SCOTUS left chance of rewrite.
SCOTUS Opinion: www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-210d4e9.pdf (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-210d4e9.pdf)
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/07/11/pentagon-plans-database-to-track-awards-and-medals.html?ESRC=dod-a_C.nl (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/07/11/pentagon-plans-database-to-track-awards-and-medals.html?ESRC=dod-a_C.nl)
"The Pentagon plans to establish a searchable database of military valor awards and medals, hoping for a technological fix to the problem of people getting away with lying about earning military honors.
Pentagon press secretary George Little said details have yet to be worked out, but the intention is to have a digital repository of records on a range of valor awards and medals going back as far in history as possible.
The move is in response to a June 28 Supreme Court ruling that invalidated a law making it a crime to lie about receiving the Medal of Honor and other military decorations. An authoritative database would make it easier to check on award claims, and perhaps would deter some who would make false public claims."
One problem with that is that there are more people that claim to be SEALs, Delta, SF, or SOG than there are that claim the MOH. Plus, a lot of guys claim lesser awards that the MOH, DSC, SS, NC, AFC. There are thousands of MSMs, Commendation, and Achievement Medals handed out every year. I don't think it's feasible to put all those on a database. Nor is it practical or wise to put out the names of the real deal SPECOPS guys. Yeah, it galls me to no end that these guys can claim some of this stuff and keep a straight face while doing it, but like the SCOTUS said telling a whopper no matter how irksome is still free speech. If they use it to get money or some of value, then you can jump on them for fraud.
A better solution is to get the names of the real heroes out there. There are millions of kids out there that can tell you what Justin Beiber had for breakfast or where he(?) bought his Snicker Doodles yesterday but they can't name 5 real life MOH winners. This is what they ought to be learning and not what Snookie tweeted today.
Another, is to take claims like this from people you don't know with a grain of salt. Guys who are the real deal won't mind you checking them out after some of the stories and idiots that have come down the pike in the last few years. Read the book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley to find out how to check for yourself.
Also, read history and about the real events so that when these guys give out incorrect information which they almost always do, you can recognize that they may not be quite kosher yourself.
You make some very good points. I agree it is not the best solution but at least it is something. Personally, I had a short 3 year undistinguished peacetime Army career. I have nothing or very little to boast about in regards to my own service but I will be [darn]ed if I or anyone should ever claim achievement they did not earn. I was just a helicopter mechanic though I did graduate Air Assault School at Ft Campbell.... whoopie! But I did know a few real warriors and the thought of someone claiming to be one who isn't is sickening and maddening.
Quote from: ol'fido on July 15, 2012, 01:58:06 AM
One problem with that is that there are more people that claim to be SEALs, Delta, SF, or SOG than there are that claim the MOH. Plus, a lot of guys claim lesser awards that the MOH, DSC, SS, NC, AFC. There are thousands of MSMs, Commendation, and Achievement Medals handed out every year. I don't think it's feasible to put all those on a database. Nor is it practical or wise to put out the names of the real deal SPECOPS guys. Yeah, it galls me to no end that these guys can claim some of this stuff and keep a straight face while doing it, but like the SCOTUS said telling a whopper no matter how irksome is still free speech. If they use it to get money or some of value, then you can jump on them for fraud.
A better solution is to get the names of the real heroes out there. There are millions of kids out there that can tell you what Justin Beiber had for breakfast or where he(?) bought his Snicker Doodles yesterday but they can't name 5 real life MOH winners. This is what they ought to be learning and not what Snookie tweeted today.
Another, is to take claims like this from people you don't know with a grain of salt. Guys who are the real deal won't mind you checking them out after some of the stories and idiots that have come down the pike in the last few years. Read the book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley to find out how to check for yourself.
Also, read history and about the real events so that when these guys give out incorrect information which they almost always do, you can recognize that they may not be quite kosher yourself.
Um...yes it is.
Databases with millions or even billions of rows are entirely feasible. A database tracking every time every member of the armed forces takes a dump on a daily basis is entirely feasible, tracking a hundred different awards and such is, in the database world, child's play.
Quote from: JeffDG on July 16, 2012, 11:59:48 AM
Um...yes it is.
