Wings (Air Crew Badge) for Scanners?

[supertigerCH]

We could just use the existing wings.

Abandon the "command pilot" based on hours, that few ever get near, and adopt the same practice as the ground badge.

Scanner - plain wings.

Observer - Wing with star.

MP - wings with wreath.

Hmm... that way doesn't sound too bad either.

(although someone mentioned "other" pilots would have to be taken into consideration.  that's okay... these are all just ideas anyway  )

[754837]

Out of curiosity, when the discussion were happening about Observer wings, did anyone bring up the point that if we had wings for Observers, then what about everyone else?  And were there people who poo-pooed the idea?

It probably would have solved a lot of problems by just having wings for the people that wiggle the yoke.

Sounds like a fine idea!

[Spaceman3750]

Out of curiosity, when the discussion were happening about Observer wings, did anyone bring up the point that if we had wings for Observers, then what about everyone else?  And were there people who poo-pooed the idea?

It probably would have solved a lot of problems by just having wings for the people that wiggle the yoke.

Sounds like a fine idea!

Yes, only the zipper-suited sun gods are worthy of badges. That makes perfect sense.

[supertigerCH]

That's definitely another approach to it -- a way that would be easy & straightforward.



Only pilots with wings and no one else.

It's not very common to do it that way (in just about all other agencies, or branches of the military).  However, it definitely is one way that you could do it... and it would be a very simple solution.

[SarDragon]

In the Navy, just about anyone who flies and gets paid for it has wings, even if they don't wiggle the yoke/stick. In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that there are more non-pilots getting paid to fly than there are pilots. Thinking a little farther on that, the same likely applies to the AF, too.

[lordmonar]

That is definitely another approach to it, and a way that would be very easy and straightforward.  Only pilots with wings and no one else.

It's not too common to do it that way... in just about all other agencies, or in any branches of the military.  However... it definitely is one way that you could do it (and it would be a very simple solution).

??

Well the simple solution is to do nothing.

If a scanner wants some wings...get his pilot's license or do the MO training.
I guess what the argument is really about is......do Scanners RATE a badge? 
That argument has not really been hashed out yet IMHO.

If they do....then the following question is do they get their own badge or do mess up all the wing wearers by completely reinventing the wheel?

If you think that Scanner do Rate a Badge.....okay....I would suggest that they just get the Observer Badge.
Change the Senior Observer requirments to include having to get an additional aircrew rateing (MO, AP, ARCHER, Etc) in addition to the 100 hours....and I would be happy.

[lordmonar]

In the Navy, just about anyone who flies and gets paid for it has wings, even if they don't wiggle the yoke/stick. In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that there are more non-pilots getting paid to fly than there are pilots. Thinking a little farther on that, the same likely applies to the AF, too.

+1

A C-130 crew has 2 pilots, 1 flight engineer, 1 navigator, 1 load master......as a minimumn.

Add all the flight surgions, flight nurses, sensor operators, gunners, Air Battle Managers, INTEL guys, FLYING MAINTAINERS.....and I would not be suprised that there are more non pilots with flying pay and wings then pilots.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In the Navy, just about anyone who flies and gets paid for it has wings, even if they don't wiggle the yoke/stick.

All of the above are worn by the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard (with the exception of Flight Surgeon/Nurse), though I'm not sure if USCG wears the NFO wings...I know one who did but he earned them in the Navy.  None of the above are pilots.

A C-130 crew has 2 pilots, 1 flight engineer, 1 navigator, 1 load master......as a minimumn.

Are navigators still used by the C-130J?  I was under the impression that they had been cybernetically retired.

I've talked to quite a few LM's...what a job, and it would stink for me as I hate numbers, equations, etc.  I had a long chat with an AFRES C-130 LM (TSgt) some years ago...she was a brainiac, make no mistake.

[davidsinn]

Out of curiosity, when the discussion were happening about Observer wings, did anyone bring up the point that if we had wings for Observers, then what about everyone else?

When those discussions where held there were only pilots and observers.

[Grumpy]

+1

Expand the crew wings to Aerial Photographers and Mission Scanners.  Most of their job is in the air.  In fact I've had to work harder as an AP than I ever did as a Scanner.

I already have Observer wings, so this isn't a bling quest.  It just seems right.

I agree whole heartedly.  We could use binoculars with wings attached.

