We all understand that CAP has "frozen" uniform changes for a while. There are many good reasons for this... and the organization is trying to lay out a good direction for uniforms in the future.
However... even keeping that in mind... it does not appear that CAP needs the blue name tapes anymore (that they have used for so many years... since decades ago when the Air Force even wore them).
For many years the reason was... that it was another way for CAP members to look "different" (and therefore to distinguish them from Active and Reserve Air Force members).
There is good reason to be able to tell us apart... since our mission is a very particular one. There's no reason to create confusion... since all the vast majority of CAP members are not military in any way.
Having said all of this... now that the Air Force (and all other branches of the military) have stopped wearing BDUs, it does not seem that blue name tapes are needed anymore. Just the wearing of the BDU uniform (along with different badges/patches) will make CAP stand out. (All my opinion of course)
Yes... the word is that CAP will eventually move to the ABU. However how many years down the road is that? Whenever CAP does move to ABUs... we would be probably just be able to use the DARK blue name tapes with the uniform... since the other blue that we wear on that uniform (rank chevrons, etc. is dark blue).
Buying just the dark blue name tapes & cloth rank... would not only match the thread that is used... in the lettering on Air Force uniforms (and ABU rank). It would also give us just ONE color name tapes, CAP tapes, and cloth rank to buy.... for the blue flight suit, blue field uniform, and BDU/ABU.
Sound like an okay idea to anyone? Why have us all spend more money... to buy 2 types of cloth rank & name tapes? This just seems an easier and more "streamlined" way to do CAP uniforms.
Welcome to CAPTalk.
FYI the AF has not switched to the ACU it's ABU. Also I am curious as to know where you got your data on the vast majority of the members (cadets not included) not being military?
First we would be getting ABU's (Airman Battle Uniform) not ACU's (Army Combat Uniform). Second most people either wear the BDU's unless they don't fit the requirements or they just want the BBDU's. What your saying does make since but remember how long it takes to change uniform items with cap. if that ever did go through it would wait till we get ABU's and when the new 39-1 comes it, if it does. If you didn't know, the national board this summer should be making its formal request to change to the ABU's do to the now limited quantity of BDU's being made since there now used anymore except by us.
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 08, 2012, 11:25:25 PM
FYI the AF has not switched to the ACU it's ABU. Also I am curious as to know where you got your data on the vast majority of the members (cadets not included) not being military?
The Air Force wears ABU, not ACU. But bigger than any tiny mixup, people get it wrong all the time.
I don't think that adding a uniform change would help anything. We are already in a different uniform that just might be going away in a few years anyways. Stick with what we have and wait for the word to swap to ABU, if and when it happens. I would be proud of the uniform for now, it really does look good once you get used to wearing it. And the blue name tapes are a bit of tradition by now. But I would be happy changing them when we start wearing the ABU.
And welcome to CAPTalk.
Yes... I have committed the terrible type-O that that is guaranteed to get the thread all sorts of negative comments. Typing ACU instead of ABU. Hopefully people will still read this thread seriously.
Anyone know how to modify the name of a thread? Moderators... are you able to do your magic, and help me out here?
Also very true about the the long time it takes for CAP uniform changes.
Just sharing some thoughts. :)
I'd rather get the whole uniform, with the real ABU nametapes, than move/stay the same to a solid color tape. We are going to have more patches on the ABU inevitably, patches the USAF doesn't have, so distinguishing us shouldn't be hard at all. If we had the Army Combat uniform (ACU), there would be no question, we'd switch to the current ACU tapes because the blue ones don't have velcro. Another thing is that I think we should upgrade to ABU collar insignia for the cadet officers/seniors, and try to revamp the enlisted cadet insignia to match the color scheme of the ABU. We're do for a new design from what I've heard, we've been using the same/similar pins since the 70's.
BUT-
We should keep the BDU's the same, and revamp when we get the ABU's. No sense augmenting change for a uniform on its way out.
The Air Force would never let us get ABU name and CAP tapes or most likely anything thats subdued
Nothing wrong with the pins and having something that has been around for awhile can be good for us as far as the C/Officer insignia.
And more patches for the uniform would be a great way of standing out however it is something that AF would have to approve, and there has and still is an uproar over not allowing at the min unit patches on the ABU.
Now I think that we should be able to go with the ABU background and White thread for name and CAP tapes.
Or grayish green tapes with white lettering.
Any way to fix the ("ACU" type-O) name of this thread?
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 12:07:05 AM
Any way to fix the ("ACU" type-O) name of this thread?
It is typo not type-o
Typo is short for typography.
See: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographical_error (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographical_error)
Thanks. Good to know! :)
Quote from: Proudusamember on April 08, 2012, 11:42:42 PM
The Air Force would never let us get ABU name and CAP tapes or most likely anything thats subdued
We'll look better if we are closer in design to the USAF. Think of it this way, you have two people in the same buisness at the same office. One of them wears a suit to his office cubicle, and the other wears saggy jeans, a backwards hat, sweatshirts, and jordans in the other office cubicle. When the suit wearer looks at ghettokid over in his cubicle, they immeditaly look down on them. Now, ghettokid really is an awesome person, an overachiever, and well educated, but just likes to be comfortable. He really wants a suit, but is too afraid to ask his boss for a raise to be able to afford one (his money goes towards paying bills, buying equipment for his job, and for many more things that are positive).
