CAP Talk

Just wondering...


How about creating an emblem/badge for our CAP members who are well trained in a medical profession... but who are not Medical Doctors, Nurses, or EMT-Paramedics?

Some wonderful badges have already been created for those members.

CAP could certainly benefit from people such as Certified Nurse's Assistants (CNAs), Medical Assistants, and other types of specialists who work in today's hospitals and clinics.

Although they are not as highly trained as a doctor or nurse... their work is still very important in making modern medical care possible.  It seems appropriate... that we could find a way to recognize their specialized skills within the medical profession as well.


Perhaps a badge for Certified Nurse Assistants and other medical specialists... could be exactly like the nurse badge... but instead of the letter "N" in the circle at the top... it could just have a medical cross (the type of crosses we see, usually red in color... on hospitals, or on an ambulance).  On the badge, it would not have to be red though.  I'm just describing the type of cross.

Or perhaps another design would be appropriate.  Anyone have any ideas?


CAP's active duty counterpart, the U.S. Air Force has many types of medical specialists who are not doctors or nurses... yet their skills are still valuable to the Air Force.  Of course, as a civilian auxiliary, CAP would never have as many types of medical specialists as we find in the active & reserve Air Force.  Recognition of people who fall into this category would still seem to be appropriate, though.

I myself have no connection to the medical field, but I have always had great respect for the work that they do... a for what they can contribute to CAP.  This is just something that has come to my mind every so often. 


What are everyone's thoughts?  No matter what everyone's opinion is... I think we can all agree that these people bring a very important skill set & diversity of talent to CAP units.


Thoughts?  Responses?  Additional ideas?   Please share!

CAP doesn't have a medical program in anyway shape or form.  Health Officer specialty track doesn't even do anything.  The fact that we even recognize Doctors Nurses, EMTs and paramedics can be misleading and is mostly for recruiting efforts. Not much reason to develope an entire array of badges for a specialty CAP doesn't even remotely dabble in.   I've been a cop for 17 yrs. how about a special pin for me and maybe a fireman pin to?   Seriously...... It's about that relevant.

Many moons ago, when a HSO specialty track was being discussed, this topic came up. What skills would a non-MD, non-Nurse, non-EMT bring that would be used in CAP given the restrictions CAP has on medical service?

In the Air Force, these Health Service personnel actually have duties related to their certifications.

Let's take this notion a bit further - what about fire fighters and law enforcement personnel? The AF has these as well, but CAP does not provide for badges for those personnel. This discussion can continue ad nauseum.

Hi arajca & Flying Pig,


Thanks for the input.  I do realize CAP does not have its own medical program, and didn't mean to suggest that it did.  You are both correct in saying that this is more of a recruiting effort (and a way of recognizing the skills these people indirectly bring into a CAP unit... just by being around)... than it is to show an actual skill that is used during CAP missions.

What should this mean then... that CAP should take these badges away from all who are wearing them?  I suppose in principle that would be okay, if that's what was decided (for the reasons you have both shared).


As far as a badge for you as a police officer (or for those who are fire fighters)... if for any reason CAP decided to created them, you wouldn't get a complaint, from me anyway.  As you have pointed out though, this again doesn't tie into the overall mission of CAP.

My posting of this thread was more along the lines of that... since CAP has already (for whatever reason) decided to make badges for medical personnel... would recognizing medical specialists be appropriate along side of recognizing the medical professionals that CAP / National HQ has already decided to recognize?

Perhaps any such badge would not have to be as elaborate as I first suggested.  Instead of looking similar to the doctor & nurse badge... it might be more appropriate to have a "medical specialist" badge look like the EMT/Paramedic badge... only instead of having the 6 armed blue cross in the center, it could have a regular 4 armed blue medical cross.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys... and for helping to get this thread started.

Anyone else have more ideas about this topic?


Please join in!!

I always thought that CAP should have basic, senior, and master levels for the Nurse badges indicating CNA, LPN, and RN similar to what was done with the EMT badge. If we are going to offer a badge for Nurses in the HSO program as a recruiting incentive then it couldnt hurt to include a few more levels of nursing.

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 23, 2015, 01:27:52 AMsince CAP has already (for whatever reason) decided to make badges for medical personnel... would recognizing medical specialists be appropriate along side of recognizing the medical professionals that CAP / National HQ has already decided to recognize?

No, unless you're suggesting that every job that any member has outside of CAP should also have a badge.

You could get rid of the EMT badge today and not hurt my feelings.

GroundHawg,


That is a great idea... and a way of getting to the spirit of my question -- without CAP having to design a new badge.

You're a genius!  That would be a effective way of doing it when it comes to Certified Nurse Assistants.  Much like what was done with the EMT/Paramedic badge.



hi EMT-83,

i'm right with you there.  i don't think i would blink an eye if they got rid of the GT badge tomorrow. 

just throwing out the idea for the sake of discussion, that's all...

I think Supertiger you're missing the point some of us are trying to make: CAP badges should reflect CAP jobs/experience/training. If we had a Health Services program that did something within CAP (say, gave flight physicals or supervised cadets moving out of restricted physical categories into unrestricted categories or practiced up to their licensed level during ES missions) I think you'd have a point.

The Health Services program as it stands does very, very little and has no operational role.

Legal officers wear the legal officer bling when they do law for CAP. I'll betcha there are a lot of lawyers who are CAP members who don't do anything legal within the organization, and like it that way...and don't wear the badge.

I don't think anyone thought you were suggesting we had a more active Health Services program...you never said that. Just that badges ought to reflect the CAP utility of the wearer. While I'd love to consult with a certified nursing assistant during an encampment, CAP doesn't let anyone do anything other than first aid.

This gets especially difficult for paraprofessionals who often practice under the auspices or license of another -- paramedics doing ALS under the medical license of a County medical director, or a Physicians Assistant signing orders under a supervising doctor. In CAP, if you render medical care while trying to practice at that level there is no medical director and no supervising physician, which means you're practicing medicine without a license and CAP is legally exposed. That's why they've limited the Health Services program to the minimal level that it is today...and with a minimal program, there's probably no need to recognize paraprofessionals who can't practice in CAP anyway.

Quote from: ProdigalJim on February 23, 2015, 02:46:36 AM
I think Supertiger you're missing the point some of us are trying to make: CAP badges should reflect CAP jobs/experience/training.

So simple, so clear, and yet...

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 23, 2015, 02:13:16 AM
i'm right with you there.  i don't think i would blink an eye if they got rid of the GT badge tomorrow. 

You suggest creating a badge(s) for skills completely irrelevant to CAP, yet would have no issue losing
the only CAP MOS-style badge most CAP members have a reasonable possibility of attaining?

Excuse the ignorance in this subject, but would a CNA have enough knowledge to qualify as a paramedic, or is that different training altogether? If supertiger is a CNA looking for bling, could he possibly qualify as a medic and be part of a ground team?

A CNA would need to complete Paramedic training regardless of their knowledge to be eligible for the Paramedic badge.

So they may have the knowledge, but not the certification. Makes sense, thanks.

I actually wear my Master Ground Team badge, as it has significance to CAP. EMT badge? Not so much.

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 03:02:06 AMcould he possibly qualify as a medic

In CAP?  No such animal.

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 03:02:06 AM
and be part of a ground team?

Yes, just like anyone else.

"CAP badges should reflect CAP jobs/experience/training."

Agree 100%

For whatever the reasons... CAP has decided to make medical badges, and to allow for their wear.  I'm not completely sure as to all the reasons for it, but it happened... and in that light wondered if other medical specialties might also be covered.

Perhaps the medical badges are a series of badges that CAP should do away with.  That's certainly open to discussion... and is kind of what the purpose of this thread was intended to be.  To discuss all thoughts about it... not to champion the creation and wearing of more Civil Air Patrol badges.

Forgive me if I did a poor job at laying out and explaining what the thread was for.  If I didn't, sorry... "my bad".



As far as not caring too much if the GT badge were to disappear tomorrow... to be honest I wouldn't have a problem if CAP members wore no badges or uniforms at all.

Either way it doesn't make a difference regarding the missions performed... which I think we'd all agree comes down to the quality of the personnel.  I'm not hostile towards badges that are worn for a good reason.  Does the GT badge have more significance to CAP and its mission than the medical badges do?  Absolutely.

