Scanner Wings

[DNall]

I'm a little sensitive about the whole pilot bashing thing so lighten up, eh?

No problems. My experience may be a bit unique. I'll save you the background on why, but I think most real observers have been thrown into similiar situations a few times at least. That doesn't mean it's anything like the majority of MPs.

Anyway this thread is in this section rather than the uniform section because it talks about reordering the scanner/observer taining, in order to create more of those real observers & get the idiots looking for wings out of the way, or at least give them incentive to drive on to something more meaningful.

[SAR-EMT1]

When I started this thread, my intent was not so much to direct attention towards better observer qualifications, but rather towards getting something to recognize SCANNER training.

REPLY # 14 by Maj C illistrates my point...

I am a GTL and working on GBD; I am a Ground Ops type. However, I am an advocate of the RealMilitary belief that an Officer should be a generalist and not a specialist.

So... I am taking the Scanner Course so that I have a level of familiarity with the AC side of things, and so that - if needed- I can "pinch hit" as Scanner for a mission. 

However, as I do not intend to advance in AC past Scanner, I would appriciate something to show that Ive put forth the effort.
And that is why I started the thread. .. However, I will say that Ive certainly picked up alot of knowledge in listening to the ideas about MP, Observer and Archer etc...

[Hawk200]

I'm not real heavy on creating a scanner wing. I don't think it would be a bad idea to create an "aircrew" wing for anyone other than pilots and observers. There are guys that handle the comm equipment in High Birds that fly, and don't really need to be a scanner to do it. I don't really know of any other at the moment, but I imagine that eventually there will be.

Maybe to be distinctive and show that it's an aircrew position of a different type, a  badge similar to the old glider wings or Air Assault badge. Both indicate something related to flight, but different duties.

[Psicorp]

As I understand it, National is pushing that Observers be in command of the mission including planning and mission decision making, whereas pilots would be in command of the aircraft; this is currently being taught at the National aircrew academy.

This makes sense, but will definately be difficult to implement, especially for the more umm...seasoned pilots who won't like not being in full command. 

Scanner Wings?  Why?  Next there will be a request for a UDF badge.  Both Scanner and UDF are more or less training and familiarization qualifications for the next step.

I'm currently working on the Observer tasks...can't wait to get that JAFO hat 

[Hawk200]

I'm currently working on the Observer tasks...can't wait to get that JAFO hat 

I had a suspicion that I wasn't the only one... 

[Psicorp]

I'm currently working on the Observer tasks...can't wait to get that JAFO hat 

I had a suspicion that I wasn't the only one... 

No sir, you're definately not 

On a side note, does anyone know if there is a branch of the military who still authorizes the "half wing" wings?    I know some Navigators/GIBs (Guy In Back) used to wear them, but I haven't seen any in quite a while. 

If there is someone here from National who's seriously looking at a Scanner insignia (because the one thing we lack in CAP is insignia), then reviving that might be an option (and I'm not endorsing that by any stretch of the imagination).

[Al Sayre]

You know, Scanners and UDF's do have a "badge".  The "Pluto Patch" or T-34 patch which are awarded for completeing the first specialty qualification after GES.

[Hawk200]

On a side note, does anyone know if there is a branch of the military who still authorizes the "half wing" wings?    I know some Navigators/GIBs (Guy In Back) used to wear them, but I haven't seen any in quite a while. 

I checked a few of the military uniform manuals, and I don't see anything that would really amount to a  "half-wing" with the exception of maybe an Army Pathfinder badge.

If there is someone here from National who's seriously looking at a Scanner insignia (because the one thing we lack in CAP is insignia), then reviving that might be an option (and I'm not endorsing that by any stretch of the imagination).

I would think that if the military doesn't have any, that would be all the more reason not to do so.

[Hawk200]

You know, Scanners and UDF's do have a "badge".  The "Pluto Patch" or T-34 patch which are awarded for completeing the first specialty qualification after GES.

And I still can't tell the difference between a scanner or a UDF'er, unless I ask them. Then again, anything over and above GES gets the patch too.