We are the ghettokid here in my problem. We just need to swallow our pride and fears of rejection and be like "Ma Blue, can we move up in the world and get some nicer ABU stuff, and be allowed to look a little closer to you?"
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 08, 2012, 11:54:24 PM
Nothing wrong with the pins and having something that has been around for awhile can be good for us as far as the C/Officer insignia.
And more patches for the uniform would be a great way of standing out however it is something that AF would have to approve, and there has and still is an uproar over not allowing at the min unit patches on the ABU.
Now I think that we should be able to go with the ABU background and White thread for name and CAP tapes.
I'd just like to move on from being like a decorated christmas tree.
The way to fix your ghetto kid issue is to wear the uniform correctly and iron it and shine your boots
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 09, 2012, 12:17:48 AM
The way to fix your ghetto kid issue is to wear the uniform correctly and iron it and shine your boots
All of which I do. The problem was intended to show we are in different clothes and appear different for it, and not different in a positive way, either.
Quote from: Littleguy on April 09, 2012, 12:15:37 AM
Quote from: Proudusamember on April 08, 2012, 11:42:42 PM
The Air Force would never let us get ABU name and CAP tapes or most likely anything thats subdued
We'll look better if we are closer in design to the USAF. Think of it this way, you have two people in the same buisness at the same office. One of them wears a suit to his office cubicle, and the other wears saggy jeans, a backwards hat, sweatshirts, and jordans in the other office cubicle. When the suit wearer looks at ghettokid over in his cubicle, they immeditaly look down on them. Now, ghettokid really is an awesome person, an overachiever, and well educated, but just likes to be comfortable. He really wants a suit, but is too afraid to ask his boss for a raise to be able to afford one (his money goes towards paying bills, buying equipment for his job, and for many more things that are positive).
We are the ghettokid here in my problem. We just need to swallow our pride and fears of rejection and be like "Ma Blue, can we move up in the world and get some nicer ABU stuff, and be allowed to look a little closer to you?"
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 08, 2012, 11:54:24 PM
Nothing wrong with the pins and having something that has been around for awhile can be good for us as far as the C/Officer insignia.
And more patches for the uniform would be a great way of standing out however it is something that AF would have to approve, and there has and still is an uproar over not allowing at the min unit patches on the ABU.
Now I think that we should be able to go with the ABU background and White thread for name and CAP tapes.
I'd just like to move on from being like a decorated christmas tree.
Sounds like highschool drama: A guy is too afraid of rejection to ask this one chick out.
guy= CAP
Chick=Ma blue
You have the idea.
We are definitely a service organization... and our primary focus should always be on that (instead of small uniform issues).
Today my thoughts were more about helping CAP members have one color CAP tape, name tape, and cloth rank for all non-formal uniforms... while also choosing the color that would make the uniform look most professional.
Dark blue seemed to be the best, since we are already using rank... name tapes... and CAP tapes that color for some uniforms. It also matches a color that the Air Force (our military counterpart) uses on some uniforms.
Good reminder though... we always have to keep that focus in mind. Forums are just for throwing ideas around. Service first everyone!! :)
It's on the agenda for the board meeting for this summer, the worse the AF can say is no.
And as far as looking like "ghetto kid" if the uniform is maintained properly and to standard or above standard then that is a non issue. Unfortunately how you dress is one of the biggest things that a person or an organization is based on. A key reason we(AF) went from the BDU to the ABU was to be able to better asses an individual on their EPR. And I am not trying to stir a pot or bring the age old argument up of appearance vs performance, but I have had many people in my flights who had that honor guard crisp look to them but didn't do the job and relied on the appearance to get by.
All we have to do is ask the AF to wear the ABU but in doing so we need to have a plan in place for phase what will and will not be allowed to be worn on the uniform, tapes, headgear and cost per set for members to obtain the uniform.
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 09, 2012, 12:45:09 AM
It's on the agenda for the board meeting for this summer, the worse the AF can say is no.
And as far as looking like "ghetto kid" if the uniform is maintained properly and to standard or above standard then that is a non issue. Unfortunately how you dress is one of the biggest things that a person or an organization is based on. A key reason we(AF) went from the BDU to the ABU was to be able to better asses an individual on their EPR. And I am not trying to stir a pot or bring the age old argument up of appearance vs performance, but I have had many people in my flights who had that honor guard crisp look to them but didn't do the job and relied on the appearance to get by.
All we have to do is ask the AF to wear the ABU but in doing so we need to have a plan in place for phase what will and will not be allowed to be worn on the uniform, tapes, headgear and cost per set for members to obtain the uniform.
It was an exaggeration to get his point across.
QuoteService first everyone!!
Not for me. Grades are first. Then service.