Databases with millions or even billions of rows are entirely feasible. A database tracking every time every member of the armed forces takes a dump on a daily basis is entirely feasible, tracking a hundred different awards and such is, in the database world, child's play.
I would think the biggest hurdle to overcome would be the data entry. There's always a few errors from humans typing things in from a paper form. Other than that, I agree with you.
Wouldn't there already be a chunk of that data available for current service members? I gotta' think the DoD has been using electronic records along with papers one for a while. I would think that awards & decs would be part of those records and coupe be ported out to start the new database.
One other issue I understand is the loss of some paper records from a fire. I don't know the extent of the loss, but that's going to be unfortunate for a part of the new database.
I think there would be security issues with a database. I wouldn't want my name in it.
With the current budget crunch in DoD, those folks are going to be very reluctant to spend the manpower to create a database of awards and decorations: it would very likely run into many millions of dollars and a lot of time. If I remember correctly, the DD214 has decorations listed, but there are literally millions of awards and decs that never make it to a 214. I know that my 214 does not list all my awards and decs, because it was issued before I spent 21 years in the Reserves.
I don't agree with the SCOTUS opinion, but at the end of this, it's about honor, and you can't legislate honor.
In most cases, the most egregious offenders in these cases are disturbed people who have some mental issue that
is fed by receiving accolades they don't deserve. That's annoying, even flabbergasting, but in the end, not really a
big deal in the Grande Scheme®. In a lot of these cases, the solution is handled locally and everyone moves on.
In cases where the offender is using a military uniform to commit fraud, then there's plenty of laws on the books already
that cover the fraud itself, irrespective of the clothing the offender is wearing.
Probably the best thing we can do is just spread the word, some here have pretty extensive circles, in their towns, VFW's,
Legion Halls, etc., to "trust but verify", and require substantiation anytime money is going to change hands, etc.
My personal, limited, experience in this area has been the legit heroes and SF guys, etc., are generally not too excited about
making their history too public, outside closed doors with others in the club, but they also won't hesitate to provide
substantiation when they have to.
As to a national database, it'll probably e a lot of smoke and no fire. We've discussed before that the offender rarely
bump themselves a single stripe or add in an extra UC or GCM - they are flashing the "high-end bling" - tridents, general's
stars, MoH, etc. And that stuff is verifiable today.
I'll bet there are many awards and decorations that never make it to a DD214. Mine for example does not list the award of Air Crew Wings. I have somewhere a PA awarding the Korean Service medal, however that was a mistake since I didn't earn it. Under decorations, zip nada, not even National Defense Ribbon.
In today's AFA newsletter it was announced that the medals data base will be established. Problem is the determination of which awards wil be included. As staed in an earlier post Commendation and Achievement medals are so common that the list would be endless. I would think it would end with the Bronze Star.
OPINION: Those who feel the need to inflate their own pathetic egos by falsely claiming they won a Silver Star or a DFC or Navy Cross or the MOH are nothing short of cowards. Karma will bite them in the @$$ at some point.
There was a bridge collapse in Oklahoma back in the early part of the 2000s and some guy claiming to be an Army Special Forces captain was caught on tape trying to offer assistance. He actually manipulated himself into being in charge of the situation for 3 days. He not only skipped town owing a hotel some $900, he showed up the NEXT DAY 230 miles away and conned the owners of a Dodge truck dealership into "lending" him a 1997 pickup. He was arrested, served five years and was arrested again for making a phone call to the Russian embassy claiming he was involved in a plot to assassinate Vladmir Putin. He had been pulling crap like that for a while, and prior to this he was busted by a REAL Soldier at a gunshow who made the imposter remove all the Army insignia, then forwarded his info on the guy to the FBI. Eventually, the guy was caught for a "massive" check-fraud scheme involving military travel in Alaska and (as of August 2011) was awaiting sentencing for that crime.
I think that people who are dissatisfied in their lives make up stuff to make them feel better, but this is where I draw the line. I make no pretenses about my military service, or lack thereof. I went in on July 3, 1986 and was out just over a month later on August 7, 1986. I had physical and emotional problems that led me to seek a discharge. I do not tell people that I was in the Army; to me, it's the same as quitting a job during orientation. It doesn't count. I think it would be the height of arrogance and a great insult to those who actually serve for me to claim that I was in the Army.