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 23, 2015, 03:29:18 AM
For whatever the reasons... CAP has decided to make medical badges, and to allow for their wear.  I'm not completely sure as to all the reasons for it, but it happened... and in that light wondered if other medical specialties might also be covered.

The medical badge was created in the late 1940s after the Army "asked" CAP to stop wearing the Army Medical Branch insignia.  The Medical Officer Badge actually predates in its original form most CAP badges, if not all of them.  Obviously the CAP wings came before the Medical Officer Badge, but they have undergone a number of redesigns to meet what we see today.  At the time and for some time after, physicians were allowed to practice medicine in CAP.  The wear of the Medical Officer and subsequent creation of the Nurse Officer badge was out of tradition after those duties were slowly eroded over time.

You will find that mention of the Health Services Program causes a lot of heartburn on these forums.  It is usually best to steer clear of it and ask the question on other CAP forums/webpages.

While the elimination of the Medical Officer & Nurse Officer is an option, but as of right now they are here so I will not argue that road.  If CAP decides to not eliminate those badges, then a general HSO badge of equal "precedence" should be created.  That is, it should resemble the Medical Officer and the Nurse Officer badge, which I would propose the letter "H" instead of the tri-prop or "N" in the top of the staff.  As it stands now, CAP is unintentionally sending a message that CAP respects the training of Doctors, Nurses, and EMTs but does not recognize the training of other doctoral healthcare providers (DPT, DDS, PhD, AuD, OD, etc) and non-doctoral healthcare providers (PA-C, PA(ASCP), MLS, RD, MPT, etc).  This is especially true with the recent change to the EMT badge to recognize the different levels of EMTs. 

Like everyone regarding uniforms, YMMV as everyone has an opinion on them and can spending pages upon pages upon pages arguing about pointless details.

Of course, some HSOs take offense to this while others do not.  The same was true prior to the creation of the AC Wings.  Some mission scanners took offense, while others did not.  I am sure during the creation of the GT Badge, it was probably the same way.         

Quote from: ProdigalJim on February 23, 2015, 02:46:36 AM
This gets especially difficult for paraprofessionals who often practice under the auspices or license of another -- paramedics doing ALS under the medical license of a County medical director, or a Physicians Assistant signing orders under a supervising doctor. In CAP, if you render medical care while trying to practice at that level there is no medical director and no supervising physician, which means you're practicing medicine without a license and CAP is legally exposed. That's why they've limited the Health Services program to the minimal level that it is today...and with a minimal program, there's probably no need to recognize paraprofessionals who can't practice in CAP anyway.

There's definitely no need to recognize former paraprofessional medics, who can't practice their former field in or out of CAP.  CAP allows previously certified EMTs to wear the EMT badge regardless of how out-of-date we are, but the CPR patch must only be worn by currently certified personnel.   Because, after all, we want to protect the integrity of that CPR patch.

In today's world of PC everyone is a winner so everyone is ENTITLED to Badges, Ribbons, Awards, and Honors.  So why not the CAP as well?  Why not create as many "distinctive" badges as possible so everyone can at least have one?

Next weeks topic will be: If everyone is a winner and everyone is special then who is left for row 2?

Could the big V have some sort of software program on their website, where members could go ahead and create their own badges? That way everyone could have whatever they want, and we can all be winners? For instance, a photographer could have a camera with wings.....a fast food employee could have a burger....with wings? Anything created in this special software would be automatically approved in 39-1, and the new series of badges would comply with the 5th Core Value, Creativity!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I've got my artwork ready. Just waiting on the badge:
(http://www.vinylnirvana.com/wp-content/uploads/top-rated-seller.jpg)

Needs to be on a shield.....or have wings :)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/top-rated-seller.jpg)

My boss doesn't understand why I'm laughing so hard :) :) :)

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/ribbons.jpg (http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/ribbons.jpg)

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
Could the big V have some sort of software program on their website, where members could go ahead and create their own badges? That way everyone could have whatever they want, and we can all be winners? For instance, a photographer could have a camera with wings.....a fast food employee could have a burger....with wings? Anything created in this special software would be automatically approved in 39-1, and the new series of badges would comply with the 5th Core Value, Creativity!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

If it were that simple, we would all be celebrating. It took our squadron almost 2 years to get our patch approved.

Quote from: CadetSnuffy on February 23, 2015, 05:44:21 PM

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
Could the big V have some sort of software program on their website, where members could go ahead and create their own badges? That way everyone could have whatever they want, and we can all be winners? For instance, a photographer could have a camera with wings.....a fast food employee could have a burger....with wings? Anything created in this special software would be automatically approved in 39-1, and the new series of badges would comply with the 5th Core Value, Creativity!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

If it were that simple, we would all be celebrating. It took our squadron almost 2 years to get our patch approved.

Has nothing to do with 39-1.

Sorry.

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
automatically approved

Your squadron patch's lengthy approval duration has nothing to do with 39-1 or VG.

That was a local wing issue. 

Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2015, 05:52:48 PM
Your squadron patch's lengthy approval duration has nothing to do with 39-1 or VG.

That was a local wing issue.

Or a squadron issue.  My wing requires all squadron emblem approvals to be first routed through and recommended by the Wing Historian before approval by Wing Commander.  I reject any emblem that does not follow USAF heraldry rules.  It took 6 months for the last squadron to make the appropriate changes for me to forward the approval recommendation to the Wing Commander.

Pretty much. No full story, so hold up could be squadron, group, wing, etc.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 23, 2015, 06:36:30 PM
I reject any emblem that does not follow USAF heraldry rules. 

Personal preference or command authority granted?

10.7.8. Organizational Patch. Emblem approved by the wing commander for wear by subordinate unit (group, squadron, flight) personnel. Patches designed after the date of this manual will meet the intent of the USAF heraldic guidelines published by the Air Force Historical Research Agency.

From 39-1, quoted from CAP Knowledgebase

Quote from: arajca on February 23, 2015, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on February 23, 2015, 06:36:30 PM
I reject any emblem that does not follow USAF heraldry rules. 

Personal preference or command authority granted?

Both. I talked it over with the wing commander, wrote the policy letter, got it signed by the Wing CC, created and gave a presentation to all squadron commanders, ensured distribution of the policy and presentation, and informed the CAC.

Then the new 39-1 was published and it solidified the rule.

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 03:09:26 AM
So they may have the knowledge, but not the certification. Makes sense, thanks.

A CNA has little to no overlap with a paramedic. CNA'a can take vital signs, maybe preform (but not interpret) EKG's, maybe draw blood. They're the people who take your blood pressure at themail doctors office. Maybe they have some first aid training.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 23, 2015, 06:36:30 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 23, 2015, 05:52:48 PM
Your squadron patch's lengthy approval duration has nothing to do with 39-1 or VG.

That was a local wing issue.

Or a squadron issue.  My wing requires all squadron emblem approvals to be first routed through and recommended by the Wing Historian before approval by Wing Commander.  I reject any emblem that does not follow USAF heraldry rules.  It took 6 months for the last squadron to make the appropriate changes for me to forward the approval recommendation to the Wing Commander.

Good point. My pet peeve was Squadrons who want Group style unit patches because a Group patch (shield) is tacticool like "Top Gun" and the Squadron patch is not so much.   8)

LSThinker,

Thanks for the history & advice about the medical badges (HSO program).  That clears up a lot... and really puts things in perspective.


SMThompson,

"Could the big V have some sort of software program on their website, where members could go ahead and create their own badges? That way everyone could have whatever they want, and we can all be winners?"

Ha!!  Funny... and yet also sad when you stop & think about how true that is nowdays.

What would an optician or a lab tech wear, hmmmmm?

Quote from: AirAux on February 24, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
What would an optician or a lab tech wear, hmmmmm?

Are you asking about what I had proposed?  If so, they would wear the insignia with an "H" as I already described:

Quote from: LSThiker on February 23, 2015, 05:44:02 AM
That is, it should resemble the Medical Officer and the Nurse Officer badge, which I would propose the letter "H" instead of the tri-prop or "N" in the top of the staff.  As it stands now, CAP is unintentionally sending a message that CAP respects the training of Doctors, Nurses, and EMTs but does not recognize the training of other doctoral healthcare providers (DPT, DDS, PhD, AuD, OD, etc) and non-doctoral healthcare providers (PA-C, PA(ASCP), MLS, RD, MPT, etc).  This is especially true with the recent change to the EMT badge to recognize the different levels of EMTs. 

