Wings (Air Crew Badge) for Scanners?

[Major Carrales]

Flying Pig is only one of several people who, in the past, have seen scanner wings as unnecessary (no judgments, just a fact to preface what I am about to write next.) 

I must say, that I am surprised that the nature of this thread is as favorable as it is.  There was another such discussion, either here or at the now defunct CIVIL AIR PORTAL where the then forum mavens were quite negative on the prospect of SCANNER WINGS.

The arguments against it ranged from similar one's Flying Pig is making to one that "Mission Scanner is a step in becoming a Mission Observer)

I have always been favorable to the idea myself having once qualified long ago as a Mission Observer.  I have not worn those wings in over a decade (when my quals ran out, but an considering wearing them again)  The Mission Scanner, by virtue of the fact that is it 1) completely different than an OBSERVER, 2) often takes on other responsibilities (such as aerial photography) 3) has its own SQTR form and 4) is part of a qualified aircrew (for example you cannot just grabs any CADET PROGRAMS OFFICER, MISSION RADIO OPERATOR or GROUND TEAM MEMBER who happens to be free and put them in as a qualified mission scanner with out training and expect your sortie to be released.)

I say, there is nothing to lose by creating the wings...and, if some person who is primary Ground Team, MRO, CP or the like wants to take a WHOLE CAP approach to their service and serve as a qualified "Stand by" Mission Scanner with no ambitions to become a pilot or observer.  I say let them.

[biomed441]

I say, there is nothing to lose by creating the wings...and, if some person who is primary Ground Team, MRO, CP or the like wants to take a WHOLE CAP approach to their service and serve as a qualified "Stand by" Mission Scanner with no ambitions to become a pilot or observer.  I say let them.

I see your point of view here.  I see Flying Pigs as well.  I remember when I was a scanner, while I wanted to be aircrew for the missions and love for being in an aircraft, the added idea of having wings of course was there.  I think that extra little push to want wings was enough incentive for me to pursue being an observer though.  I am not a pilot so earning those observer wings was an accomplishment for me and I actually enjoy the front seat more than I do the back.  I don't mean to belittle the value of having a scanner in the back though and if people are content just being scanners, power to them.  If scanners did get approved for a badge of some kind, you wouldn't see me complaining, but personally would like to see scanners at least rate in something else before giving them wings. 

[Hawk200]

Just a suggestion, make the scanner wing a half wing. They've been produced before,but update the design to the straight wing. I wouldn't be surprised if many would upgrade to replace it with ful wings.

If you're going to talk about things that are "non-essential", then solo and pre-solo wings have got to go. They really are nothing more than "feel good" bling in the first place, and don't indicate any kind of mission ability. At least a scanner provides a function; solo and pre-solo do not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Perhaps a different shape or style of wing similar to how the Navy combat aircrew badge has "wings" on it but they are clearly not pilot wings or nav wings or what have you.  Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

An example from north of the 49th parallel:


Pilot


Navigator


Flight Crew


Flight Surgeon

The distinction between the "front office" and the "back office" is clear by the shape of the wings...interesting to note that they include Flight Surgeons in the "back office."

Again, a single half-wing brevet would be usable for CAP.

[Flying Pig]

Aside from other jobs ie. ARCHER, AP, etc, There are two specialties in a CAP plane.  Observer and Pilot.  Both start as Scanners and branch out into their respective paths.  Thats one of the reasons I see it as a starting point for continued training, not an "aircrew" spot. Not all pilots are observers and not all observers are pilots, but ALL observers and pilots are scanners.  Scanner isnt a specialty, its a common foundation. Its the most basic qualification to be able to "work" in a CAP aircraft

I have had the opportunity to fly with Observers who really do command the mission and it takes a huge relief off of the pilot when the Observer is tuning radios for you, pulling things up on the MFD (G1000) or working the other avionics.  That is what a scanner should be attempting to become.  I've also flown with Observers who were nothing more than a number in my W&B calculation!

So what I am saying is f you are happy being a Mission Scanner and you have no desire to move beyond that GREAT!  I just dont think you need a badge.  We all know once we approve scanner wings, we will need Senior Scanner and Master Scanner wings.  Please..........

However....
If CAP does move on with making scanner wings make it a head in a barf bag with lightening bolts coming out of their ears

[supertigerCH]

Even if an Air Crew badge did exist though...  wouldn't pilots/observers still start out in the scanner position?

That wouldn't have to change... would it?

[arajca]

Even if an Air Crew badge did exist though...  wouldn't pilots/observers still start out in the scanner position?

That wouldn't have to change... would it?