How about a General ES badge, and a General Aircrew badge?

[Al Sayre]

From what I've seen, the scanners tend to wear the T-34 and the UDF folks tend towards the Pluto Patch.  I realize that's not universal, and that either is an option, but before they get in an airplane someone had better be checking a 101 card anyway...

[SarDragon]

From what I've seen, the scanners tend to wear the T-34 and the UDF folks tend towards the Pluto Patch.  I realize that's not universal, and that either is an option, but before they get in an airplane someone had better be checking a 101 card anyway...

FWIW I wouldn't get caught dead wearing the Pluto. U-G-L-Y, its history and origins notwithstanding.

YMMV.

[SAR-EMT1]

From what I've seen, the scanners tend to wear the T-34 and the UDF folks tend towards the Pluto Patch.  I realize that's not universal, and that either is an option, but before they get in an airplane someone had better be checking a 101 card anyway...

FWIW I wouldn't get caught dead wearing the Pluto. U-G-L-Y, its history and origins notwithstanding.

YMMV.

No offense, but I would say that the airplane patch is worse then Pluto.

[Hawk200]

FWIW I wouldn't get caught dead wearing the Pluto. U-G-L-Y, its history and origins notwithstanding.

Hmmm, I always actually liked the "Pluto" patch (since it was brought back anyway). Always thought it had "personality".

[Hawk200]

From what I've seen, the scanners tend to wear the T-34 and the UDF folks tend towards the Pluto Patch.  I realize that's not universal, and that either is an option, but before they get in an airplane someone had better be checking a 101 card anyway...

On the BDU's, either seems alright. I do not like the placement on the flightsuit. I think it looks tacky.

I once saw a guy in California that was wearing it over his leather nametag on the flightsuit. Legality aside, I thought it looked better there than on the pocket. I won't wear one on the flightsuit because I don't care for the placement. Not to mention having "MISSION SCANNER" on the nametag shows you have an ES qual anyway.

[aveighter]

As I understand it, National is pushing that Observers be in command of the mission including planning and mission decision making, whereas pilots would be in command of the aircraft; this is currently being taught at the National aircrew academy.

This makes sense, but will definitely be difficult to implement, especially for the more umm...seasoned pilots who won't like not being in full command. 

I'm currently working on the Observer tasks...can't wait to get that JAFO hat 

Nor sure what an umm...seasoned pilot is.

Anyway,  you are right in that there is a thought that the observer could operate as a mission director of sorts.  And, I'll say, there is actually some merit to the idea given a MO with a certain level of training and experience.  I think we are a ways from that as a standard today, however.

I must point out again that as the pilot bears legal responsibilities for all aspects and all phases of aircraft operations, the pilot will, indeed must, retain overall command authority of the entirety of the mission profile that involves any aspect of the airplane.  So if you think there is some subtle egomania at work in the "not being in full command" issue (not saying pilots don't have well developed egos) you're wrong.

If I'm going to be issued full responsibility (by law) for adverse outcomes, I'll accept that responsibility only if I have full command authority to affect those outcomes in a positive manner.  I doubt you will find many pilots that will argue with that position.  A well trained MO (pilot or non-pilot) is a necessity given todays more complex equipment and mission profiles and complicated airspace.  But if it all goes poorly, it's the pilot (or his estate) that will pay the price.

[Major Carrales]

The way I've seen it, the Mission Pilot is in overall command of flight operations and the Mission Observer in command, sort of speak, of the tasks of the CAP mission.

By this I mean that every Pilot has a veto power over anything that effects the flying of the Aircraft.   This power I consider to be basically inherent to the pilot at all times while flying.  Including when there has been a "delegation" of responsibilities.

The Pilot should do no scanning nor overly concern himself in the actual Scanning/Observing (there are as many as three sets of eyes doing that); but rather insure that the aircraft is safely flying.  All judgements on where the aircraft goes, conduct in the aircraft and elements that deal with safe flying go to the PIC and should never be out of the PICs realm of control.  The Mission Observer is sort of an "administrator," for the Scanners and for providing Mission Base with intellegence on the Mission.