I think it would have been best to state "non-doctoral healthcare professionals" rather than providers.

A big, bold EYE, to much better SEE you!

Quote from: AirAux on February 24, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
What would an optician or a lab tech wear, hmmmmm?

Well the optician glasses I suppose. The lab tech? I could only assume.

Sorry, couldn't resist.   8)

Optician glasses with an apron and gloves?

Lasik laser pin for those pros?

Quote from: JayT on February 24, 2015, 01:29:07 AM

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 03:09:26 AM
So they may have the knowledge, but not the certification. Makes sense, thanks.

A CNA has little to no overlap with a paramedic. CNA'a can take vital signs, maybe preform (but not interpret) EKG's, maybe draw blood. They're the people who take your blood pressure at the doctors office. Maybe they have some first aid training.

Just to put this into perspective as far as training goes:

CNA and EMT programs last about 6 weeks
LPN programs usually take about a year
Paramedic and RN programs usually take about two years and generally lead to an AA

So what's next?  Where does the list of professions which are irrelevant to CAP end in terms of badges?

Academics
Professors
Teachers
Cultural
Clergy
Chiropractors
Dentists
Midwives
Nurses
Occupational therapists
Optometrists
Pathologists
Pharmacists
Physical therapists
Physicians
Psychologists
Speech-language pathologists and audiologists
Surgeons
Veterinarians
Accountants
Actuaries
Agriculturists
Architects
Economists
Engineers
Interpreters
Librarians
Statisticians
Surveyors
Urban planners
Public services
Firefighters
Judges
Military officers
Police officers
Social workers
Transport
Air traffic controllers
Aircraft pilots
Sea captains
Scientists
Astronomers
Biologists
Botanists
Ecologists
Geneticists
Immunologists
Pharmacologists
Virologists
Zoologists
Chemists
Geologists
Meteorologists
Oceanographers
Physicists
Programmers
Web developers
Designers
Graphic designers
Web designers

i think clergy usually do get a badge awarded?

(Chaplain's badge)

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 27, 2015, 05:47:58 PM


i think clergy usually do get awarded some bling?

(Chaplain's badge)

IF they are a Chaplain.

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 27, 2015, 05:47:58 PM


i think clergy usually do get awarded some bling?

(Chaplain's badge)

Blingless, non-chaplain clergy here.

yes... we do understand that it's not automatic.  there is training on the organizational/military side that has to be done before someone wears a badge and is called a chaplain.


(i guess this is kind of equivalent to all the lawyers and EMTs we have walking around in CAP without the badges -- since they decide not to pursue both the positions & the badges).

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 27, 2015, 06:13:06 PM
(i guess this is kind of equivalent to all the lawyers and EMTs we have walking around in CAP without the badges -- since they decide not to pursue both the positions & the badges).

There is no requirement that you hold any CAP position to wear the EMT badge, only that you
have the requisite external certification, etc.

If the skill is not relevant to CAP, then it shouldn't have a CAP badge associated with it.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 06:42:11 PM

Quote from: supertigerCH on February 27, 2015, 06:13:06 PM
(i guess this is kind of equivalent to all the lawyers and EMTs we have walking around in CAP without the badges -- since they decide not to pursue both the positions & the badges).

There is no requirement that you hold any CAP position to wear the EMT badge, only that you
have the requisite external certification, etc.

The EMT Badge is rather nebulous as to what regulation covers it.  Unlike the Medical Officer Badge and the Nurse Officer Badge, which are explicitly controlled by CAPR 160-1, the EMT badge is not. 

If the badge is controlled by CAPR 160-1, then the person is to be in an HSO position in order to qualify for its wear (i.e. a doctor may not wear the Medical Officer Badge unless he/she is appointed as a Medical Officer).  All HSOs must have a current unrestricted license.  However, CAPM 39-1 states that for wear of the EMT badge, the person may either be current or former.   If a person is no longer a current EMT, then they cannot be appointed an HSO, but they are allowed to wear the EMT badge.  Therefore, this is in conflict with the regulations. 

To make matters worse, CAPR 160-1 states that Health Services badges and insignia are described in CAPM 39-1.  If you look at CAPM 39-1, it only lists the Medical Officer Badge and Nurse Officer Badge under Health Services Badge.  For an unknown reason, probably due to ignorance, the EMT badge is listed not as Health Services Badge, but rather Emergency Medicine Badge.  That wording is not in CAPR 160-1. 

Again, the EMT badge is in the need of clarification of whether CAPR 160-1 controls its wear.  If it does, then the line about "former" EMTs need to be removed and it is only restricted to Senior Members appointed in an HSO position.

For now, the Medical Officer and Nurse Officer badges are similar to the Chaplain and Lawyer badges.  If the person is not appointed in their respective position (Chaplain, Lawyer, or Health Services), then they are not to wear the badge.  For personnel to be assigned to the HSO positions, they must be current.

Edit:  Fixed a typo

So much background noise for roles which can't actually do anything specific to their training or education.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 27, 2015, 09:51:19 PM
If the skill is not relevant to CAP, then it shouldn't have a CAP badge associated with it.

+1

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 10:01:31 PM
So much background noise for roles which can't actually do anything specific to their training or education.

They can and do.  Just because they cannot "practice medicine", that does not mean they cannot use their education and/or training.  In fact, they are encouraged to by giving formal advice on health matters to the commander.  This is due to their training and education in the medical sciences.  Would you as a commander take the advice of a person that read on the internet about XYZ or the advice of a person that underwent formal education and schooling to know about XYZ?  So by saying that their training is irrelevant to CAP and that they cannot use it is rather disingenuous.

What CAP mission does a nurse directly impact?

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
What CAP mission does a nurse directly impact?

Cadet Programs

Quote from: LSThiker on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
What CAP mission does a nurse directly impact?

Cadet Programs

I'm not a nurse. How?

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 11:01:30 PM

Quote from: LSThiker on February 27, 2015, 10:56:08 PM

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 27, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
What CAP mission does a nurse directly impact?

Cadet Programs

I'm not a nurse. How?

By acting as an advisor for the commander:

QuoteSome activity or encampment commanders may require forms to be provided in advance for planning purposes. Health service officers advise these commanders on safe participation of members after reviewing CAP 160 series forms and assist in making needed preparations at an activity to make participation as safe as possible for members. The ultimate decision for participation in any activity rests with the commander.

QuotePromote the Air Force's health, wellness and fitness philosophy

QuoteEducate members about and encourage behaviors which result in increased safety, health and wellness including, but not limited to: Read CAPR 160-1 for this list

All of these have a direct impact on the Cadet Programs missions. 

Also, from the Encampment Guide:

QuoteWhat Health Services Officers can do for encampments, apart from
providing emergency care, is to lend their expertise by advising commanders and participants on health, fitness,
disease, and injury prevention topics.

Sorry, that's a lot of rhetoric and that rubber doesn't meet the road.

For starters, there very little need for commanders to be "advised", because that advice is
either going to be in the text, or he's probably looking for permission to do something he shouldn't
be doing.

No adult member in CAP with a lick of sense is going to an HSO for information on their personal health
or fitness, that's why they have personal Drs, and no HSO worth his cert is going to make recommendations
without knowing a person's history.  "Eat less / move more" doesn't require an HSO, and if you tell me
to do deep knee bends and jumping jacks without knowing about my bad knee and compressed disks,
you're putting yourself and the organization at risk.

Likewise for cadets, even moreso.  Members are not coming to CAP for legal advice, medical care, or
to have their faith healed or born.  CAP should stay out of these arenas altogether.

Beyond the general "hydrate / sleep / etc." there nothing an HSO can do that any reasonably
capable parent with first aid training can't, and if they are doing something that exceeds that level,
they are likely violating a reg or common sense some where

As a parent and a compassionate / concerned CAP leader, it brings me some personal level of security to
have medical professionals nearby should a cadet take a header, etc., but at the same time I also
know that if a CAP activity is too far outside 9-1-1, the ORM is probably getting into the "questionable" area.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 11:15:30 PM
Beyond the general "hydrate / sleep / etc." there nothing an HSO can do that any reasonably
capable parent with first aid training can't, and if they are doing something that exceeds that level,
they are likely violating a reg or common sense some where

Well like you said:

Quote from: Eclipse on February 03, 2015, 12:11:47 AM
And the credibility risk is pretty high - nothing worse then someone lecturing about a subject they 1/2-read
on the internet 15 minutes before meeting to people with direct expertise on the subject.

