Awards for EMT's?

[sw75044]

So while thumbing through 39-1 and 39-3 I realize there's a special badge for EMT's and paramedics nurses dr's etc...there's also a decoration for life saving. As far as the guidelines required for that award, wouldn't it just be kind of a default award for all of our health services/medical officers? Granted, podiatrists and veterinarians may never have "saved a human life" but I mean, if an EMT or paramedic rushes a heart attack to the hospital and he survives the ordeal based on their assessment and pre-hospital treatment, isn't that essentially the meaning of the word "life-saving"?

[Panache]

Technically, it could.  I guess it's really something of a "personal integrity" thing.  I've always viewed the Lifesaving Certificate as for someone who's not a "professional", or for a "professional" who does it while "off the clock."

I'm an EMT and I work in Law Enforcement.  Being duel-qualified, it's not uncommon for me to meet the qualifications for the Lifesaving Certificate on almost a weekly basis.  That being said, I've refused the nomination from my CC for my actions while on the clock at my paying job.  I feel my EMT badge is good enough.

But, I guess if you got somebody who's more concerned about the bling, a case can be made for those who have EMS or professional medical qualifications and perform actions that technically qualify for the Lifesaving Certificate for actions while on the job.  Personally, I don't feel that's "right", but YMMV.

[Slim]

Technically, it could.  I guess it's really something of a "personal integrity" thing.  I've always viewed the Lifesaving Certificate as for someone who's not a "professional", or for a "professional" who does it while "off the clock."

I'm an EMT and I work in Law Enforcement.  Being duel-qualified, it's not uncommon for me to meet the qualifications for the Lifesaving Certificate on almost a weekly basis.  That being said, I've refused the nomination from my CC for my actions while on the clock at my paying job.  I feel my EMT badge is good enough.

But, I guess if you got somebody who's more concerned about the bling, a case can be made for those who have EMS or professional medical qualifications and perform actions that technically qualify for the Lifesaving Certificate for actions while on the job.  Personally, I don't feel that's "right", but YMMV.

This 23 year firefighter/EMT agrees with you.  It's my job; if I get a save at work, or do something dumb enough to warrant a commendation, then my employers may recognize me for it.

On the other hand, I've been in the position of taking action off the clock that may have been worthy of a lifesaving certificate, or possibly a BMoV, but it also strikes me wrong to have to submit myself for such an award.  Besides which, that then reverts back to "It's my job."  I don't do it for the accolades, or the awards.  I do it because at some point in my past, I chose to answer a calling.

[sw75044]

I agree, I just feel like it's a little odd to have such a vague coverage for an award, now if a 14 year old cadet is in the grocery store and person goes down and they start CPR and it results in a save, I firmly believe that they such be commended for their actions but it just seems like there's probably a few HSO's that may just be after the "bling" and that just seems like a lack of integrity and just a desire for an ego stroke, I'm also an EMT and I've turned down multiple accolades for actions while on and off duty that resulted in a "save" the only award I need is that I have the comfort of knowing that my actions with my partner on the truck resulted in that person going home to their families again.

[lordmonar]

Following the lead of the USAF and the BSA.....if you have a duty to act....that is it is your job......then no you don't qualify for lifesaving awards.

Hence doctors, EMTs, firefighters, SAR pilots, PJs, etc....don't get a bunch of lifesaving awards (the Air Force calls them Airman Medals).

They do get recognized in other ways....that have meaning to them....but not with the standard medal.

So in a CAP context........if you used those skills on a CAP mission and the IC decided it was a SAVE then yes you would get the medal.
If you as an EMT at work responded to a car crash and saved someone's life......no I don't think so.
If you as a joe blow citezen not employed as and EMT responded to a car crash and saved someone's life.....yes you would get it.

Yep it is not fair......but who said life is fair?

[sw75044]

I think that HSO's and Med Officers should be entirely excluded from the medal when not on a CAP mission.

[Flying Pig]

I am an EMT qualified LEO.  My position has always been that if your agency chooses to recognize you for going above and beyond, then submit it to CAP for the decoration and see if it makes its way up the chain.    Ive done CPR on a number of people, been to plenty of crashes.... even made entry into a building during an active shooter and it was nothing more than "make sure your report is done before you go home".    The one time I got a MoV and a Lifesaving at work, the action was submitted to CAP for consideration but the form was found years later in an old desk drawer.... never mailed. 

Im not of the view that everything needs to be done on a CAP mission to warrant the medal.  The military, LE, Fire and other public safety recognize employees actions off the job when its something above and beyond.  No reason CAP cant.  But if you are a Cardiologist, I don't think you rate a CAP lifesaving medal every time you perform a triple by-pass. 

[LSThiker]

I think that HSO's and Med Officers should be entirely excluded from the medal when not on a CAP mission.

I disagree.  Not all HSOs are required to provide medical care in emergencies.  Laboratory scientists are not required to be trained in first aid and are not required to provide medical care under law.  Except for the requirement to call for an ambulance, the same is true for public health, medical entomologists, social workers, medical materiel, biomedical equipment specialists, etc. 