Not necessarily.
To quote my proposal:
"The Air Crew positions are fairly self explanatory. Mission Scanner is an entry level position and progresses to Mission Observer. Highbird Radio Operator is another entry level position, but does not have a progression track. The various ARCHER and aerial imagery qualifications involve significant training and practice. Progression through the aircrew insignia levels is possible, using a formula similar to the Observer progression"

The difference in the badge design generally indicates that the wearer is a back-seater, not a front-seater.

[Spaceman3750]

Even if an Air Crew badge did exist though...  wouldn't pilots/observers still start out in the scanner position?

That wouldn't have to change... would it?

Not necessarily.
To quote my proposal:
"The Air Crew positions are fairly self explanatory. Mission Scanner is an entry level position and progresses to Mission Observer. Highbird Radio Operator is another entry level position, but does not have a progression track. The various ARCHER and aerial imagery qualifications involve significant training and practice. Progression through the aircrew insignia levels is possible, using a formula similar to the Observer progression"

The difference in the badge design generally indicates that the wearer is a back-seater, not a front-seater.

Is HRO even a qual or is it an MRO in an airplane?

[supertigerCH]

Even if an Air Crew badge did exist though...  wouldn't pilots/observers still start out in the scanner position?

That wouldn't have to change... would it?

Not necessarily.
To quote my proposal:
"The Air Crew positions are fairly self explanatory. Mission Scanner is an entry level position and progresses to Mission Observer. Highbird Radio Operator is another entry level position, but does not have a progression track. The various ARCHER and aerial imagery qualifications involve significant training and practice. Progression through the aircrew insignia levels is possible, using a formula similar to the Observer progression"

The difference in the badge design generally indicates that the wearer is a back-seater, not a front-seater.

Yeah, why not have people with an Air Crew badge... train to do all these things?  It seems like there are plenty of tasks (as you have listed here) for them to do... and to lay out a progression for them.

On top of that... the position could still be a starting point for those who want to become observers/pilots.

[arajca]

Even if an Air Crew badge did exist though...  wouldn't pilots/observers still start out in the scanner position?

That wouldn't have to change... would it?

Not necessarily.
To quote my proposal:
"The Air Crew positions are fairly self explanatory. Mission Scanner is an entry level position and progresses to Mission Observer. Highbird Radio Operator is another entry level position, but does not have a progression track. The various ARCHER and aerial imagery qualifications involve significant training and practice. Progression through the aircrew insignia levels is possible, using a formula similar to the Observer progression"

The difference in the badge design generally indicates that the wearer is a back-seater, not a front-seater.

Is HRO even a qual or is it an MRO in an airplane?

It is a planned qualification. Ref CAPR 60-3, Sect. 2-3, para f.

I figured I'd add it in the proposal now since it is listed in CAPR 60-3, rather than wait until the training gets developed.

[PHall]

A C-130 and a C-141 have nothing in common with a C-182!

Really?   You mean they do not fly because of the Bournulli effect?

[ColonelJack]

So what I am saying is f you are happy being a Mission Scanner and you have no desire to move beyond that GREAT!  I just dont think you need a badge.  We all know once we approve scanner wings, we will need Senior Scanner and Master Scanner wings.  Please..........

Um, not necessarily.  "Senior Scanner" would be ... Observer.  Wouldn't it?

However....
If CAP does move on with making scanner wings make it a head in a barf bag with lightening bolts coming out of their ears

Now that is funny!

Jack

[Flying Pig]

So what I am saying is f you are happy being a Mission Scanner and you have no desire to move beyond that GREAT!  I just dont think you need a badge.  We all know once we approve scanner wings, we will need Senior Scanner and Master Scanner wings.  Please..........

Um, not necessarily.  "Senior Scanner" would be ... Observer.  Wouldn't it?

However....
If CAP does move on with making scanner wings make it a head in a barf bag with lightening bolts coming out of their ears

Now that is funny!

Jack

I dunno.....  go from Master Scanner or even COMMAND SCANNER to basic Observer?  Who would dare give up the wreath and star on the Commander Scanner Wings for just a plain old set of observer wings?  Certainly not I. That would be like going from CMSgt to 2Lt!!

[supertigerCH]

So what I am saying is f you are happy being a Mission Scanner and you have no desire to move beyond that GREAT!  I just dont think you need a badge.  We all know once we approve scanner wings, we will need Senior Scanner and Master Scanner wings.  Please..........

Um, not necessarily.  "Senior Scanner" would be ... Observer.  Wouldn't it?