So would I rather trust a person with a formal education in medical science and held to a national standard or a parent that believes woo-woo?

QuoteNo adult member in CAP with a lick of sense is going to an HSO for information on their personal health
or fitness, that's why they have personal Drs, and no HSO worth his cert is going to make recommendations
without knowing a person's history.  "Eat less / move more" doesn't require an HSO, and if you tell me
to do deep knee bends and jumping jacks without knowing about my bad knee and compressed disks,
you're putting yourself and the organization at risk.

Sigh.  No one is saying that they should, not even CAPR 160-1.  There is a difference between educating and making recommendations on personal health.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 27, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
So would I rather trust a person with a formal education in medical science and held to a national standard or a parent that believes woo-woo?

Members don't need to be "trusting" either, since there's noting relevent in a CAP context which isn't already
a part of nationally approved curriculum.

QuoteNo adult member in CAP with a lick of sense is going to an HSO for information on their personal health
or fitness, that's why they have personal Drs, and no HSO worth his cert is going to make recommendations
without knowing a person's history.  "Eat less / move more" doesn't require an HSO, and if you tell me
to do deep knee bends and jumping jacks without knowing about my bad knee and compressed disks,
you're putting yourself and the organization at risk.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 27, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
Sigh.  No one is saying that they should, not even CAPR 160-1.  There is a difference between educating and making recommendations on personal health.

Then there is no need for special recognition to present information on subjects that require no special training to present.

This is the dichotomy NHQ and their lawyers have created.  As you can find on this site, CAP members used to hang IVs in the field,
but until it goes back to that, or HSOs start giving flight physicals to members for free, the recognition serves no purpose.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 27, 2015, 10:08:07 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 10:01:31 PM
So much background noise for roles which can't actually do anything specific to their training or education.

They can and do.  Just because they cannot "practice medicine", that does not mean they cannot use their education and/or training.  In fact, they are encouraged to by giving formal advice on health matters to the commander.  This is due to their training and education in the medical sciences.  Would you as a commander take the advice of a person that read on the internet about XYZ or the advice of a person that underwent formal education and schooling to know about XYZ?  So by saying that their training is irrelevant to CAP and that they cannot use it is rather disingenuous.

Many CAP members have skills which benefit CAP directly or indirectly, yet don't have badges to go with those skills... Nor should they.

I have served as an encampment commander multiple times as well as a couple of tours as an NCSA AD. 

In every instance I have received a great deal of help from HSOs (RNs and a PA) when reviewing medical forms submitted by applicants and their parents.  For example, a parent may disclose that a cadet has condition X.  And it was always helpful to have a HSO advise me on what sort of limitations and restrictions I should anticipate and plan for.  One example that I recall was a cadet diagnosed with "Osgood Schlatter" disease.

Sounded dreadful to me, but after having it explained by my HSO it was perfectly manageable, and the cadet graduated.

I have also benefitted from an HSO's advice when it came to inclement weather (at both ends of the continuum), and assisting during the RST blocks when conducting ORM for a particular activity.

Could I have done my job without an HSO handy?  Probably.  But it was a lot easier to have their expertise available to assist.

YMMV.

I don't think anyone is questioning the experience or training that medical professionals can bring to CAP. The issue is with the way the program is laid out and what the regulations actually allow HSOs to do, which is not much. In addition, not every HSO in CAP has the same training, certifications or experience, which means that just because someone is an HSO doesn't mean they're qualified to perform some of the duties and tasks mentioned.

Quote from: CAPR 160-1Any health professional or technician may qualify for a health service appointment in CAP, provided that proof of current unrestricted licensure, registration, or certification, where such is required by law or regulation, is furnished.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2015, 11:42:38 PM
Members don't need to be "trusting" either, since there's noting relevent in a CAP context which isn't already
a part of nationally approved curriculum.

You mean that same national approved curriculum that lays out how an HSO can be used?

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 27, 2015, 11:52:41 PM
Many CAP members have skills which benefit CAP directly or indirectly, yet don't have badges to go with those skills... Nor should they.

That is true, but never argued the opposite.  In fact, I said that was a path that NHQ could take, but that I was not going to go down that path and discuss it. 

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 28, 2015, 12:05:16 AM
In addition, not every HSO in CAP has the same training, certifications or experience, which means that just because someone is an HSO doesn't mean they're qualified to perform some of the duties and tasks mentioned.

That is true, but CAPR 160-1 already has the answer for that:

Quote from: CAPR 160-1advice or other guidance will be limited to the member's area of expertise, and appropriate consultation should be sought otherwise

Quote from: Ned on February 27, 2015, 11:57:02 PM
One example that I recall was a cadet diagnosed with "Osgood Schlatter" disease.

Sounded dreadful to me, but after having it explained by my HSO it was perfectly manageable, and the cadet graduated.

Medical names always seem to make things sound worse than it really is.  My favorite, one that I have used before, is Medial Tibial Stress Syndrome or simply "Shin Splints".  I told that to someone and they thought my leg was going to fall off.

Until NHQ decides to eliminate the HSO program, I will continue to seek their advise.  Until then gentlemen, have a good weekend.

LSThinker,

You were SO right about this being a sensitive and touchy issue.

I honestly have not been part of this forum long enough to have seen expressed... how strongly people (pro & con) feel about the CAP medical / HSO program. 


If I had known this ahead of time... I would have thought of a different topic to talk about for this thread!

Every HSO I've encountered was given the duty position for the purpose of receiving a quick promotion, and never did anything related to the job.

Value to the organization? Zero.

Quote from: EMT-83 on February 28, 2015, 04:40:37 AM
Every HSO I've encountered was given the duty position for the purpose of receiving a quick promotion, and never did anything related to the job.

Value to the organization? Zero.

Cost to the organization?  Zero.

Not that I'm in favor of a lot of advanced promotions......but doing the cost/benefit analysis of any CAP promotion a near ZERO/ZERO game.

^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:11:27 AM
^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

We got clueless FGOs who have spent 20 years in CAP, earning their rank the "hard" way.  I agree with your general statement that we need to limit advanced promotions.  But until we fix that problem.....complaining about Doctors with major leaves is a little silly.

Quote from: lordmonar on February 28, 2015, 05:42:20 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:11:27 AM
^ No, it's a negative to promote people improperly based on a skill they
can't utilize in CAP, while at the same time people working as hard or more
have to do the full work up.

You wind up with clueless FGOs.

We got clueless FGOs who have spent 20 years in CAP, earning their rank the "hard" way.  I agree with your general statement that we need to limit advanced promotions.  But until we fix that problem.....complaining about Doctors with major leaves is a little silly.

That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:48:51 AM
That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?  :)   8)

Quote from: lordmonar on February 28, 2015, 05:50:32 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:48:51 AM
That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?  :)   8)

Because in that case you're confusing "fix" with "make things worse".

When a ship is taking water on the port side, you don't drill holes in the starboard side to "let it out".

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 06:02:25 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on February 28, 2015, 05:50:32 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:48:51 AM
That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?  :)   8)

Because in that case you're confusing "fix" with "make things worse".

When a ship is taking water on the port side, you don't drill holes in the starboard side to "let it out".

I'd like to know how an NCO corps makes things worse....but we should move that to another thread.  :)

Eclipse-

You may not drill holes water on the starboard side to let the water out, but you do let water in so the boat does not capsize. How deep the water is under the boat is another matter.

>:D

Sorry man, wrong analogy...

Quote from: lordmonar on February 28, 2015, 05:50:32 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 28, 2015, 05:48:51 AM
That's part of the fix.  Status quo is the reason nothing gets fixed.

So why do you give me a hard time about the NCO corps?  :)   8)

Because we still don't know what an NCO is supposed to do that is different from what an officer does. I've been "encouraged" to appoint a Group SNCO Advisor and I'm still trying to figure out what his or her role will be. There's practically zero guidance from above and we're supposed to roll with this program. Not even the current NCOs we have are sure (I've asked a few).