[sw75044]

Let me correct myself, that is required by law to render BLS medical attention. It's just too simple for someone in that position (I'm currently on shift at the firehouse as I'm typing this)  we had a patient this morning in extreme PSVT and pushed adenosine and boom it worked perfect and the dr at the ER said he looked like he'd be just fine. If in fact we didn't do that he would have died. Technically a save, I'd never accept an award for it because it simply written in my job description to do that by my protocols. I just want to see those types of awards given to those people who "go above and beyond to save a human life" and not just some EMT who's in cap looking for a non-stop pat on the back for doing his job. Even though I thing when it got to wing for approval it would be squashed like a bug

[LSThiker]

I just want to see those types of awards given to those people who "go above and beyond to save a human life" and not just some EMT who's in cap looking for a non-stop pat on the back for doing his job. Even though I thing when it got to wing for approval it would be squashed like a bug

That is why there is such a thing called command decisions.  While I agree that EMTs doing their job should not qualify, but to write it in the reg is unnecessary. 

[Storm Chaser]

I just want to see those types of awards given to those people who "go above and beyond to save a human life" and not just some EMT who's in cap looking for a non-stop pat on the back for doing his job. Even though I thing when it got to wing for approval it would be squashed like a bug

That is why there is such a thing called command decisions.  While I agree that EMTs doing their job should not qualify, but to write it in the reg is unnecessary.

I respectfully disagree. I think one of the reasons we have so many issues in CAP is because too many regs are open to interpretation.

[Archer]

What if Pineda was a mechanic?

[LSThiker]

I respectfully disagree. I think one of the reasons we have so many issues in CAP is because too many regs are open to interpretation.

Yes, other regulations, such as CAPM 39-1, I would agree.  However, for awards, most notably, the commendation-type, they are entirely subjective. They require command decisions.  The lifesaving award is no different.  I would recommend removing wing commanders from the awarding authority and give it solely to the region commanders if we are too worried about interpretation.   

[lordmonar]

I just want to see those types of awards given to those people who "go above and beyond to save a human life" and not just some EMT who's in cap looking for a non-stop pat on the back for doing his job. Even though I thing when it got to wing for approval it would be squashed like a bug

That is why there is such a thing called command decisions.  While I agree that EMTs doing their job should not qualify, but to write it in the reg is unnecessary.

I respectfully disagree. I think one of the reasons we have so many issues in CAP is because too many regs are open to interpretation.

Only if there is not command oversight.    The USAF has the same exact situation......it is not written up anywhere that EMTs, PJ, et al can't get these medals....but there is "corporate oversight" that keeps it in control. 

But by not putting it into the regulation......you allow yourself the room to say "No....Fireman Johnny did something extra special today....let's award him the Airman's Medal".

[UH60guy]

I think that's where the "above and beyond" phrase enters into things. The commander makes the decision- was it their job (like EMTs), or was it something extra?

At least that's the check I used to employ to help decide what was award-worthy as a commander in the Army. I haven't had the pleasure of being a CAP CC yet, and I bet it's interesting to deal with people from all walks of life. But, when that day comes, the "above and beyond" check is the one I will use.

Example- A firefighter on duty pulling someone from a burning car gets a pat on the back and I'll buy the first round, but the brand new SMWOG software engineer who pulls over off the highway to do just that would probably be recommended for award since it's not his job.

[Private Investigator]

I agree on the "above and beyond". 

[Panache]

And timing is a factor, too. 

The regs specifically mention blood and organ transport that results in a save.  So, even though I'm an EMT, if I'm acting in a CAP capacity doing an organ transport mission, I feel a Lifesaving Award would be appropriate.  Because, again, it is specifically written into the award description.

Or, let's say me and Mrs. Panache are at Disney World, and I save somebody's life after they choke on their hot dog after seeing how high the tab was for their family's dinner.  I'm not on the clock, and the save was on my own time, so I wouldn't feel too bad receiving a Lifesaving Award.   

[Flying Pig]

Keep in mind organ transport missions receive the lifesaving medal with the star attachment correct?  So its actually a different award than a lifesaving.   Or do I have that backwards?  Silver star attachment for lifesaving and NO star for organ transport flights?

[LSThiker]

Keep in mind organ transport missions receive the lifesaving medal with the star attachment correct?  So its actually a different award than a lifesaving.   Or do I have that backwards?  Silver star attachment for lifesaving and NO star for organ transport flights?

You have it backwards.  No star for organ transport. 

[Mitchell 1969]

I think that's where the "above and beyond" phrase enters into things. The commander makes the decision- was it their job (like EMTs), or was it something extra?

At least that's the check I used to employ to help decide what was award-worthy as a commander in the Army. I haven't had the pleasure of being a CAP CC yet, and I bet it's interesting to deal with people from all walks of life. But, when that day comes, the "above and beyond" check is the one I will use.

Example- A firefighter on duty pulling someone from a burning car gets a pat on the back and I'll buy the first round, but the brand new SMWOG software engineer who pulls over off the highway to do just that would probably be recommended for award since it's not his job.

Same firefighter, OFF duty, rates the award too, in my book.

There's a difference between responding to something while supported by equipment, communications, backup enroute, liability protection etc. as opposed to responding on one's own.

[BlueLakes1]

I spent 10 years fire service, five LEO, I've been an EMT since 1994 and a paramedic since 1997, and I echo the other sentiments. I could be sold on approving a MoV under some circumstances, but I don't know that I could be convinced to approve a Lifesaving Award for someone who was on duty at the time - nor would I have accepted one for myself, had one been awarded to me.

YMMV, of course.