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 08, 2012, 11:14:26 PM
Having said all of this... now that the Air Force (and all other branches of the military) have stopped wearing BDUs, it does not seem that blue name tapes are needed anymore.
The US Coast Guard Port Security units and Navy Seabees are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head that still wear BDU's
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy recently change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
The Navy in General did...except for what are typically seen as Ground Combat Units...Including Seabee's and some Special Warfare types...because the Blue/Gray camo of the NWU really stinks in the woods.
Quote from: Littleguy on April 08, 2012, 11:40:39 PM
We should keep the BDU's the same, and revamp when we get the ABU's. No sense augmenting change for a uniform on its way out.
It was done for the CSU...remember the switch to CAP's-ever-favourite non-colour grey rank slides and nameplates?
The blue nametapes will stay because of those who holler about "distinctiveness" and those who worry that somehow looking more like the AF will tick the AF off.
Switching to a dark blue background with white letters makes sense to get in the pipeline now no matter what happens to the BDU. Why? Because it would make immediate sense on the Blue BDU. If we get a name tape that matches that uniform color it will look great on that uniform and will also look great on the BDU or any possible successor.
So, why not start the transition now? Give it a 4-5 year phase in date so that those with the old uniforms will most likely get to wear them until we switch. And if we don't switch in 4-5 years, maybe we're not going to and making the BDU look good will be worth it.
For those that say "it is on the agenda for the summer NB"...
Can you give us a site on that please? I know that uniforms in general are going to be on the agenda, but I have yet to see ANY real agenda so...just wondering how you all KNOW that CAP will ask for ABU's.
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 12:40:10 AM
....Dark blue seemed to be the best, since we are already using rank... name tapes... and CAP tapes that color for some uniforms. It also matches a color that the Air Force (our military counterpart) uses on some uniforms.
Can you tell me which uniforms use a dark blue name or CAP tape? The only uniforms i can find that use the dark(navy) blue background for embroidered rank is the Corporate Flight suit and Utility uniforms.
Hi Ground Pounder,
I stand corrected. What I should have said was...
Dark blue is the color of certain CAP cloth rank... that Civil Air Patrol is already using. As you mentioned... this includes the Corporate Flight Suit and Utility Uniform.
This color would work just as well on name tapes, CAP tapes, and cloth rank... for the CAP Field Uniform (and BDU when worn by CAP).
Forgive me if it sounded like my words meant... that the Air Force uses dark blue CAP name tapes. Of course this is not the case.
I'm all for nametapes and insignia backing that properly match the BBDU. I understand tradition but Ultramarine Blue is horrid on BDUs. Its particularly bad on the BBDU where it looks like we simply couldn't pull off successful color matching.
ABU? Meh...I'd go BBDU in a second if Ultramarine would just die. The only reason I'm currently wearing BDUs is they were free.
Quote from: NCRblues on April 09, 2012, 03:41:54 AM
For those that say "it is on the agenda for the summer NB"...
Can you give us a site on that please? I know that uniforms in general are going to be on the agenda, but I have yet to see ANY real agenda so...just wondering how you all KNOW that CAP will ask for ABU's.
Well, there is no agenda for the summer Board meeting as yet. Normally the agenda isn't set until about 4-6 weeks out from the meeting. I suppose individual NB members may well be considering any possible agenda items they would like to propose, but there aren't any yet being circulated for staff comments or analysis.
The NEC is meeting in about a month and their agenda is up on eServices. If there was anything urgent that requires national-level action, at this point I would expect to see it on the NEC agenda rather than waiting for the full Board meeting in August.
That said, we can be fairly sure that there will be one or more uniform items on the agenda if for no other reason than the National Uniform Committee report is due. As we have discussed in other threads, the NUC will make recommendations to the NB which the NB is free to adopt, revise, or ignore at their option. If the NB decides to make requests to the AF concerning our uniforms (ABUs, nametape colors, or whatever), there would be a period of time for the staff to create the packet that would go to the AF. Once the AF receives any requests that the NB chooses to make, they will go through their own staff analysis and approval process as it works it way up the chain from CAP-USAF to the Air Staff level for final decision. I would expect that to take some time.
Ned Lee
Member, NUC
Ultramarine has got to go.......it ranks right up there with shag carpets, advocado kitchen appliances and disco.
That color is so................(fill in the blank)
Quote from: Smokey on April 09, 2012, 03:58:31 PM
That color is so................(fill in the blank)
Retro
Thanks moderators... for the correction/edit on the title of this forum thread!
You guys are a great help.
Quote from: SARDOC on April 09, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 08, 2012, 11:14:26 PM
Having said all of this... now that the Air Force (and all other branches of the military) have stopped wearing BDUs, it does not seem that blue name tapes are needed anymore.
The US Coast Guard Port Security units and Navy Seabees are just two examples I can think of off the top of my head that still wear BDU's
The PSU's are about to begin switching to the NWU type 3 (green digital) I have seen plenty of people (Navy and CG) still wearing BDU's and DCU's. Some Navy SEALS I've seen recently are still wearing the woodland BDU's.