[Flying Pig]

 Scanner wings???    Getting scanner wings would be easier than getting a membership ribbon!  Id say if a scanner wants wings, then they need to become qualified observers. I wouldnt compare CAP to the military on this issue.  Scanner isnt aircrew.   The position isnt even required.   Its a way to get new members in the aircraft quickly. In my opinion a member who has settled into being a scanner is shorting themselves and the program.  Offering wings to a career scanner only encourages stagnation in that slot.  Other than the lack of motivation why would a scanner NOT want to move into the Observer seat?  So to argue the point, No, I dont believe the scanner job rates a set of wings. Lets face it, when the W&B goes over, its not the observer who gets left behind!!   In the military aircrew load masters, navigators, gunners, srent the same. The aircraft does not fly without them.  In CAP we fly without scanners all the time. As an MP Id rather leave them to have better performance most of the time. 
If your a sanner/ aerial photographer or a scanner/ archer operator I would say thats great, but now its time for you to take that final step and be the master of your trade and get your Observer on!!!

[arajca]

So, how do justify that attitude if the scanner is prevented from getting flight time because all the MOs and MPs are taking the front seats? or you have a, heaven forbid, a scanner who is not a pilot that has the gall to want to move to the front seat?

Scanner is as much aircrew as the GOBs in the front seats. The pilot's job is to drive the plane and avoid the edges of the sky. That's it. The scanner provides the eyes outside on the left side of the aircraft.

[Flying Pig]

No,  the Observers job is ultimately to search.  The Scanner is a luxury when we have them and the aircraft performance specs can handle it.  Ive left a few scanners behind because the aircraft performance (flying the the Sierra) or gone on missions without them because we didnt have them.  That tells me they are not essential crew.  Ive never flown a mission without at Observer.  Would I have loved to have an MS on every flight?  Sure,  but it didnt always happen.  If a scanner is having issues getting front seat time then thats something that needs to be addressed by their chain of command.  That issue doesnt justify CAP creating wings for them.

I would view CAP flying more like LE flying, not compare it to the military.  I have a pilot (me) and my observer (flight officer).  If I have extra set of eyes to throw in the back sure, go for it.  But I never leave without my observer.

[bosshawk]

Don't have any personal knowledge of the crews on AF C-130Js, but the Marines carry four: two pilots and two loadmasters.  I was under the impression that the AF no longer carries navigators on any of their cargo aircraft.  I went to Korea in 1996 on an AFRES C-5A and it didn't carry a nav: in fact, I flew in the nav seat for takeoffs and landings.  Talk about a long trip!!!!!!

[PHall]

Air Force C-130J's normally have a crew of three. 2 pilots and a loadmaster.
Usually a second loadmaster is carried to speed up the loading and unloading of cargo and to help monitor the passengers.

The Special Operations MC-130J's carry Navigators, but that's because of their unique mission.


On the C-141B/C, we had a Navigator position on the aircraft. But we only carried a Navigator on airdrop missions and on missions that went above 60 degrees North or below 60 degrees South latitude.

[754837]

A C-130 and a C-141 have nothing in common with a C-182!

[RogueLeader]

A C-130 and a C-141 have nothing in common with a C-182!

Understood. However, all those personnel wear wings of some sort, not just the pilots. That being the case, scanners should have wings too.

[Ed Bos]

^ "All those personnel" have a lot more training and a do a lot more than a CAP scanner does to get their "rating," and earn their wings.

I honestly don't think scanner qualification merits wings. Let's save badges for crew-members who put in the effort for the additional training and additional ratings.

[Flying Pig]

Again, comparing a load master or a navigator getting wings has nothing to do with a CAP sanner getting wings.  Those military badges are for people who are critical to the operation and the plane doesnt fly without them. A CAP scanner isnt the same way. 

[biomed441]

Just an opinion here, though I'll agree with Flying Pig a bit with the concept that scanners are "non-essential".  Valuable when circumstances allow for it but as long as you have an MO and MP you can effectively manage a mission.  Taking some of the search duties away from the MO so he/she can focus on getting the plane to its target or search area and effectively managing communications is a luxury which can not always be afforded. 

That said I think scanners who have qualified in another aircrew specialty such as AP, Archer, etc... may be worth looking into some kind of aircrew badge... Perhaps a different shape or style of wing similar to how the Navy combat aircrew badge has "wings" on it but they are clearly not pilot wings or nav wings or what have you.  Just my 2 cents, YMMV.