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Started by SAR-EMT1, January 26, 2007, 03:12:57 AM

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jayleswo

The statement that the "... Observer is in charge of the CAP mission..." is, in my experience, mostly untrue in reality.  I know this is what they are teaching now and it's in the MART, but in practice many Observers don't have the experience to be in charge of anything more than themselves, particularly if they are not also pilots.

A less experienced MP may depend upon an en experienced CAP Observer to a greater extent. A highly experienced SAR/DR Mission Pilot will take charge of both the flight and the mission. He may, if he has an experienced Observer in the right seat, delegate responsibilities such as Ops Normal checks, verifying navigation and grid assignment, DF gear, CAP comm, air/ground coordination, etc.  It is more common to have a relatively inexperienced Observer on board.

Pre-sortie, the MP may ask the Observer to perform some pre-sortie planning, again, depends on their experience and skillset. Post sortie the MP will usually have the Observer discuss sortie results and POD. I've never seen a CAP Observer be "in charge of the scene" when over the ground team. The GTL is the on-scene commander, while the aircrew will provide support.

So, again,, in my experience, more common for MP to be the aircrew leader and delegate tasks and responsibilities to the Observer and Scanner. FYI, I'm a Master Observer with 20+ years flying right seat. Also a CAP Pilot.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col, CAP
Commander, PCR-CA_151

John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP

SAR/DR MP, Mission Check Pilot Examiner, Master Observer
Earhart #1139 FEB 1982

RiverAux

However, it is very common for two pilots to switch off who is PIC from left to right seat, and that would allow someone to build hours while sitting in the right seat.  Usually this is done during "transport" phases of missions. 

O-Rex

Quote from: RiverAux on February 18, 2007, 02:00:05 AM
However, it is very common for two pilots to switch off who is PIC from left to right seat, and that would allow someone to build hours while sitting in the right seat.  Usually this is done during "transport" phases of missions. 

There was a time when PIC from the right seat was prohibited, but that seems to have been dropped from 60-1 (?)

flyguy06

Quote from: jayleswo on February 16, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
The statement that the "... Observer is in charge of the CAP mission..." is, in my experience, mostly untrue in reality.  I know this is what they are teaching now and it's in the MART, but in practice many Observers don't have the experience to be in charge of anything more than themselves, particularly if they are not also pilots.

A less experienced MP may depend upon an en experienced CAP Observer to a greater extent. A highly experienced SAR/DR Mission Pilot will take charge of both the flight and the mission. He may, if he has an experienced Observer in the right seat, delegate responsibilities such as Ops Normal checks, verifying navigation and grid assignment, DF gear, CAP comm, air/ground coordination, etc.  It is more common to have a relatively inexperienced Observer on board.

Pre-sortie, the MP may ask the Observer to perform some pre-sortie planning, again, depends on their experience and skillset. Post sortie the MP will usually have the Observer discuss sortie results and POD. I've never seen a CAP Observer be "in charge of the scene" when over the ground team. The GTL is the on-scene commander, while the aircrew will provide support.

So, again,, in my experience, more common for MP to be the aircrew leader and delegate tasks and responsibilities to the Observer and Scanner. FYI, I'm a Master Observer with 20+ years flying right seat. Also a CAP Pilot.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col, CAP
Commander, PCR-CA_151



Thats because for the most part, MP's dont have any confidense in the MO so they take charge themselves. The only way to gain real expereince is to do it, make mistakes,learn fromthem and do it again. However MP'swont allow MO's to make mistakes and learn and thats why MO's remain inexpereinced. They are never really givine a chance to be in charge. The MP should humble himself andlet the MO lead and plan missions . They will make misyakes but thats how you learn.


aveighter

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 18, 2007, 11:42:42 PM
Thats because for the most part, MP's dont have any confidense in the MO so they take charge themselves. The only way to gain real expereince is to do it, make mistakes,learn fromthem and do it again. However MP'swont allow MO's to make mistakes and learn and thats why MO's remain inexpereinced. They are never really givine a chance to be in charge. The MP should humble himself andlet the MO lead and plan missions . They will make misyakes but thats how you learn.

Truly, you must have an astonishing amount of experience with a vast number of MPs over a great number of missions through out the many wings to make such a sweeping and conclusive indictment.

Impressive, quite impressive.  Perhaps you could apply your considerable diagnostic skills to world peace, or perhaps global warming.

flyguy06

Quote from: aveighter on February 19, 2007, 03:53:02 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on February 18, 2007, 11:42:42 PM
Thats because for the most part, MP's dont have any confidense in the MO so they take charge themselves. The only way to gain real expereince is to do it, make mistakes,learn fromthem and do it again. However MP'swont allow MO's to make mistakes and learn and thats why MO's remain inexpereinced. They are never really givine a chance to be in charge. The MP should humble himself andlet the MO lead and plan missions . They will make misyakes but thats how you learn.

Truly, you must have an astonishing amount of experience with a vast number of MPs over a great number of missions through out the many wings to make such a sweeping and conclusive indictment.

Impressive, quite impressive.  Perhaps you could apply your considerable diagnostic skills to world peace, or perhaps global warming.

I wish. I have onlky been in CAP since 1984 so yu decide how much experience that is.

DNall

Quote from: jayleswo on February 16, 2007, 06:34:03 PM
The statement that the "... Observer is in charge of the CAP mission..." is, in my experience, mostly untrue in reality.  I know this is what they are teaching now and it's in the MART, but in practice many Observers don't have the experience to be in charge of anything more than themselves, particularly if they are not also pilots.