Quote from: Ford73Diesel on April 13, 2012, 12:00:27 AM
Some Navy SEALS I've seen recently are still wearing the woodland BDU's.
Not doubting, just curious: Where do you go that you frequently see Navy SEALs?
Or is that classified ;D
Quote from: SARDOC on April 09, 2012, 01:35:22 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy recently change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
The Navy in General did...except for what are typically seen as Ground Combat Units...Including Seabee's and some Special Warfare types...because the Blue/Gray camo of the NWU really stinks in the woods.
The navy actually phased out the BDUs
to the best of my knowledge. They are now wearing the NWU. It's a green digi camo uniform.
Quote from: shlebz on April 13, 2012, 03:03:43 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on April 09, 2012, 01:35:22 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy recently change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
The Navy in General did...except for what are typically seen as Ground Combat Units...Including Seabee's and some Special Warfare types...because the Blue/Gray camo of the NWU really stinks in the woods.
The navy actually phased out the BDUs to the best of my knowledge. They are now wearing the NWU. It's a green digi camo uniform.
To the best of my knowledge, as of today, they are still wearing both.
Quote from: Ford73Diesel on April 13, 2012, 03:06:21 AM
Quote from: shlebz on April 13, 2012, 03:03:43 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on April 09, 2012, 01:35:22 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy recently change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
The Navy in General did...except for what are typically seen as Ground Combat Units...Including Seabee's and some Special Warfare types...because the Blue/Gray camo of the NWU really stinks in the woods.
The navy actually phased out the BDUs to the best of my knowledge. They are now wearing the NWU. It's a green digi camo uniform.
To the best of my knowledge, as of today, they are still wearing both.
I have been corrected haha
All about the NWU: https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/navfac/nwu (https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/navfac/nwu)
The NWU type I (digital blue/gray camo) is currently being given to sailors in their seabags when they enlist. The NWU Type II and III (digital desert and woodland camo, respectively) are for expeditionary sailors (sailors on the ground).
All about NWU Type II and III: https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/navfac/nwu (https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/navfac/nwu)
One thing to note about NWU Type II and Type III:
NWU Type II and Type III are organizational clothing and will be issued by authorized commands or units to Sailors. The uniforms will remain the property of the issuing command.
This means that ONLY those folks who need them for their billet will get them. They will not be general issue.
So... the earlier question seems to remain...
If the various branches of the military (the Air Force in particular) have stopped using the BDU, except for in very rare, uncommon situations (and the reason behind UMB name tapes is to make CAP look different/distinctive)... are the blue name tapes still necessary?
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 14, 2012, 12:38:44 AM
So... the earlier question seems to remain...
If the various branches of the military (the Air Force in particular) have stopped using the BDU, except for in very rare, uncommon situations (and the reason behind UMB name tapes is to make CAP look different/distinctive)... are the blue name tapes still necessary?
If the Air Force sez they is, then they is. ;) >:D
Who cares? How would switching to green name tapes help us do our job any better?
Quote from: niferous on April 14, 2012, 01:31:00 PM
Who cares? How would switching to green name tapes help us do our job any better?
+1
Sure, green name tapes with dark blue lettering would look better. But it's really not a huge deal. The Ultramarine Blue tapes really don't look all
that bad. (OPINION) Honestly, they're less than 1/10th of the uniform. You don't even see them from most angles.
Just be happy it's Ultramarine Blue, and not hot pink.
Quote from: titanII on April 14, 2012, 02:51:52 PM
The Ultramarine Blue tapes really don't look all that bad. (OPINION)
You clearly don't wear the BBDU like I do. It looks horrible on that uniform. Dark blue tapes with white lettering would look great on that uniform and match the BDU and later the ABU fairly well. I wish they would do that.
Quote from: davidsinn on April 14, 2012, 02:58:33 PM
Quote from: titanII on April 14, 2012, 02:51:52 PM
The Ultramarine Blue tapes really don't look all that bad. (OPINION)
You clearly don't wear the BBDU like I do. It looks horrible on that uniform. Dark blue tapes with white lettering would look great on that uniform and match the BDU and later the ABU fairly well. I wish they would do that.
No, I don't wear the BBDU, but I have seen it before. Again, I don't really think they look all that bad. But of course, that's just one cadet's opinion. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Sir.
Don't get me wrong, I would definitely rather have green/brown, or at least dark blue tapes. But I don't think it's that much of a pressing issue.
Yes... I think we all agree on that point. The color of our name tapes is not a "mission critical" ("pressing") issue. The type of people that make good CAP members will do their job well regardless of what uniform they're wearing (even if it's bright orange with maroon poka-dots).
That is kind of a different question though. Here we are just sharing ideas... about the continued wearing of UMB nametapes. It's true we have branched off a bit... into which colors would look good if UMB was replaced.
Like all threads in CAPtalk... this is just for the sake of discussion and sharing ideas. :)
Hope nobody on any side gets too worked up. It's cool to hear lots of different opinions. I think sometimes that is when we come across our best ideas.
