many CAP members have skills which benefit CAP directly or indirectly, yet don't have badges to go with those skills... Nor should they.

[Ned]

I have served as an encampment commander multiple times as well as a couple of tours as an NCSA AD. 

In every instance I have received a great deal of help from HSOs (RNs and a PA) when reviewing medical forms submitted by applicants and their parents.  For example, a parent may disclose that a cadet has condition X.  And it was always helpful to have a HSO advise me on what sort of limitations and restrictions I should anticipate and plan for.  One example that I recall was a cadet diagnosed with "Osgood Schlatter" disease.

Sounded dreadful to me, but after having it explained by my HSO it was perfectly manageable, and the cadet graduated.

I have also benefitted from an HSO's advice when it came to inclement weather (at both ends of the continuum), and assisting during the RST blocks when conducting ORM for a particular activity.

Could I have done my job without an HSO handy?  Probably.  But it was a lot easier to have their expertise available to assist.

YMMV.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't think anyone is questioning the experience or training that medical professionals can bring to CAP. The issue is with the way the program is laid out and what the regulations actually allow HSOs to do, which is not much. In addition, not every HSO in CAP has the same training, certifications or experience, which means that just because someone is an HSO doesn't mean they're qualified to perform some of the duties and tasks mentioned.

Any health professional or technician may qualify for a health service appointment in CAP, provided that proof of current unrestricted licensure, registration, or certification, where such is required by law or regulation, is furnished.

[LSThiker]

Members don't need to be "trusting" either, since there's noting relevent in a CAP context which isn't already
a part of nationally approved curriculum.

You mean that same national approved curriculum that lays out how an HSO can be used?

Many CAP members have skills which benefit CAP directly or indirectly, yet don't have badges to go with those skills... Nor should they.

That is true, but never argued the opposite.  In fact, I said that was a path that NHQ could take, but that I was not going to go down that path and discuss it. 

In addition, not every HSO in CAP has the same training, certifications or experience, which means that just because someone is an HSO doesn't mean they're qualified to perform some of the duties and tasks mentioned.

That is true, but CAPR 160-1 already has the answer for that:

advice or other guidance will be limited to the member's area of expertise, and appropriate consultation should be sought otherwise

One example that I recall was a cadet diagnosed with "Osgood Schlatter" disease.

Sounded dreadful to me, but after having it explained by my HSO it was perfectly manageable, and the cadet graduated.

Medical names always seem to make things sound worse than it really is.  My favorite, one that I have used before, is Medial Tibial Stress Syndrome or simply "Shin Splints".  I told that to someone and they thought my leg was going to fall off.

Until NHQ decides to eliminate the HSO program, I will continue to seek their advise.  Until then gentlemen, have a good weekend.

[supertigerCH]

LSThinker,

You were SO right about this being a sensitive and touchy issue.

I honestly have not been part of this forum long enough to have seen expressed... how strongly people (pro & con) feel about the CAP medical / HSO program. 


If I had known this ahead of time... I would have thought of a different topic to talk about for this thread!

[EMT-83]

Every HSO I've encountered was given the duty position for the purpose of receiving a quick promotion, and never did anything related to the job.

Value to the organization? Zero.

[lordmonar]

Every HSO I've encountered was given the duty position for the purpose of receiving a quick promotion, and never did anything related to the job.

Value to the organization? Zero.

Cost to the organization?  Zero.

Not that I'm in favor of a lot of advanced promotions......but doing the cost/benefit analysis of any CAP promotion a near ZERO/ZERO game.

[Eclipse]

^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

[lordmonar]

^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

We got clueless FGOs who have spent 20 years in CAP, earning their rank the "hard" way.  I agree with your general statement that we need to limit advanced promotions.  But until we fix that problem.....complaining about Doctors with major leaves is a little silly.

[Eclipse]

^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

We got clueless FGOs who have spent 20 years in CAP, earning their rank the "hard" way.  I agree with your general statement that we need to limit advanced promotions.  But until we fix that problem.....complaining about Doctors with major leaves is a little silly.

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

[lordmonar]

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?     

[Eclipse]

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?     

Because in that case you're confusing "fix" with "make things worse".

When a ship is taking water on the port side, you don't drill holes in the starboard side to "let it out".

[lordmonar]

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?     

Because in that case you're confusing "fix" with "make things worse".

When a ship is taking water on the port side, you don't drill holes in the starboard side to "let it out".

I'd like to know how an NCO corps makes things worse....but we should move that to another thread. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

You may not drill holes water on the starboard side to let the water out, but you do let water in so the boat does not capsize. How deep the water is under the boat is another matter.



Sorry man, wrong analogy...

[Storm Chaser]

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?     

Because we still don't know what an NCO is supposed to do that is different from what an officer does. I've been "encouraged" to appoint a Group SNCO Advisor and I'm still trying to figure out what his or her role will be. There's practically zero guidance from above and we're supposed to roll with this program. Not even the current NCOs we have are sure (I've asked a few).

[Shuman 14]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

[sarmed1]

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

I have had this same thought process for awhile.  It could very easily (in the most basic of terms anyway) solve the what do HSO's really do for CAP.  I imagine a "we scratch your back you scratch ours" deal.  CAP's HSO's provide support services to various CONUS USAF needs, USAF agrees to cover the malpractice/liability issue for CAP by using a mission status for CAP HSO's to provide medical care to CAP elements during approved activities (in addition to in actual SAR/DR type missions)

The reality is likely no where that easy.  Coming from the USAF medical service side; trying to get people who you are actually paying money to, to make sure their training/recertification/skill verification etc etc is up to date and uploaded to the right places is at times difficult.  I imagine having the same requirements for folks that are there for free/as they have the time etc etc would produce a less than real number force that the "number"of HSO's out there CAP would say they have....

MK

[Eclipse]

How many paid medical professionals are going to volunteer their time to treat other paid professionals
while at the same time knowing they are taking another paid professional's job?

That last part won't get us on anyone's Christmas card list, either.

Times of crisis are one thing, normal operations are another, not to mention the non-trivial issue
of command authority over people not covered by UCMJ, and who probably outrank everyone in the room.

And if you want to suggest that members serve in something other then their CAP uniform, and with no
acknowledgement of their CAP grade, like VSAF, then those aren't really CAP members, they are just people
on a mailing list, and they might as well just go up to the VC and volunteer directly and leave CAP out of it.

In fact, owing to the existing prohibitions regarding medical services, they would be better off volunteering
directly without the encumbrances of CAP affiliation. As a "Dr." they can do whatever they want, as a CAP
HSO, they can't.