I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

Quote from: shuman14 on February 28, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

I have had this same thought process for awhile.  It could very easily (in the most basic of terms anyway) solve the what do HSO's really do for CAP.  I imagine a "we scratch your back you scratch ours" deal.  CAP's HSO's provide support services to various CONUS USAF needs, USAF agrees to cover the malpractice/liability issue for CAP by using a mission status for CAP HSO's to provide medical care to CAP elements during approved activities (in addition to in actual SAR/DR type missions)

The reality is likely no where that easy.  Coming from the USAF medical service side; trying to get people who you are actually paying money to, to make sure their training/recertification/skill verification etc etc is up to date and uploaded to the right places is at times difficult.  I imagine having the same requirements for folks that are there for free/as they have the time etc etc would produce a less than real number force that the "number"of HSO's out there CAP would say they have....

MK

How many paid medical professionals are going to volunteer their time to treat other paid professionals
while at the same time knowing they are taking another paid professional's job?

That last part won't get us on anyone's Christmas card list, either.

Times of crisis are one thing, normal operations are another, not to mention the non-trivial issue
of command authority over people not covered by UCMJ, and who probably outrank everyone in the room.

And if you want to suggest that members serve in something other then their CAP uniform, and with no
acknowledgement of their CAP grade, like VSAF, then those aren't really CAP members, they are just people
on a mailing list, and they might as well just go up to the VC and volunteer directly and leave CAP out of it.

In fact, owing to the existing prohibitions regarding medical services, they would be better off volunteering
directly without the encumbrances of CAP affiliation. As a "Dr." they can do whatever they want, as a CAP
HSO, they can't.

Quote from: shuman14 on February 28, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Quote from: PHall on March 02, 2015, 12:23:05 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on February 28, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Depends on what you mean my augment.

I also point out that Chaplains are specifically allowed to augment USAF chaplains.

Quote from: lordmonar on March 02, 2015, 01:48:47 AM

Quote from: PHall on March 02, 2015, 12:23:05 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on February 28, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Depends on what you mean my augment.

I also point out that Chaplains are specifically allowed to augment USAF chaplains.

They're the only ones and IIRC that was originated by the Air Force Chaplains.

Quote from: PHall on March 02, 2015, 12:23:05 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on February 28, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
I know that CAP doesn't do a lot of   any agumentation mission for the USAF but this is a mission that could make use of CAP HSO's.

The USCGAux HSO's do this mission regularly for the USCG.

I think its something CAP could/should explore with the USAF.

FTFY

If you care to check the regs you'll see that there's not even a provision for CAP members to augment the USAF at all.

Perhaps not in the regs, but within Federal Law, there is certainly the foundation ---

10 US Code 9442

"(b) Use by Air Force.—
(1) The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force."

And then within 36 US Code, 40302 --

"(5) To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions."

The statements are ambiguous on purpose to allow CAP and the USAF to define what can be performed legally. It's just a matter of the parties sitting down at the table and developing the framework to make "it" work. This means we need RNs and MDs on national staff to drive these types of initiatives, not pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk.

On a more local and realistic front, there is plenty of opportunity for all members, but especially CAP medical staff to develop relationships with their state and local health departments to be integrated into plans such as Mass Prophylaxis, or Point of Dispensing, the medical version of Point of Distribution.

To say there isn't anything for CAP medical staff to do is absurd.

Quote from: LTC Don on March 02, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
To say there isn't anything for CAP medical staff to do is absurd correct.

Fixed that for you. This is a situation that NHQ and its lawyers have crafted over the course
of decades, likely in either direct response to, or in anticipation of, issues caused by the members.
I bet we all have at least one story.

That's not likely to change considering it doesn't need to.  CAP does not have the number of medical
personnel to have anything but an anecdotal impact in that regard, and again, in crisis, those
professionals can respond more quickly and nimby on their own. Why would CAP bother to get in the way?

Quote from: LTC Don on March 02, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
On a more local and realistic front, there is plenty of opportunity for all members, but especially CAP medical staff to develop relationships with their state and local health departments to be integrated into plans such as Mass Prophylaxis, or Point of Dispensing, the medical version of Point of Distribution.

Already being done, does not require medical training, and within the confines of existing regulations, CAP
HSOs would not be allowed to provide medical services during a mission anyway.  Also, fact of the matter is that many
agencies that run PODs need assistance, but they have no interest in engaging people as CAP members when they
can simply engage volunteers directly, which is by far their preference.

Few response plans that would include a POD for medical reasons would tolerate CAP's response inertia.
3/4 of the affected population would already be eating brains by the time a mission number was issued.

Seriously, in an organization where regulations like 900-2 are ignored, do you think NHQ would want to get
involved in the minefield of medical qualification and certification? 

Quote from: LTC Don on March 02, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
This means we need RNs and MDs on national staff to drive these types of initiatives, not pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk.

While I don't disagree with some of your post, health professionals are represented in the National staff through the Chief of CAP Health Service, who reports to the National Commander. Furthermore, the vast majority of Air Force leadership are pilots, so your comment about "pilots who mean well but don't know the lingo or the walk" is not accurate.

Quote from: EMT-83 on February 23, 2015, 02:10:55 AM
You could get rid of the EMT badge today and not hurt my feelings.

I'm a Paramedic, and I second this sentiment.  The CAP should only represent CAP achievements. 

Quote from: S/M Thompson on February 23, 2015, 03:02:06 AM
Excuse the ignorance in this subject, but would a CNA have enough knowledge to qualify as a paramedic, or is that different training altogether? If supertiger is a CNA looking for bling, could he possibly qualify as a medic and be part of a ground team?

CNA doesn't come anywhere close to Paramedic level skills. 

Yup. Right on both posts.

Could one use medical personnel if/when transporting organs or medical supplies/equipment during disasters or mercy missions?

Not sure why you'd need them.  Generally, the transport container is a sealed box or cooler, you just load it on the plane and go.  There was some discussion at the Command Council Meeting about CAP participating in Angel Flights etc. I can see where it might be nice to have someone on board with medical knowledge for those.

Quote from: Al Sayre on March 03, 2015, 05:51:03 PM
I can see where it might be nice to have someone on board with medical knowledge for those.

...with medical knowledge, PLUS regulations defining the scope of practice and a legal framework covering the provider. I'm a paramedic; when I deliver medical care, I'm following protocols defined and approved by my fire department's medical director and I am, in legal terms, acting on his behalf and riding along on his license. If I treat patients in any other context (other than Good Samaritan) I'm violating the law and practicing medicine without a license.

I'm sure as heck not going to do that in CAP under the present system.

The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??   

Quote from: AirAux on March 03, 2015, 10:24:27 PM
The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??

Boehner's Colorful Commentary on Tax Cuts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNZYWpPHNw#ws)

Quote from: AirAux on March 03, 2015, 10:24:27 PM
The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??

(http://www.nursejoe.com/image/31397232.jpg)

And I already own a few pairs from my last deployment :)

Bob-How is anyone in CAP not doing the same thing.  If no one here volunteered to fly/ground pound/run mission base or do comms there would be plenty of awesome jobs out there for everyone (let alone the world of fire and ems, yes there are plenty of places that there are only volunteers)  So I am not very convinced that anyone in CAP volunteering their medical skills and abilities to support the AF would be any weirder than it is now.  Nor do I think that the average AF reserve or NG medical service member would have much butt hurt about CAP folks coming in and doing the job.  Funny thing about the reserve system, there is this thing called points only; if they dont have the money to pay you, they put you on that status, just as obligated to show up and play (dont worry it will count when you retire and boost your pay then).  So if the choice would be get AF guys to come in for free or CAP come in for free, I as an AF guy would rather stay home and go to my real job than come in and take a paycheck hit and let CAP come volunteer.