A group like CAP is built around the idea of "command decisions" (which is appropriate for the work we do). However, it's helpful to get an idea of what the membership thinks sometimes. Still... you can't please everyone.
I have no problem with Ultramarine name tapes because they are traditionally CAP. Wearing any other color "just because it would look cool" would not really be a reason I would tend to support. Plus, my other main take on uniform items (the casual wasting of member funds) would also lose me on the idea.
The amount of money to replace everyone's name tapes "on a whim" would equate in maybe over 100,000 dollars of member money. Just have them send the 2 or 3 dollars into and we can have another aircraft. ;)
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 14, 2012, 05:11:14 PM
I have no problem with Ultramarine name tapes because they are traditionally CAP. Wearing any other color "just because it would look cool" would not really be a reason I would tend to support. Plus, my other main take on uniform items (the casual wasting of member funds) would also lose me on the idea.
The amount of money to replace everyone's name tapes "on a whim" would equate in maybe over 100,000 dollars of member money. Just have them send the 2 or 3 dollars into and we can have another aircraft. ;)
Build in an appropriate phase in period and that's not a not an issue. When members get a new bdu/bbdu, they generally get new tapes as well. I've seen a couple folks attempt to reuse old tapes that have been old bdus for 4-5 years. It's not pretty or kinda-sorta-semi-professional looking. The next time, they had new tapes. No one told them to get new ones, they realized how crappy the used tapes looked compared to non-reused tapes. Fortunately, my unit has sufficient funding that the unit will by tapes and give the member only the number they need, typically, we buy a set of three and give the member one for their (usually) one bdu blouse and one for their field jacket. The unit keeps the third. We keep several Civil Air Patrol tapes on hand.
Quote from: shlebz on April 13, 2012, 03:03:43 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on April 09, 2012, 01:35:22 AM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 09, 2012, 01:25:08 AM
Come to think of it... you're right about the Coast Guard security units.
Didn't the Navy recently change its camo pattern and colors recently (along with a lot of their other uniforms)? I might be wrong about the details of that.
The Navy in General did...except for what are typically seen as Ground Combat Units...Including Seabee's and some Special Warfare types...because the Blue/Gray camo of the NWU really stinks in the woods.
The navy actually phased out the BDUs to the best of my knowledge. They are now wearing the NWU. It's a green digi camo uniform.
They are still trying out the new camo for "expeditionary" units...but it's only a handful of selected units...are a general most are still wearing the BDU's should be making the switch if officially approved in the next 2 years after a full phase in
Some people might find my opinion unusual, however it wouldn't bother me too much... if we never moved to the ABU. As long as the uniform we are wearing looks as sharp and professional as possible.
Speaking of the NWU ... and definitely not wanting to offend any Navy types here ... I have a question.
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
Speaking of the NWU ... and definitely not wanting to offend any Navy types here ... I have a question.
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
I've been told by a PO1 that it doesn't show oil and grease stains hardly at all.
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? ... What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
It hides paint stains, oil stains and other dirt in general. Other than that...no real purpose. I think it's just a publicity thing because all of the other services were doing it. Which is a dumb reason. The utility uniform should be designed for it's intended purpose.
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
Not sure, sir...but we're not the only ones who want our seagoing fighters to have cammies.
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4681016655414014&id=87800105e99945e3c07ba2f79a3fa802)
Royal Australian Navy Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform.
Pretty, eh?
Quote from: CyBorg on April 16, 2012, 02:46:40 AM
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
Not sure, sir...but we're not the only ones who want our seagoing fighters to have cammies.
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4681016655414014&id=87800105e99945e3c07ba2f79a3fa802)
Royal Australian Navy Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform.
Pretty, eh?
Yes, but these cammies are shades of gray that might actually confuse anyone targeting a person on a usually gray naval vessel. Green woodland type patterns would seem to have the opposite effect.
Quote from: SARDOC on April 16, 2012, 02:15:33 AM
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? ... What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
It hides paint stains, oil stains and other dirt in general. Other than that...no real purpose. I think it's just a publicity thing because all of the other services were doing it. Which is a dumb reason. The utility uniform should be designed for it's intended purpose.
As someone who wore the older Navy working uniforms for 20+ years, I would have welcomed something like the NWU in my day. I can't recall how many times a single contact with nasty stuff (heavy grease or dirty oil) ruined a uniform for any sort of wear other than around more nasty stuff (not very frequent in my particular job), regardless of its age. Ships are dirty. Sometimes the nasty dirt is unavoidable, or you are the victim of someone else's mistake.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 16, 2012, 02:51:43 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on April 16, 2012, 02:46:40 AM
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
Not sure, sir...but we're not the only ones who want our seagoing fighters to have cammies.
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4681016655414014&id=87800105e99945e3c07ba2f79a3fa802)
Royal Australian Navy Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform.
Pretty, eh?
Yes, but these cammies are shades of gray that might actually confuse anyone targeting a person on a usually gray naval vessel. Green woodland type patterns would seem to have the opposite effect.