However....
If CAP does move on with making scanner wings make it a head in a barf bag with lightening bolts coming out of their ears

Now that is funny!

Jack

I dunno.....  go from Master Scanner or even COMMAND SCANNER to basic Observer?  Who would dare give up the wreath and star on the Commander Scanner Wings for just a plain old set of observer wings?  Certainly not I. That would be like going from CMSgt to 2Lt!!

That's true... some people might feel like it's going backwards (to start work toward another badge).  Is it really though?

My example comes from the Army... since that's where my past experience lies.  If a soldier there was a helicopter crew member (Crew Chief) for many years... and then decided to go to Warrant Officer school to become a pilot (who wears different wings)... would he really be going backward?  In most ways becoming a pilot would be a step up... unless a person just loved the particular job of being a Crew Chief.


Unless you're just joking... which I'm starting to think you might be.   

[arajca]

So what I am saying is f you are happy being a Mission Scanner and you have no desire to move beyond that GREAT!  I just dont think you need a badge.  We all know once we approve scanner wings, we will need Senior Scanner and Master Scanner wings.  Please..........

Um, not necessarily.  "Senior Scanner" would be ... Observer.  Wouldn't it?

My proposal has scanners progressing to observer, so the scanner would not have senior or command/master wings. Most other aircrew (AP, ARCHERs, GEIIPS, GF, etc) would have progression to senior and master as those involve alot more technical expertise.

[flyboy53]

Here's simple answer - be currently qualified for whatever rating (MP, MO, MS, GTM, GTL, IC, etc.). Not current - don't get to wear the badge. We already have requirements for maintaining currency. Perhaps build in a "after XX years of currency, the badge/wings/bling becomes a permenant award" clause.

Not unreasonable, but then to be fair you'd have to require the same of military badges, and then you'd have people saying "Well the military awards them
permanently, so they are permanent..." From there you've got a bunch of people wearing badges that have nothing to do with CAP, and members who
earned CAP badges not able to wear anything.

Good suggestion, but not practical. You can go into e-services now and submit a request through channels to make your wings permanent. It's the same with a ground team badge. It's not fair to make an individual take a badge off if they're not current because of what time they invested to earn the badge in the first place.

I really think that the observer rating may need to be re-examined given all the new special areas like AP, ARCHER, or SDIS. Perhaps granting a scanner or aircrew badge is the best solution, especially for those individuals who are only badge hunting. The Air Force, after all, does have an officer aircrew badge (see below). The last time I looked at the requirements for this badge,  I though they were kind of broad. In other words, when the badge was introduced, I was amazed at the number of senior officers who pursued it.

On the other hand, an observer rating in the military is a very broad rating...it can be anything from navigator to bombadier to radar gunner or operator. Air Force officers who served as mission specialists aboard the Shuttle were granted an observer rating and wore navigator wings. There was even a technical observer rating that involved rated pilots who peformed technical duties in relation to an aircrew. Perhaps the real solution is to broaden the observer rating and allow scanners to wear observer wings, but knowing the full limitations of that rating when assigning aircrew duties during a mission. After all, an observer can also serve as the mission commander by regulation.

[andysum15]

the Royal Air Force only issues the double wing to pilots all other aircrew members have the half wing, with a letter showing what position they hold for example N - Navigator, LM - Load Master, AT - Airbourne Technician. So why not similar for CAP as all the aircrew rolls are becoming more and more specialized. I recently qualified as Observer but would love to see other aircrew positions be award wings of some sort. It is a great achievement so why not reward them. Members should also keep their wings even if the qual runs out. Ops Quals 101T card shows if you are current. GT badge is for life but doesn't mean you are current.
So yes wings for scanners and air photographer.

[supertigerCH]

always wearing a badge (for life) would be nice.  people do put a lot into getting them.

[ColonelJack]

Members should also keep their wings even if the qual runs out. Ops Quals 101T card shows if you are current. GT badge is for life but doesn't mean you are current.
So yes wings for scanners and air photographer.

Did I miss something?  When I earned my Senior Observer wings (1995), it was understood that once awarded, always worn.  I was out of CAP for 12 years, rejoining in 2009 ... and I have been wearing my wings ever since.  I've recently re-qualified as far as basic observer, but - as they say here in the South - there ain't no way I'm going back to the old wings.

Unless, of course, regulations say I have to.  If there's a reg that says one must have current quals for the wings they wear, I'd very much appreciate a cite.

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^That's my understanding too.  I got my Observer wings in '01, and I'm not current right now but I still wear them.

However, I believe General Courter was an Observer but she isn't wearing the wings in any picture I ever saw of her.