Ranks and uniforms.  I have stood shoulder to shoulder with RN's and Doc's that are 04-06 doing pretty much grunt work; in the medical field and especially in the reserve system it is not too different than CAP in the rank to work disparity (in garrison maybe more "normal", but in the "deployed/tasked" concept its more CAP-esque)  So having a CAP LTC who is an RN giving shots or filling out a questionaire wouldnt be that abnormal to the average military person.  For the types of "roles" that CAP personnel would/could be called upon to support, blues would be appropriate, it would not likely be "field" conditions.   Sine they see slacks and polos on the services folks, greys and a polo would also not be out of place. (for those that dont military style uniform it)  They only "confusion" would be "non degree" oriented medical folks as officers. (ie EMT types) or flight officers.  No I dont have a really good solution for that.  Maybe down the road in this type of scenario, if you want to be a primary HSO type as a non RN or higher (or other commissionable specialty), you have to choose to be a CAP NCO, (once that path is open to non prior service members)

UCMJ-The military (especially as I have seen) uses plenty of civilain employees and contractors in the medical fields state side.  NO they are also not subject to UCMJ, but they still have to follow the rules, and follow the "orders" of the military personnel above them (in regards to the work place rules, higher rated GS employees also oversee and direct military members)

As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

Yes there would have to be "someone" that fills in the details, ie what kind of medical personnel, RN's , doc, PA's, EMT's etc etc, and how they are credentialed and tracked to keep the USAF happy, who gives that approval authority for internal or external support, where equipment comes from etc, etc.  There are likely many other "issues" that would need to be addressed, but at least generally it would solve the what to do with CAP medical personnel and the "uselessness" of their skill sets in regard to the things CAP does internally or externally for the USAF or other federal agencies.

mk

We're pretty much in agreement here - the point about uniforms and grade was that the
last time NHQ tried to make augmentation work (i.e. VSAF), there were so many rules and
policies that the situation was all but unworkable, and rather then just allow members to show up
in their normal uniforms, even the normal golf shirt, they created an entire new uniform
to insure no one might accidentally show courtesies to someone in CAP.

The primary point is that it's wholly unnecessary - there's just no reason for these medical professionals
to encumber themselves with CAP limitations, or have to wait for CAP to change its mind on the idea.

If there's a legit need for medical volunteers, go volunteer.  And if there was a legit need for any
CAP augmentation, 1AF would already be asking. We're all one team, remember?

Quote from: sarmed1 on March 04, 2015, 03:06:45 AM
As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

While this is technically correct, we both know that pen is milled out of a piece of a neutron star.

And has been mentioned here, the protocols and internal procedures required by many of the members to even consider
exercising their skills are non-trivial as well, though it probably wouldn't surprise anyone if NHQ cranked up a graviton
beam and stroked the neutron pen, only to wait 2-5 years writing the protocols and processes.

Quote from: sarmed1 on March 04, 2015, 03:06:45 AM
Bob-How is anyone in CAP not doing the same thing.  If no one here volunteered to fly/ground pound/run mission base or do comms there would be plenty of awesome jobs out there for everyone (let alone the world of fire and ems, yes there are plenty of places that there are only volunteers)  So I am not very convinced that anyone in CAP volunteering their medical skills and abilities to support the AF would be any weirder than it is now.  Nor do I think that the average AF reserve or NG medical service member would have much butt hurt about CAP folks coming in and doing the job.  Funny thing about the reserve system, there is this thing called points only; if they dont have the money to pay you, they put you on that status, just as obligated to show up and play (dont worry it will count when you retire and boost your pay then).  So if the choice would be get AF guys to come in for free or CAP come in for free, I as an AF guy would rather stay home and go to my real job than come in and take a paycheck hit and let CAP come volunteer.

Ranks and uniforms.  I have stood shoulder to shoulder with RN's and Doc's that are 04-06 doing pretty much grunt work; in the medical field and especially in the reserve system it is not too different than CAP in the rank to work disparity (in garrison maybe more "normal", but in the "deployed/tasked" concept its more CAP-esque)  So having a CAP LTC who is an RN giving shots or filling out a questionaire wouldnt be that abnormal to the average military person.  For the types of "roles" that CAP personnel would/could be called upon to support, blues would be appropriate, it would not likely be "field" conditions.   Sine they see slacks and polos on the services folks, greys and a polo would also not be out of place. (for those that dont military style uniform it)  They only "confusion" would be "non degree" oriented medical folks as officers. (ie EMT types) or flight officers.  No I dont have a really good solution for that.  Maybe down the road in this type of scenario, if you want to be a primary HSO type as a non RN or higher (or other commissionable specialty), you have to choose to be a CAP NCO, (once that path is open to non prior service members)

UCMJ-The military (especially as I have seen) uses plenty of civilain employees and contractors in the medical fields state side.  NO they are also not subject to UCMJ, but they still have to follow the rules, and follow the "orders" of the military personnel above them (in regards to the work place rules, higher rated GS employees also oversee and direct military members)

As far a "outside" the current rules.  Yes but (as we have seen) the simple stroke of a pen (or 2) can change the CAP rule book pretty easily.   An interm change letter allowing CAP medical personnel to provide medical support to CAP and military personnel only under auspice of a USAF authorized mission number is pretty much all that would take to satisfy the letter of the reg.

Yes there would have to be "someone" that fills in the details, ie what kind of medical personnel, RN's , doc, PA's, EMT's etc etc, and how they are credentialed and tracked to keep the USAF happy, who gives that approval authority for internal or external support, where equipment comes from etc, etc.  There are likely many other "issues" that would need to be addressed, but at least generally it would solve the what to do with CAP medical personnel and the "uselessness" of their skill sets in regard to the things CAP does internally or externally for the USAF or other federal agencies.

mk

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Having augmented for the CG Aux. the CG did handstands when I came in because it meant they could see more patients that day or the CG PA could catch up on flight time, paperwork or take a day off. My credentialing and clinic privileges were taken care of by the CG not the AUX. It was a win win all around.

Would I be willing to do the same for CAP and AF? Frankly, I don't know, I joined CAP for other reasons. Most of the objections raised here could be overcome fairly easily and others are just groundless. It is all about the will of the AF and at this time they would rather hire me as a civilian contractor than have me augment for free.

QuoteWe're pretty much in agreement here - the point about uniforms and grade was that the
last time NHQ tried to make augmentation work (i.e. VSAF), there were so many rules and
policies that the situation was all but unworkable, and rather then just allow members to show up
in their normal uniforms, even the normal golf shirt, they created an entire new uniform
to insure no one might accidentally show courtesies to someone in CAP.

I never understood that one entirely either.  Even somewhat buying into the whole "worry" about Capt Bag-o-Donuts, who thinks he still is ok in his BDU's while trolling for salutes..... why they couldnt just go with greys an a polo I dont understand; they needed a whole new & different uniform?!

Quote....though it probably wouldn't surprise anyone if NHQ cranked up a graviton
beam and stroked the neutron pen, only to wait 2-5 years writing the protocols and processes...

the list of things on this list from the past is long and distinguished... ABU's, 39-1, NCO program; come to mind....

The speed of such pen is directly proportional to who is asking for it.  Stars and $$ move the pen a little more than wishing and wanting I think.

Honestly the "augment" portion of the equation was where the "benefit" to the AF would be for taking on the mantle of responsibility/liability to make the medical thing work for CAP yet keep the corporate lawyers happy.  CAP HSO's have  a way that they can do the medical things that CAP supposedly "recruits" them for (and in many cases really want to do), CAP can say; look what we can offer (yet not have to be worried about being "sued" if something bad happens) the AF has a ready pool of cleared/vetted/credentialed extra "free" help when they need it.

Reality for the AF side.  Its not like they are going to call for a "deployment" of a whole "hospital" of CAP people.  But I have seen (at least on the reserve side) needs for some specific specialties that they may otherwise have to pay for.  That may be able to come in for a drill weekend here or there to help with "overload".  Dental (I know there are likely not that many dentists wandering around CAP) is one that comes up fairly often.  Mental health is another (docs or other MH professionals).  During large scale out processing or in-processing deployments (especially if the medical unit is one of those coming/going) some one working those mobility lines; just a few off the top of my head.  Who knows maybe its one of those things that if it was known to be available it might actually get used.

mk

Quote from: AirAux on March 03, 2015, 05:44:37 PM
Could one use medical personnel if/when transporting organs or medical supplies/equipment during disasters or mercy missions?

Why? It is only cargo.   8)

Quote from: LSThiker on March 03, 2015, 10:48:19 PM

Quote from: AirAux on March 03, 2015, 10:24:27 PM
The question is, if pilots/flight crew can wear flightsuits, can medical personnel wear scrubs?  If so, which color and embroidered, plastic, sewn on, or metal bling?  Do we wear OR hats, jungle caps, or Flight caps?  IIRC in the Army, we wore whites with Flight caps (or overseas caps or ---- caps).  I think we are onto something here.  I go for blue scrubs and not woodland..  White shoes with crepe soles or potato loafers??