And who is wearing green woodland type patterns on shipboard? The NWU is shades of blue and grey.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 16, 2012, 03:07:14 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 16, 2012, 02:51:43 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on April 16, 2012, 02:46:40 AM
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
Enquiring minds and all that ...
Jack
How should I know...I'm just making the point.
Not sure, sir...but we're not the only ones who want our seagoing fighters to have cammies.
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4681016655414014&id=87800105e99945e3c07ba2f79a3fa802)
Royal Australian Navy Disruptive Pattern Naval Uniform.
Pretty, eh?
Yes, but these cammies are shades of gray that might actually confuse anyone targeting a person on a usually gray naval vessel. Green woodland type patterns would seem to have the opposite effect.
And who is wearing green woodland type patterns on shipboard? The NWU is shades of blue and grey.
How should I know...I'm just making the point.
I'm missing your point entirely regarding the green camo thing. Help me out here.
Quote from: SarDragon on April 16, 2012, 03:59:07 AM
I'm missing your point entirely regarding the green camo thing. Help me out here.
Really? The idea is that sometimes military uniforms are used merely because they are military uniforms regardless of design or purpose or for traditional reasons. For example, fleet marines wearing woodland CAMMO on ships in the 1980s, Pockets on uniforms that people are not allowed to put things in (when the initial intent was to have more pockets to put things in), last era's field uniform is today's dress uniform, wearing dessert CAMMO in urban airports in the 1990s and wearing woodland CAMMO in CAP uniforms with blue name tapes.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 16, 2012, 04:12:40 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 16, 2012, 03:59:07 AM
I'm missing your point entirely regarding the green camo thing. Help me out here.
Really? The idea is that sometime military uniforms are used merely because they are military uniforms regardless of design or purpose or for traditional reasons. For example, fleet marines wearing woodland CAMMO on ships in the 1980s, Pockets on uniforms that people are not allowed to put things in (when the initial intent was to have more pockets to put things in), last era's field uniform is today's dress uniform, wearing dessert CAMMO in urban airports in the 1990s and wearing woodland CAMMO in CAP uniforms with blue name tapes.
Yes! Someone finally brought the conversation back around to the topic of this thread... which is CAP uniforms / UMB name tapes.
I was starting to wonder if we had already reached the point... of saying as much as we could about it (which maybe we have). Good conversation everyone!!
Personally, I'd like to see navy blue nametapes and accoutrements. You can even keep the white lettering/stitching, but I hate the ultramarine. We could do it tomorrow, just have to have someone request it. It wouldn't take much for V to do it, it wouldn't surprise me if they make them on demand anyway.
It would carry over well with the ABU (it's a couple of dark spots on a uniform that's pretty light in "low light" conditions.) Anyone that knows the AF uniform is gonna know that this one isn't.
Yeah, a number of us were talking earlier... about how dark (navy) blue would be very good.
Some ranks on dark blue cloth are already being sold for use on dark blue CAP uniforms. Most places that make/sell name tapes also make them in dark blue. I think a lot of members would be fine with that...
Acceptable on a BDU/ABU... and would look very professional on all of our dark blue corporate uniforms.
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
My somewhat uneducated guess is that it could help out in a situation where (for instance) an enemy aircraft is strafing a ship. It'd be a lot harder for that pilot to target sailors that blend in with the ship.
For those that knock the "Ultramarine" name tapes it should be pointed out that the official colors of the USAF are "Ultramarine Blue and Air Force Yellow." Today, the official colors of the U.S. Air Force are ultramarine blue and golden yellow, representing the sky and the sun.
All rank flags have an ultramarine blue field with white stars and 2 1/2-inch yellow fringe.
So, be careful of remarks that disparage Ultramarine Blue, it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of tradition.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 03:59:15 AM
For those that knock the "Ultramarine" name tapes it should be pointed out that the official colors of the USAF are "Ultramarine Blue and Air Force Yellow." Today, the official colors of the U.S. Air Force are ultramarine blue and golden yellow, representing the sky and the sun.
All rank flags have an ultramarine blue field with white stars and 2 1/2-inch yellow fringe.
So, be careful of remarks that disparage Ultramarine Blue, it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of tradition.
I hate the color on my uniform as a tape. I love ultramarine blue and golden yellow, but not on my uniform as a color for my tapes. Only patch I don't mind being full color is the US Flag, because those colors represent a lot to all of us. And this is coming from someone with "Blue" by Eiffel 65 being a good representation of how many things in my life are blue. I love blue, and ultramarine blue is my second favorite shade of blue (only under sky/baby blue to me).
Quote from: Littleguy on April 18, 2012, 04:39:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 03:59:15 AM
For those that knock the "Ultramarine" name tapes it should be pointed out that the official colors of the USAF are "Ultramarine Blue and Air Force Yellow." Today, the official colors of the U.S. Air Force are ultramarine blue and golden yellow, representing the sky and the sun.
All rank flags have an ultramarine blue field with white stars and 2 1/2-inch yellow fringe.
So, be careful of remarks that disparage Ultramarine Blue, it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of tradition.