In a way it is a precarious thing...the pilot may choose to turn some duties over to the Observer for whatever purpose, but should never really lose sight of those delegated powers, for the pilot bears legal responsibilities for all aspects and all phases of aircraft operations.

Am I wrong?   I begin Mission Scanner sorties this weekend.

[aveighter]

You are on target Major.  Please don't stop at scanner.  With the exception of SDIS duties in the back seat the real action is up front.  A skilled MO is critical to the success of the aircrew team.  Your term of mission administrator is a good one. 

The skills of a good MO will encompass a fair amount of what one learns in the course of pilot training and are utilized in the ability to integrate the mission plan with the flight plan and then making it all come together in the air.  Especially when being re-tasked while in flight requiring a new plan real quick.  Now throw in a glass cockpit with all it's knobs, buttons, bells and do-dads, communicating with multiple entities...you get the picture.

So, blast thru that scanner business and move to the front of the bus.  You're going to look marvelous in the zippered sun-god suit!

The Ground Teams?  Let them eat dirt whilst we slip those surly bonds! 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm currently working on the Observer tasks...can't wait to get that JAFO hat 

I had a suspicion that I wasn't the only one... 

No sir, you're definately not 

On a side note, does anyone know if there is a branch of the military who still authorizes the "half wing" wings?    I know some Navigators/GIBs (Guy In Back) used to wear them, but I haven't seen any in quite a while. 

If there is someone here from National who's seriously looking at a Scanner insignia (because the one thing we lack in CAP is insignia), then reviving that might be an option (and I'm not endorsing that by any stretch of the imagination).

CAP used to have a half-wing for observers back in WWII, and during the 60's there was a "Stewardess" wing for female cadets who went through CAP stewardess training.  (Yes, we had that).

Besides that, the RAF still uses a half-wing for navigator/bombardiers.

That's all that I know about.

[flyguy06]

When I started this thread, my intent was not so much to direct attention towards better observer qualifications, but rather towards getting something to recognize SCANNER training.

REPLY # 14 by Maj C illistrates my point...

I am a GTL and working on GBD; I am a Ground Ops type. However, I am an advocate of the RealMilitary belief that an Officer should be a generalist and not a specialist.

So... I am taking the Scanner Course so that I have a level of familiarity with the AC side of things, and so that - if needed- I can "pinch hit" as Scanner for a mission. 

However, as I do not intend to advance in AC past Scanner, I would appriciate something to show that Ive put forth the effort.
And that is why I started the thread. .. However, I will say that Ive certainly picked up alot of knowledge in listening to the ideas about MP, Observer and Archer etc...

Thats one thing I have noticed about this website, questions tend to drift into a totally different area.

[DNall]

I think people are confusing that in command thing a bit. The pilot is in command of the plane & what's going on inside it. How you break down front seat tasks in pre-flight is ultimately his deal. The observer is in charge of the CAP mission, that is the CAP responsibilities inside the plane, but mostly the responsibilities outside. They are supposed to be directing teh search activity of the scanner & monitoring the crew, and when you get over a GT, the observer is in charge of the scene. The pilot's job is to tfly the plane safely & support what the team is doing.

Both those ES patches are tacky looking on any uniform. They mean nothing & are basically the default. It loos fine sewn on your ruck, but otherwise it's dumb looking.

Let me say again. There will be NO wings for what we call scanner now. Doing so would be counter productive to our ES mission & should not happen under any circumstances.

However, we do need to work on the scanner/oberver track to integrate all the new gear & mission profiles, while pushing up the overall requirements to assume those leadership roles, and making the insignia more meaningful as an indicator of ratings and capability would be nice. The plan discussed here is three levels of aircrew that cover scanner to basic observer w/ 2 flights each, just re-order the task guid to streamline the administrative/logistics process, add a few additonal tasks (overwater, survival, etc) that people take as additional training. Then part two is the Nav/Observer wings that start at a level abover observer, bring in the advanced gear, command & control functions, etc at the basic level... the master level being AOBD.