FO, TFO, SFO, and SM

[DarthAggie]

Looking at the 4 different epaulets, for each of the respective ranks, I have a question about seniority...

Between those 4 ranks, how would those ranks be lined up, in regards to which ones have the higher ranks?

I'm thinking (from bottom to top)...

FO
TFO
SFO
SM

...then 2LT, and so on...

Any thoughts...?

[SARDOC]

Senior Member is actually Junior to the Flight Officer grades.  Before a member can become a flight officer they have to spend at least three months as a senior member until the can promote to flight officer.

[Salty]

The FO ranks are for former cadets who earned milestone awards and regular senior members who are under the age of 21.

FO = 2nd Lt (Mitchell)
TFO = 1st Lt (Earhart)
SFO = Capt (Spaatz)

They all outrank SM.

[coudano]

The FO ranks are for former cadets who earned milestone awards and regular senior members who are under the age of 21.

FO = 2nd Lt (Mitchell)
TFO = 1st Lt (Earhart)
SFO = Capt (Spaatz)

They all outrank SM.

FO doesn't really equal 2d Lt

a SM 2d Lt out ranks a SFO



But, in order of progression,   SM, FO, TFO, SFO

[Salty]

How do you figure that?

The only difference is one person is under 21 and the other person is over 21.  There's a slight difference in time in grade requirements but that's about it based on what I'm looking at in 35-5.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The FO ranks are for former cadets who earned milestone awards and regular senior members who are under the age of 21.

FO = 2nd Lt (Mitchell)
TFO = 1st Lt (Earhart)
SFO = Capt (Spaatz)

They all outrank SM.

Or people who join too old to be a cadet but not yet 21. Regs (supposedly because of AF)  won't let us give <21 officer grade

[ßτε]

Also note that a SM without grade does not wear epaulet insignia of any sort.

[Spaceman3750]

And, just to make this perfectly clear...

Flight Officers ARE senior members. They ARE NOT "sort of cadets" or "technically maybe senior members". They are FULL, living, breathing, seniors with all privileges and responsibilities.

[Salty]

Bah, you're not a SM until you get the butter bars.

[ßτε]

How do you figure that?

The only difference is one person is under 21 and the other person is over 21.  There's a slight difference in time in grade requirements but that's about it based on what I'm looking at in 35-5.

It's the TIG requirements that do not equate.
TIG as TFO counts the same as TIG as 2d Lt, not as 1st Lt.
TIG as SFO counts the same as TIG as 1st Lt, not as Capt.

[Salty]

Right, but I was looking at the skill requirements for each.

[lordmonar]

One of the reasons why I think we either need to do away with the fligh officer ranks.....or make them part of the normal progression for all members.

[coudano]

How do you figure that?

The only difference is one person is under 21 and the other person is over 21.  There's a slight difference in time in grade requirements but that's about it based on what I'm looking at in 35-5.

35-5 only discusses how you get appointed to the various grades.
It doesn't talk about the "authority relationships".

Arguably there aren't any, anyway...  so we're talking basically about rendering customs and courtesies here.  Do you suppose a 2d Lt would salute a SFO?


I don't think any CAP regulation actually defines this clearly.
However generally speaking, a CAP Officer 'commissioned' (2LT-MG)
would outrank any "un-commissioned" (SMWOG & FO-SFO)
and any non-commissioned (SSgt-CMSgt)



SFO is actually (roughly) equivalent to 1st Lt insofar as experience and requirements.  You need to be an SFO (or 1st lt) for 18 months total or combined, in order to pin Captain on your 21st birthday.  **didn't used to be that way, the equal signs you drew used to be pretty much right, but not anymore.

--unless you were a prior Spaatz cadet, of course

[Spaceman3750]

The TIG might be wonky, but the skill level for FO progression is actually higher. While FO requires half the time that 2nd. Lt. does, TFO requires a technician rating while being roughly "equivalent" to 2nd Lt. - which does not require a tech rating. SFO requires Level II, which is roughly equivalent to 1st. Lt, which only requires a tech rating, not LVII. Note that I'm basing my equivalencies on what you revert to when you turn 21.

[Salty]

I became a TFO when I switched from cadet to senior so I guess that's why I look at it the way I do.  I've always come at this from a former cadet's perspective.

To answer your question, as a matter of personal principle I would salute a butter bar as a TFO.

[coudano]

The TIG might be wonky, but the skill level for FO progression is actually higher. While FO requires half the time that 2nd. Lt. does, TFO requires a technician rating while being roughly "equivalent" to 2nd Lt. - which does not require a tech rating. SFO requires Level II, which is roughly equivalent to 1st. Lt, which only requires a tech rating, not LVII. Note that I'm basing my equivalencies on what you revert to when you turn 21.

However, If you switch to TFO after having been an Earhart cadet, you now come with a free/automatic technician rating in CP.

[JeffDG]

Honestly, does it really matter in an organization where a Capt. is in command of a squadron where a Maj Gen is a member thereof?

Authority among SMs, most of the time, derives from position, not grade.

[DarthAggie]

I guess this is the reason why I asked...

http://www.vanguardmil.com/sr-grade-epaulets-male-epaulets-c-6_2513_405_2035_2039.html

They look like they're in a specific order, but I wasn't sure.

Now, if I wear the Senior Member epaulet (left of 2LT), then that would technically be under the ranks of FO, TFO, & SFO...?

[Eclipse]

Now, if I wear the Senior Member epaulet (left of 2LT), then that would technically be under the ranks of FO, TFO, & SFO...?

No.  It says "Senior Member Enlisted".



Supposedly the intention was for senior members who choose to wear their NCO-equivalent grade from another service to pin
that grade on the epaulet, however that idea was never fully implemented (they just wear USAF stripes, regardless of the
service they earned their grade).

Since then, misinformed commanders have been telling new members they should wear blank epaulet sleeves until they attain
a CAP grade appointment.

SMWOG do not wear anything on their epaulets - that's why they wear the cutouts on their collars (blues).

[DarthAggie]

OK.

I see that.

But what would a Senior Member wear, who's over the age of 21, before receiving 2LT (for that 6 month period)?