(http://www.nursejoe.com/image/31397232.jpg)

And I already own a few pairs from my last deployment :)

Now this is a great uniform thread, thank you sir for sharing   :clap:

Quote from: Eclipse on March 01, 2015, 09:41:15 PM
How many paid medical professionals are going to volunteer their time to treat other paid professionals
while at the same time knowing they are taking another paid professional's job?

That last part won't get us on anyone's Christmas card list, either.

Times of crisis are one thing, normal operations are another, not to mention the non-trivial issue
of command authority over people not covered by UCMJ, and who probably outrank everyone in the room.

And if you want to suggest that members serve in something other then their CAP uniform, and with no
acknowledgement of their CAP grade, like VSAF, then those aren't really CAP members, they are just people
on a mailing list, and they might as well just go up to the VC and volunteer directly and leave CAP out of it.

In fact, owing to the existing prohibitions regarding medical services, they would be better off volunteering
directly without the encumbrances of CAP affiliation. As a "Dr." they can do whatever they want, as a CAP
HSO, they can't.

You act like this is something impossible to do... happens everyday in the USCGAux. CAP and the USAF need only to request copies of USCG/USCGAux MOR's, regulations, etc. and do a cut-n-paste to make the needed regulations/instructions.

BTW, isn't every CAP senior member a "paid professional" in whatever job they do in the civilian world?

Doesn't in make sense to for a "volunteer" to volunteer their skills where and when needed?

Rank shouldn't be an issue.

QuoteMost of the objections raised here could be overcome fairly easily and others are just groundless.

:clap:

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 03:32:14 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on March 01, 2015, 09:41:15 PM
How many paid medical professionals are going to volunteer their time to treat other paid professionals
while at the same time knowing they are taking another paid professional's job?

That last part won't get us on anyone's Christmas card list, either.

Times of crisis are one thing, normal operations are another, not to mention the non-trivial issue
of command authority over people not covered by UCMJ, and who probably outrank everyone in the room.

And if you want to suggest that members serve in something other then their CAP uniform, and with no
acknowledgement of their CAP grade, like VSAF, then those aren't really CAP members, they are just people
on a mailing list, and they might as well just go up to the VC and volunteer directly and leave CAP out of it.

In fact, owing to the existing prohibitions regarding medical services, they would be better off volunteering
directly without the encumbrances of CAP affiliation. As a "Dr." they can do whatever they want, as a CAP
HSO, they can't.

You act like this is something impossible to do... happens everyday in the USCGAux. CAP and the USAF need only to request copies of USCG/USCGAux MOR's, regulations, etc. and do a cut-n-paste to make the needed regulations/instructions.

BTW, isn't every CAP senior member a "paid professional" in whatever job they do in the civilian world?

Doesn't in make sense to for a "volunteer" to volunteer their skills where and when needed?

Rank shouldn't be an issue.

Nothing is impossible, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 03:32:14 PM
Doesn't in make sense to for a "volunteer" to volunteer their skills where and when needed?

You tell me.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 04, 2015, 04:12:57 PM
Nothing is impossible, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 03:32:14 PM
Doesn't in make sense to for a "volunteer" to volunteer their skills where and when needed?

You tell me.

+1 - Not to mention saying "something happens all the time somewhere" has little relevance to the specific situation.

Not to mention that helping out on boat inspections is a far cry from providing medical care.  Feel free to indicate
the whens and where that USCG Health Care Professionals are augmenting in that way.

Edit: Apparently they do.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 04, 2015, 04:33:12 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 04, 2015, 04:12:57 PM
Nothing is impossible, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 03:32:14 PM
Doesn't in make sense to for a "volunteer" to volunteer their skills where and when needed?

You tell me.

+1 - Not to mention saying "something happens all the time somewhere" has little relevance to the specific situation.

Not to mention that helping out on boat inspections is a far cry from providing medical care.  Feel free to indicate
the whens and where that USCG Health Care Professionals are augmenting in that way.

This has been discussed previously. Myself and other Auxies augment on a freq basis in Coast Guard clinics performing the same medical and dental  tasks as our CG partners. Boat inspections indeed where did that come from. I thought we were discussing health issues.

I will leave you to have the last word since it seems to mean so much to you.

QuoteEdit: Apparently they do.

http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxiliary-health-services (http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxiliary-health-services)

Yes they do.

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 06:26:52 PM

QuoteEdit: Apparently they do.

http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxiliary-health-services (http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxiliary-health-services)

Yes they do.

Auxiliary status notwithstanding, Civil Air Patrol and the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary are two completely different things.

True, but if the USAF and CAP wanted to develop a program to use CAP senior member's civilian medical skills, here is a program they could copy and modify to fit the USAF's needs and CAP's abilities, that's all I'm saying.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 04, 2015, 06:47:31 PM
Auxiliary status notwithstanding, Civil Air Patrol and the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary are two completely different things.

Yes, but the law that lets the CG use its Aux in this way is basically identical to law cited earlier describing what the AF is authorized to use CAP for. 

The important difference isn't that between CAP and CG Aux, it is between the AF and the CG.  One service is widely distributed in small, under-staffed units while the other is quite large and furthermore is concentrated in relatively few, very large bases with thousands of people on them. 

It is possible that there may actually be a staffing problem at AF medical units.  No one here really knows.  If there is, CAP may be one way that problem could be addressed, perhaps not entirely, but to some extent. 

Quote from: RiverAux on March 04, 2015, 07:19:58 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 04, 2015, 06:47:31 PM
Auxiliary status notwithstanding, Civil Air Patrol and the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary are two completely different things.

It is possible that there may actually be a staffing problem at AF medical units.  No one here really knows.  If there is, CAP may be one way that problem could be addressed, perhaps not entirely, but to some extent.

There are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units.  They are actually turning down applications for some "specialties".  Asking CAP to fill in, like in the Chaplain Corps, is totally unnecessary.  If there is a need, they fill it with reserve/guard personnel.  When that doesn't work, there are civilian DoD contractors. 

Why we have a "Health Service Corps" is something which can be a topic of discussion, however in my opinion, the possibility of augmenting the AF Medical Service with CAP volunteers is just humorous.

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

QuoteIf there is a need, they fill it with reserve/guard personnel.  When that doesn't work, there are civilian DoD contractors

And that would then indeed indicate there is a staffing problem.  And it isnt that easy; RES/NG can only be "mandated" for 14 days per year short of a presidential type activation; otherwise you have to ask for "volunteers"; and that money to pay them for the duty outside of the normal planning has to come from some where.  In the NG that money is usually reserved for state active duty for disasters; the Reserve side has a bigger flex pot, but someone somewhere else will likely get short changed then.  (especially if it doesnt involve flying hours, that money only gets released with a lot of string pulling)  Contractors are no easy thing either.  I remember one base brining on paramedics to run EMS (as contractors) from the time they said they were going to "do it" to the time the first medics started reporting was easy 6-8 months, and easily another 2-3 until they were oriented and released.

I wasnt saying it was a constant shortfall, only that I have been present when it has been an issue, maybe or maybe not an area CAP could have been utilized if there was a system in place to do it.  It is the proverbial solution looking for a problem.

MK

Quote from: sarmed1 on March 04, 2015, 11:36:06 PMAnd that would then indeed indicate there is a staffing problem.  And it isnt that easy; RES/NG can only be "mandated" for 14 days per year short of a presidential type activation; otherwise you have to ask for "volunteers"; and that money to pay them for the duty outside of the normal planning has to come from some where.  In the NG that money is usually reserved for state active duty for disasters; the Reserve side has a bigger flex pot, but someone somewhere else will likely get short changed then.  (especially if it doesnt involve flying hours, that money only gets released with a lot of string pulling)  Contractors are no easy thing either.  I remember one base brining on paramedics to run EMS (as contractors) from the time they said they were going to "do it" to the time the first medics started reporting was easy 6-8 months, and easily another 2-3 until they were oriented and released.

I can tell you from personal experience that "people working for free in normally paid roles" has been specifically cited as a reason CAP is not
called up more often in my state. So in my wing, at least in terms of the Guard, it's likely a non-starter.  Such is life in a state controlled by unions and
special interests, but that isn't going to change any time soon.

