Wings (Air Crew Badge) for Scanners?

[supertigerCH]

arajca... you are better at explaining things than I am... and worded that much better than I did. 


thanks!! 

[Eclipse]

Here's simple answer - be currently qualified for whatever rating (MP, MO, MS, GTM, GTL, IC, etc.). Not current - don't get to wear the badge. We already have requirements for maintaining currency. Perhaps build in a "after XX years of currency, the badge/wings/bling becomes a permenant award" clause.

Not unreasonable, but then to be fair you'd have to require the same of military badges, and then you'd have people saying "Well the military awards them
permanently, so they are permanent..." From there you've got a bunch of people wearing badges that have nothing to do with CAP, and members who
earned CAP badges not able to wear anything.

[supertigerCH]

Hmm... I see your point Eclipse.


Maybe a good compromise to address that... is arajca's suggestion... of there being a way to make the badges eventually become permanent on the uniform (after 5 or 10 years of staying current).

Then in a way similar to military badges (which normally also have to be kept current while a person is serving)... CAP would also have a way to wear them permanently... after a period of service.

[jayleswo]

Scanner is important but it is a stepping stone to more advanced ratings and I would prefer that earning wings be an incentive to completing the requirements for MO. Otherwise, what next? A UDF badge? An MSA badge? -- John

[FlyTiger77]

Then in a way similar to military badges (which normally also have to be kept current while a person is serving)...

I don't know about the other services, but in the Army you keep the wings as long as you don't do something to cause them to be taken away. Currency has nothing to do with it. Make 5 jumps* as a lieutenant or private and wear jump wings for the rest of your career whether you ever jump again or not.

*and subsequently graduate from Airborne School, of course

Scanner is important but it is a stepping stone to more advanced ratings and I would prefer that earning wings be an incentive to completing the requirements for MO. Otherwise, what next? A UDF badge? An MSA badge? -- John

What is the purpose for awarding badges? Is it to recognize accomplishment, recognize participation in potentially hazardous duty or is it to be used as a carrot? It strikes me as strange that we would put three people in an airplane and call them an aircrew, but only give two of them wings to denote their aircrew involvement.

I guess we could restyle Scanner as Mission Observer (Trainee), but that seems odd, too.

In my mind, the MS participates in the aircrew and should be recognized with the same aircrew badge as an MO. To use what I know, an Army crew chief wears the same wings as a flight engineer and (when we had them) flying artillery FOs [see GEN Tommy Franks].

If someone only has the time and energy to devote to becoming a qualified (and quality) MS, what is wrong with that? Now, if someone decides to take the training, get the wings and never fly again, that is a leadership issue and not an award/badge issue.

[lordmonar]

I don't understand what the heart burn is about for the so called "badge" trolls.

The badge is there to recognise the effort and skills of our member.....if you want more effort out of them....change the requirements to earn the badge.

It is not rocket science.


As for the OP......If we want to recognise the efforts and skills of our MS.....then just award the Observer wing to the MS.

Personally I would do away with MS rateing altogether and change it so those skills/flights are added to the FAM and PREP skills of the other rateings MP, MO, AP, ARCHER etc.

Change the name of the obersver wings to "aircrew wings" but keep the O for historical value....and saveings at Vanguard.

[supertigerCH]

Hi FlyTiger,

Good point about airborne jump wings in the army.  There definitely are some examples of badges that people can earn... and wear for life.

You also raised a good question... about the purpose of a badge.  is it to recognize skills/accomplishment... or is it to be used as a "carrot" on the end of a stick?  Good question...  and important to consider when thinking about all this.

[Eclipse]

Personally I would do away with MS rateing altogether and change it so those skills/flights are added to the FAM and PREP skills of the other rateings MP, MO, AP, ARCHER etc.

I'd sign that, except that "Scanner" is still a viable and necessary position on an aircrew doing a visual search.  Not all aircrew missions are DR.

[Eclipse]

Scanner is important but it is a stepping stone to more advanced ratings and I would prefer that earning wings be an incentive to completing the requirements for MO. Otherwise, what next? A UDF badge? An MSA badge?

UDF - Yes.  UDF is not a stepping stone to GT by a long shot.

MSA - Yes.  We've discussed a mission staff badge to recognize all of the important support roles that do not have a badge.

And again, Scanner is not a "stepping stone".

[supertigerCH]

Personally I would do away with MS rateing altogether and change it so those skills/flights are added to the FAM and PREP skills of the other rateings MP, MO, AP, ARCHER etc.

I'd sign that, except that "Scanner" is still a viable and necessary position on an aircrew doing a visual search.  Not all aircrew missions are DR.

True... some missions will still have a need for scanners, even if other aircrew (ARCHER qualified, etc.) are not needed.