A less experienced MP may depend upon an en experienced CAP Observer to a greater extent. A highly experienced SAR/DR Mission Pilot will take charge of both the flight and the mission. He may, if he has an experienced Observer in the right seat, delegate responsibilities such as Ops Normal checks, verifying navigation and grid assignment, DF gear, CAP comm, air/ground coordination, etc.  It is more common to have a relatively inexperienced Observer on board.

Pre-sortie, the MP may ask the Observer to perform some pre-sortie planning, again, depends on their experience and skillset. Post sortie the MP will usually have the Observer discuss sortie results and POD. I've never seen a CAP Observer be "in charge of the scene" when over the ground team. The GTL is the on-scene commander, while the aircrew will provide support.

So, again,, in my experience, more common for MP to be the aircrew leader and delegate tasks and responsibilities to the Observer and Scanner. FYI, I'm a Master Observer with 20+ years flying right seat. Also a CAP Pilot.
Yeah that tends to be the case. If you look back earlier in the thread, you'll see that's part of the justification mentioned in reordering the scanner observer training. Thereby making basic observers into master rated aircrew, & requiring more actual flight time to get that far, while btter breaking down the tasks & admin to make it easier to accomplish at the same standards. Then there would be a whole differet set of wings that kick in over that level for navigator/observer or whatever you want to call it, and that's where you'd get into being in overall command of the mission (ie command & control responsibilities), open up the adanced gear, sensitive misisons, and progression AOBD & such.

O-Rex

Quote from: flyguy06 on February 18, 2007, 11:42:42 PM
Thats because for the most part, MP's dont have any confidense in the MO so they take charge themselves. The only way to gain real expereince is to do it, make mistakes,learn fromthem and do it again. However MP'swont allow MO's to make mistakes and learn and thats why MO's remain inexpereinced. They are never really givine a chance to be in charge. The MP should humble himself andlet the MO lead and plan missions . They will make misyakes but thats how you learn.

I've seen some MO's who went through the motions just to get the badge, and are nearly useless in the cockpit, or alleged high-time Observers who still get "mike-fright."  Unfortunately, the rest of us also have to live with the stigma.  Nonetheless, MO's have reputations too: If you're a good one, word usually gets around, and pilots and/or IC's will actually seek you out.  Usually once MP's see that you demonstrate a degree of competence, they'll loosen up a bit, and let you do your thing. 

I've been very lucky in that nearly all the pilots I've flown with are highly professional and very high-time folks who are either CFI/II's, ATP's, ex-Mil jockeys, or a combination thereof, so not only do they let me "touch stuff," but I usually learn something new every time I fly.  The pilots are usually happy to teach or go over a few practical review exercises-keeps them sharp too, and it also breaks the tedium of a long flight to or from a mission base.

Keep in mind that pilots spend considerable amounts of time, money and effort to get where they are (CAP Mission Pilots even more so.)  Someone whose total flight-related training consists of two days of classroom work and a few flights under their belt isn't going to easily impress them.  As a good MO, you need to study material above & beyond what you learn in your Scanner/Observer training, and review, review, review, because MO skills are just as perishable as a Pilot's, particularly since non-pilot MO's don't typically get to fly as often. 

If you can get your hands on simulator software, like the Apollo GX-55/60, all the better: when you haven't flown in a while, you can still use it with your sectional and "fly" your own missions.   

What you bring with you to the airplane says a lot about your level of training & professionalism: I've seen scanners & observers enter the cockpit empty-handed (?!) expecting the pilot to provide charts.   Personally, I keep a pubs-bag with all kinds of goodies, including gridded sectionals and TCA's for my entire state(you never know where a CN or DR mission will take you.)  I do have a spare sectional for the Scanner, which I lend them with the admonition "next time you need to bring your own."  I am not a Pilot, but the quality of my personal gear is as good as, if not better than a lot of CAP Pilots.  Overkill?  You have a job to do, and you bring the tools you need to do it.   Just because you don't have a pilot-ticket doesn't mean you can't be as conscientious.     

Get involved! I've seen cases where the MP attends a mission brief, then comes back & briefs the crew-No-go: Unless the IC or AOBD says otherwise, you attend the brief.  If the acft is tied down when you and the pilot arrive, start untying.  If your crew is the last to use the plane, help tie it up.  When it's time to refuel, get out there.  These tasks are easy to learn.  It's not about "helping the pilot" as much as part of being one crew working together: depending on the mission, you might be under-the-gun to make a time-on-target deadline. 

Some MO's develop a level of expertise and experience in a particular mission profile that makes them the "go-to" person for certain situations, particularly if your wing or region has certain types of ongoing missions. Being an integral part of a successful mission, or effectively assisting the MP when dodging sudden bad weather or dealing with something equally unpleasant can not only give you added-value as an MO, but can be a bonding experience as well.

In CAP, as well as in other organizations, there is a bit of exclusivity in the flying community, and even pilots need to prove their mettle.  Develop, maintain and demonstrate a high level of competence and professionalism as a Mission Observer: you might not get the "secret handshake" from every pilot, but at least you'll be respected for what you can do. 


SAR-EMT1

Ok, let me work that around in my brain a bit and ask something else:
What would be considered the "bare minimum" amount of charts/gear etc
for a scanner or observer to bring to a sortie/ Mission Base?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Al Sayre

At a minimum, I would expect a qualified observer to have:

A headset

Clipboard & Pad

Pens & Highlighters

Flashlight

Some CAPF 104's & CAPF108's and a NASA Safety Reporting Form

Aircrew Flight Guide

Gridded Sectional(s) for the Wing AO
Current Sectional(s) for the Wing AO
Delorme book if availble for the Wing AO

Any other good maps of the local areas that can be used to identify locations visually.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

aveighter

In my opinion, O-Rex's post is the most cogent presentation on the matter yet written.  Well said!