I hate the color on my uniform as a tape. I love ultramarine blue and golden yellow, but not on my uniform as a color for my tapes. Only patch I don't mind being full color is the US Flag, because those colors represent a lot to all of us. And this is coming from someone with "Blue" by Eiffel 65 being a good representation of how many things in my life are blue. I love blue, and ultramarine blue is my second favorite shade of blue (only under sky/baby blue to me).
I was just posting this because I have heard the color being referred to as "stupid" and, being that RESPECT is one of our CORE VALUES and my fondness for tradition, the color need not be described so vitriolically.
I also, after staving my passionate response, suppressed the idea of why we would need a "subdued" name tag if all other "subdued" patches are not allowed by regulation. What would be the intent of a subdued name tape aside from "looking cool?" The change, after some 40 plus years of a blue name tape, would play into the arguments that we are 'posing and pretending" to be the USAF.
In my opinion, the only way said tapes would be in line with credibility is if they were mandated by the USAF for wear or spelled our in USAF Instruction Manuals.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 04:47:09 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on April 18, 2012, 04:39:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 03:59:15 AM
For those that knock the "Ultramarine" name tapes it should be pointed out that the official colors of the USAF are "Ultramarine Blue and Air Force Yellow." Today, the official colors of the U.S. Air Force are ultramarine blue and golden yellow, representing the sky and the sun.
All rank flags have an ultramarine blue field with white stars and 2 1/2-inch yellow fringe.
So, be careful of remarks that disparage Ultramarine Blue, it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of tradition.
I hate the color on my uniform as a tape. I love ultramarine blue and golden yellow, but not on my uniform as a color for my tapes. Only patch I don't mind being full color is the US Flag, because those colors represent a lot to all of us. And this is coming from someone with "Blue" by Eiffel 65 being a good representation of how many things in my life are blue. I love blue, and ultramarine blue is my second favorite shade of blue (only under sky/baby blue to me).
I was just posting this because I have heard the color being referred to as "stupid" and, being that RESPECT is one of our CORE VALUES and my fondness for tradition, the color need not be described so vitriolically.
I also, after staving my passionate response, suppressed the idea of why we would need a "subdued" name tag if all other "subdued" patches are not allowed by regulation. What would be the intent of a subdued name tape aside from "looking cool?" The change, after some 40 plus years of a blue name tape, would play into the arguments that we are 'posing and pretending" to be the USAF.
In my opinion, the only way said tapes would be in line with credibility is if they were mandated by the USAF for wear or spelled our in USAF Instruction Manuals.
Anyone can find any reason to call us posers. I've even heard AD guys call the Reserves a bunch of posers. Just by saying we are the USAF Aux somebody will think we are all posers. We should look like the USAF, we are their Aux. Even JROTC has the right nametapes and patches for the uniforms, and they're much farther away from the military than we are (I'd know, I'm in JROTC). IMO, it looks stupid and unprofessional to have a subdued uniform and all full color patches. It is like getting a dirtbike to ride around on highways with. I respect your opinion, and personally, I don't give a flying foxtrot about the patches, since I'll find some reason to be unhappy with any uniform I get, just like anyone else.
Anyone disrespecting a color must have too much free time and a poor understanding of the traditions it represents.
Quote from: Littleguy on April 18, 2012, 05:29:43 AM
Anyone can find any reason to call us posers. I've even heard AD guys call the Reserves a bunch of posers. Just by saying we are the USAF Aux somebody will think we are all posers. We should look like the USAF, we are their Aux...personally, I don't give a flying foxtrot about the patches.
And, having been ANG, I've heard some pretty nasty things from the AD side too.
Personally,
I don't give a flying foxtrot about those who slap the "poser" label hither and yon...all it tells me is they have some insecurities/issues of their own.
Quote from: titanII on April 18, 2012, 03:08:01 AM
Quote from: ColonelJack on April 16, 2012, 01:56:40 AM
What in the world does the Navy need a camouflage-style uniform for, anyway? (I'm not referring to SEALS or Seabees or anyone who does that kind of work. I'm talking about the regular jobs on board a ship.) What's the purpose of a camouflage uniform on board a ship?
My somewhat uneducated guess is that it could help out in a situation where (for instance) an enemy aircraft is strafing a ship. It'd be a lot harder for that pilot to target sailors that blend in with the ship.
The reason was explained further up in the thread, and has absolutely nothing to do with your guess. The likelihood of a ship getting strafed in today's world is very low.
Does dark blue really count as "subdued"?? Does that mean that police, fire fighters, paramedics/EMTs, and Coast Guard Auxiliary are all wearing subdued uniforms?
Dark blue is just much more "sharp" and professional of a color... as opposed to a bunch of rainbow colors that look like a 5 year old pasted them on. A uniform like that is not exactly the epitome of a "professional image" ...for the public to look at. I think just about anyone you could pull aside on the street and ask this to would agree. It makes us all (including the senior members) look like a bunch of kids playing army.