That might be different on the Federal side, but with only one significant USAF installation, away from the major population centers,
CAP's raw ability to provide in this case would be severely limited, assuming it was a good idea to start with.

Other wings may not have the same challenges with more / larger USAF presence and less sensitivity towards "free".

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

When it comes to domestic military healthcare, there are numerous studies showing adequate coverage; either thru the AF medical service, or Tri-Care.  There are problems dealing with overseas members.  These shortages are dealt with by civilian facilities augmenting military personnel.  There is a recent GAO study showing that.  CAP is not a realistic option for overseas shortages.
Domestic requirements are met by active duty, reserve, guard, and civilian contractors.  Tri-Care is the military insurance program for military family members, and seems to be working well.  There is no reason for the AF to ask for CAP's help, and why would it?  Current medical personnel and insurance do the trick...

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

Cite that there is.

Apparently, the military is somewhat understaffed in its operationally-related medical staffing needs, but is otherwise doing ok.  https://www.ida.org/~/media/Corporate/Files/Publications/IDA_Documents/CARD/P-5047.ashx (https://www.ida.org/~/media/Corporate/Files/Publications/IDA_Documents/CARD/P-5047.ashx)

I suppose that if there were a super significant CAP involvement in medical issues it possibly could free up folks to be available for operations, but I doubt we could have that level of impact. 

But, seeing as how one of the suggestions in the report cited above is to consider putting AD medical personnel in VA and civilian hospitals to help maintain their skills which don't get enough of a workout in military facilities, it seems like there isn't a big need for CAP. 

There apparently are some sort of federal laws that make it difficult to use civilians to staff military units that could come into play. 

Quote from: RiverAux on March 04, 2015, 07:19:58 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 04, 2015, 06:47:31 PM
Auxiliary status notwithstanding, Civil Air Patrol and the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary are two completely different things.

Yes, but the law that lets the CG use its Aux in this way is basically identical to law cited earlier describing what the AF is authorized to use CAP for. 

The important difference isn't that between CAP and CG Aux, it is between the AF and the CG.  One service is widely distributed in small, under-staffed units while the other is quite large and furthermore is concentrated in relatively few, very large bases with thousands of people on them. 

It is possible that there may actually be a staffing problem at AF medical units.  No one here really knows.  If there is, CAP may be one way that problem could be addressed, perhaps not entirely, but to some extent.

I think everyone is trying to compare donkeys to ponies. You have to respect donkeys for what they are but they are not ponies. And vice versa.

BTW, anybody see my orange  8)

Apparently the CG Aux (and the command of the Coast Guard as well) is way more into this idea of Auxiliary augmentation that the Air Force is.


They even bring in CG Aux to augment with Food Service (FS)


http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxchef (http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=H-DEPT&category=auxchef)



I wonder what additional ways the CG will come up with in the future... but i guess that is a line of conversation that is not for this thread...

Quote from: supertigerCH on March 05, 2015, 11:57:51 AM
Apparently the CG Aux (and the command of the Coast Guard as well) is way more into this idea of Auxiliary augmentation that the Air Force is.

That may be because augmenting the Coast Guard is one or their Auxiliary missions. CAP has other important missions and, except for limited instances, augmentation is not one of them.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 05, 2015, 04:07:24 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

Cite that there is.

Really?

I never said there was.

The good COL posted a statement as fact, a fact I am unfamiliar with, as the person making a "Statement of Fact", he needs to cite his source, not the other way around.  ::)

Quote from: FW on March 05, 2015, 01:35:33 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

When it comes to domestic military healthcare, there are numerous studies showing adequate coverage; either thru the AF medical service, or Tri-Care.  There are problems dealing with overseas members.  These shortages are dealt with by civilian facilities augmenting military personnel.  There is a recent GAO study showing that.  CAP is not a realistic option for overseas shortages.
Domestic requirements are met by active duty, reserve, guard, and civilian contractors.  Tri-Care is the military insurance program for military family members, and seems to be working well.  There is no reason for the AF to ask for CAP's help, and why would it?  Current medical personnel and insurance do the trick...

Respectfully Sir, can you provide a link to these studies?

The fact that the USCG needs augmentation from the USCGAux tends to point to the Military, and by default the Public Health Service (they provide the Health Service to the Coast Guard), having a shortfall in providers and personnel to support them. Unless you're saying the Coast Guard isn't Military.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 05, 2015, 01:27:56 PM
That may be because augmenting the Coast Guard is one or their Auxiliary missions. CAP has other important missions and, except for limited instances, augmentation is not one of them.

Actually, as I pointed out earlier, the federal legislative authority for CG Aux augmentation missions is essentially identical to what is found in CAP-related federal law.  Augmentation by CAP is an authorized mission, it is just one that the AF has chosen not to use (except for isolated cases).  That choice is a legitimate one.  No one HAS to use CAP for anything. 

^ River Aux probably gave the best link to what is available.  My research went to a 2011 GAO study which you can Google.  The 2014 references study shows a more current distribution of military medical personnel, and the under supply of some specialties; the oversupply of others.  The study shows a possible shortage of some specialties during wartime deployments; not at home.  Medical needs are supplied by military and civilian personnel, and does not need volunteer augmentation.  Maybe, when there are no funds available to pay for military health care....

USCG personnel can avail themselves of USPHS medical personnel, military hospitals, or civilian facilities if needed.  I have no idea how the USCG Aux augments the USPHS for medical purposes. I do not know how its Aux provides medical augmentation on it's boats and ships.  Then again. We are discussing CAP's Health Service Officers, their function and "recognition" for service.  In that regard, I'm pretty sure there is no need for USAF augmentation.  The home front is well supplied...

Quote from: shuman14 on March 05, 2015, 04:07:01 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 05, 2015, 04:07:24 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

Cite that there is.

Really?

I never said there was.

The good COL posted a statement as fact, a fact I am unfamiliar with, as the person making a "Statement of Fact", he needs to cite his source, not the other way around.  ::)

So, are you advocating for a solution to a problem you don't know exist?

Quote from: shuman14 on March 05, 2015, 04:12:05 PM

Quote from: FW on March 05, 2015, 01:35:33 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on March 04, 2015, 11:08:17 PM

QuoteThere are no medical staffing problems in any DoD units

Cite please.

When it comes to domestic military healthcare, there are numerous studies showing adequate coverage; either thru the AF medical service, or Tri-Care.  There are problems dealing with overseas members.  These shortages are dealt with by civilian facilities augmenting military personnel.  There is a recent GAO study showing that.  CAP is not a realistic option for overseas shortages.
Domestic requirements are met by active duty, reserve, guard, and civilian contractors.  Tri-Care is the military insurance program for military family members, and seems to be working well.  There is no reason for the AF to ask for CAP's help, and why would it?  Current medical personnel and insurance do the trick...

Respectfully Sir, can you provide a link to these studies?

The fact that the USCG needs augmentation from the USCGAux tends to point to the Military, and by default the Public Health Service (they provide the Health Service to the Coast Guard), having a shortfall in providers and personnel to support them. Unless you're saying the Coast Guard isn't Military.

If you read his post carefully you'll notice he's talking about the Air Force. Or are you now suggesting we should augment the Coast Guard because they may have a legitimate need?

QuoteOr are you now suggesting we should augment the Coast Guard because they may have a legitimate need?

That's actually not a bad idea!

"That may be because augmenting the Coast Guard is one or their Auxiliary missions. CAP has other important missions and, except for limited instances, augmentation is not one of them."

--  Storm Chaser


While this might be true... the CG Aux has its own auxiliary aviation pilots and airplanes, that are able to do just about everything that CAP does, only they do it under the Coast Guard (and therefore primarily tend to focus on coastal & maritime areas).

Somehow while having this well developed (and integrated into the CG) aviation mission, the CG has still found a way to augment their auxiliary into a good number of missions... showing that it is possible.


It all really seems, in the end, to come down to the AF not having the desire for it.   Which is legitimate.  The Air Force's reasons are their own... and they are free to do things the way they want to.  CAP only exists as their auxiliary in the ways that the AF decides that support is wanted/needed.

The Coast Guard uses their Auxiliary more then the Air Force does simply because they've always have been under funded and had to find ways to stretch their meager funding.
No cost augumentation from their Auxiliary is just one of those ways.