In those situations... couldn't any of those air crew members who are trained in the "scanner  tasks" (as part of FAM/PREP skills for their other ratings)... step in and perform those scanner functions?

[Eclipse]

In those situations... couldn't any of those air crew members who are trained in the "scanner  tasks" (as part of FAM/PREP skills for their other ratings)... step in and perform those scanner functions?

From the aircrew pool, yes.  In the airplane during the sortie, no.

An MO or MP could certainly accept the assignment as a Scanner for a visual search mission, but just as many GT's are not excited about UDF tasking,
even more so are MPs and MOs happy about sitting in the back, while I know any number of members who enjoy being scanners and have no interest in the front seat duties.  Some have eagle-like vision but don't multi-task well, which is essential for an MO.

[CAP_Marine]

I also find it odd that scanners are not recognized with bling and support the aircrew wing idea. As previously stated, scanner, just as UDF, has just as much potential to be a stand alone qual as it does a stepping stone. Taking into account the arguments supporting recognition of aerial photographers, ARCHER operators, etc., perhaps a compromise could be a separate aircrew wing, and make senior and master ratings possible through additional quals (ie a MS with AP and ARCHER would rate a set of master level aircrew wings) instead of a set number of sorties. Perhaps a combination of # of quals and time in the seat might work as well. I don't think it would be overly costly to add "AC" into the center circle of the observer wings, ala the USN/USMC air crew wings.

I don't know that it would be fair to "downgrade" (no maliciousness implied) the observer wings to act as a catch all. Observers have earned their wings and should get to keep them and the recognition implied. A UDF badge of some sort is also somewhat intriguing to me, but that is another discussion.

[supertigerCH]

Sounds like CAP_Marine has another another pretty good suggestion/alternative.


There seem like a few different ways this could be done (if it ever is)...

[lordmonar]

Personally I would do away with MS rateing altogether and change it so those skills/flights are added to the FAM and PREP skills of the other rateings MP, MO, AP, ARCHER etc.

I'd sign that, except that "Scanner" is still a viable and necessary position on an aircrew doing a visual search.  Not all aircrew missions are DR.

I understand....but if the "scanner skills" are part of just about every other aircrew position then you solve a lot of problems. More APs, more ARCHER OPERATORS, MORE MO's.

If you don't want to be a front seat MO....then you are an AP.......even if you don't actually take photos.....but why would you not take photos on a SAR mission. If you want to be a front seat guy you go directly to the MO SQTR.

[Eclipse]

If you don't want to be a front seat MO....then you are an AP.......even if you don't actually take photos.....but why would you not take photos on a SAR mission. If you want to be a front seat guy you go directly to the MO SQTR.

Because in a SAR you're supposed to be looking for the "thing" that's lost, not taking photos of it.
Maybe you don't want to take pictures, maybe it makes you sick, maybe you take lousy photos, etc., etc.

[supertigerCH]

If there ever were to be a separate Air Crew badge (wings)...

Probably would be best... to stick to a design that is similar to the other 2 "wing" badges CAP already has.  How to make it similar... and yet "different" enough?


Maybe something like this?



WING TYPES:

1.  Pilot = Center circle has triangle & propeller.

2.  Observer = Center circle has triangle & propeller with "O"

3.  Air Crew = Center circle has triangle only (nothing else.  very basic)

[Eclipse]

We could just use the existing wings.

Abandon the "command pilot" based on hours, that few ever get near, and adopt the same practice as the ground badge.

Scanner - plain wings.

Observer - Wing with star.

MP - wings with wreath.

[Spaceman3750]

We could just use the existing wings.

Abandon the "command pilot" based on hours, that few ever get near, and adopt the same practice as the ground badge.

Scanner - plain wings.

Observer - Wing with star.

MP - wings with wreath.

What do you do with all the miscellaneous pilots (O-flight pilots for example)? Right now the requirement for the pilot badge is be a CAP VFR pilot, nothing more IIRC.

[Eclipse]

We could just use the existing wings.

Abandon the "command pilot" based on hours, that few ever get near, and adopt the same practice as the ground badge.

Scanner - plain wings.

Observer - Wing with star.

MP - wings with wreath.

What do you do with all the miscellaneous pilots (O-flight pilots for example)? Right now the requirement for the pilot badge is be a CAP VFR pilot, nothing more IIRC.

Ugh - there's always somebody.

OK.

F5 pilots get the regular pilot wings.

MP's get the wings with a star.

Scanners and specialists get the standard observer wings.

Observers get the Observer wings with the star.

[bflynn]

Out of curiosity, when the discussion were happening about Observer wings, did anyone bring up the point that if we had wings for Observers, then what about everyone else?  And were there people who poo-pooed the idea?

It probably would have solved a lot of problems by just having wings for the people that wiggle the yoke.