Is this the image that is really best to be showing to the public... when the life saving activities (and mission) of CAP is actually very serious work? Whether it's right or wrong, people (the public) make judgements based on how professional of an image they see... and take more seriously people and organizations that display such an image.
I have noticed for some time now, what someone just mentioned. State Defense Forces (State Guards), the Coast Guard Auxiliary, Sea Scouts, ROTC, JROTC, and cadet programs all around the country... are all able to wear proper and modern uniforms... that are current with the era we are living in. Many of these groups are not even congressionally chartered like CAP... and yet they are able to find a way to issue uniforms that are current with the times... and which garner the greatest amount of respect from the public.
We all know there is another side of this too... based on the actions/behavior of the people wearing the uniforms. What a person says & does... can bring dishonor to even the best uniforms. That however... is a story for another forum thread...
Saying it is a violation of our core value to call a color stupid? Give me a break. Just because it is a tradition doesn't mean that it is still the right way to go. The AF changed from it a long time ago and its time for us to do so as well.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 18, 2012, 07:04:54 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on April 18, 2012, 05:29:43 AM
Anyone can find any reason to call us posers. I've even heard AD guys call the Reserves a bunch of posers. Just by saying we are the USAF Aux somebody will think we are all posers. We should look like the USAF, we are their Aux...personally, I don't give a flying foxtrot about the patches.
And, having been ANG, I've heard some pretty nasty things from the AD side too.
Personally, I don't give a flying foxtrot about those who slap the "poser" label hither and yon...all it tells me is they have some insecurities/issues of their own.
Exactly. It is their problem, not ours, and we shouldn't have to suffer from it or even consider it in our organization.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
Saying it is a violation of our core value to call a color stupid? Give me a break. Just because it is a tradition doesn't mean that it is still the right way to go. The AF changed from it a long time ago and its time for us to do so as well.
No, it is stupid to call a color stupid that is a representation of our heritage, and the USAF's heritage, not just any color. Just like it is stupid to call red, white, and blue stupid. That doesn't mean I support having that color on my uniform, but I respect the heritage it represents.
I'm partial to "Stupid is as stupid does" myself. ::)
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 18, 2012, 10:44:23 AMI have noticed for some time now, what someone just mentioned. State Defense Forces (State Guards), the Coast Guard Auxiliary, Sea Scouts, ROTC, JROTC, and cadet programs all around the country... are all able to wear proper and modern uniforms... that are current with the era we are living in. Many of these groups are not even congressionally chartered like CAP... and yet they are able to find a way to issue uniforms that are current with the times... and which garner the greatest amount of respect from the public.
We all know there is another side of this too... based on the actions/behavior of the people wearing the uniforms. What a person says & does... can bring dishonor to even the best uniforms. That however... is a story for another forum thread...
We operate by the rules given us despite what other are allowed to do. All the "kings horses and all the kingsmen's" CAPTALK discussions accomplish nothing if the USAF says no.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 05:54:48 PM
Quote from: supertigerCH on April 18, 2012, 10:44:23 AMI have noticed for some time now, what someone just mentioned. State Defense Forces (State Guards), the Coast Guard Auxiliary, Sea Scouts, ROTC, JROTC, and cadet programs all around the country... are all able to wear proper and modern uniforms... that are current with the era we are living in. Many of these groups are not even congressionally chartered like CAP... and yet they are able to find a way to issue uniforms that are current with the times... and which garner the greatest amount of respect from the public.
We all know there is another side of this too... based on the actions/behavior of the people wearing the uniforms. What a person says & does... can bring dishonor to even the best uniforms. That however... is a story for another forum thread...
We operate by the rules given us despite what other are allowed to do. All the "kings horses and all the kingsmen's" CAPTALK discussions accomplish nothing if the USAF says no.
Very true!!
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2012, 05:54:48 PM
We operate by the rules given us despite what other are allowed to do. All the "kings horses and all the kingsmen's" CAPTALK discussions accomplish nothing if the USAF says no.
Especially if the rules make no bloody sense...like the "low-light/at-a-distance" bit.
I have some faith that the Air Force will see the wisdom of changing our nametape/etc. colors to something that looks good.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 19, 2012, 01:08:31 AM
I have some faith that the Air Force will see the wisdom of changing our nametape/etc. colors to something that looks good.
IE the real nametapes they wear on their uniforms, like olive green with black lettering on the BDU and midnight navy lettering on ABU for the ABU. Anything else just looks stupid.
The interesting thing is... UltraMarine Blue (on it's own) is a decent looking color.
The question many people here have... is if on the BDU uniform... it is the most appropriate & professional choice for a 21st century Air Force Auxiliary. Many of these people (in the forum) probably don't have a problem with the color itself. Just my guess anyway...
I don't have any issue with the color on the BDU, but I know it would be hideous on the ABU. But yet again, let's wait and see what happens. You know it will come up in uniform committee talks, it has been said so here on CT, that it was a question being thought out by the uniform committee, they even had some nice images to go with it of uniforms on mannequins with blue name tapes and sage name tapes. The sage and white looks pretty darn good to me.