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 16, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
OPINION: Those who feel the need to inflate their own pathetic egos by falsely claiming they won a Silver Star or a DFC or Navy Cross or the MOH are nothing short of cowards. Karma will bite them in the @$$ at some point.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I doubt if there is much debate about that.
The one thing I've never gotten was how someone could try to fake the MOH. There are so many records on the award that go very far back (covering any person who could possibly be alive today) that a quick google search would show they were not awarded a MOH.
Quote from: ol'fido on July 15, 2012, 01:58:06 AM
One problem with that is that there are more people that claim to be SEALs, Delta, SF, or SOG than there are that claim the MOH. Plus, a lot of guys claim lesser awards that the MOH, DSC, SS, NC, AFC. There are thousands of MSMs, Commendation, and Achievement Medals handed out every year. I don't think it's feasible to put all those on a database. Nor is it practical or wise to put out the names of the real deal SPECOPS guys. Yeah, it galls me to no end that these guys can claim some of this stuff and keep a straight face while doing it, but like the SCOTUS said telling a whopper no matter how irksome is still free speech. If they use it to get money or some of value, then you can jump on them for fraud.
First....it is no problem gathering and creating the Data base.....those thousands of acheivement, commendation, and all the rest have to go through the base awards section at some point in the process. The data is already there for everyone...either in their active personnel records or in the DD214.
Second.....For all the SPECOPS/INTEL guys......their award packages ARE NOT CLASSIFIED! THEY NEVER CLASSIFY THEM! Not the part that ends up on the decoration write up anyways.
QuoteA better solution is to get the names of the real heroes out there. There are millions of kids out there that can tell you what Justin Beiber had for breakfast or where he(?) bought his Snicker Doodles yesterday but they can't name 5 real life MOH winners. This is what they ought to be learning and not what Snookie tweeted today.
Well when real life is a cool as a reality show...maybe.
QuoteAnother, is to take claims like this from people you don't know with a grain of salt. Guys who are the real deal won't mind you checking them out after some of the stories and idiots that have come down the pike in the last few years. Read the book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley to find out how to check for yourself.
Also, read history and about the real events so that when these guys give out incorrect information which they almost always do, you can recognize that they may not be quite kosher yourself.
The point of the data base is for the people who want to check them out can do that quickly and easily.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 17, 2012, 01:50:58 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 15, 2012, 01:58:06 AM
One problem with that is that there are more people that claim to be SEALs, Delta, SF, or SOG than there are that claim the MOH. Plus, a lot of guys claim lesser awards that the MOH, DSC, SS, NC, AFC. There are thousands of MSMs, Commendation, and Achievement Medals handed out every year. I don't think it's feasible to put all those on a database. Nor is it practical or wise to put out the names of the real deal SPECOPS guys. Yeah, it galls me to no end that these guys can claim some of this stuff and keep a straight face while doing it, but like the SCOTUS said telling a whopper no matter how irksome is still free speech. If they use it to get money or some of value, then you can jump on them for fraud.
First....it is no problem gathering and creating the Data base.....those thousands of acheivement, commendation, and all the rest have to go through the base awards section at some point in the process. The data is already there for everyone...either in their active personnel records or in the DD214.
Second.....For all the SPECOPS/INTEL guys......their award packages ARE NOT CLASSIFIED! THEY NEVER CLASSIFY THEM! Not the part that ends up on the decoration write up anyways.
QuoteA better solution is to get the names of the real heroes out there. There are millions of kids out there that can tell you what Justin Beiber had for breakfast or where he(?) bought his Snicker Doodles yesterday but they can't name 5 real life MOH winners. This is what they ought to be learning and not what Snookie tweeted today.
Well when real life is a cool as a reality show...maybe.
QuoteAnother, is to take claims like this from people you don't know with a grain of salt. Guys who are the real deal won't mind you checking them out after some of the stories and idiots that have come down the pike in the last few years. Read the book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley to find out how to check for yourself.
Also, read history and about the real events so that when these guys give out incorrect information which they almost always do, you can recognize that they may not be quite kosher yourself.
The point of the data base is for the people who want to check them out can do that quickly and easily.
Didn't say that SPECOPS "AWARDS" were classified. I said for those claiming to be SPECOPS there could not be a database of PERSONNEL to verify it. I know that SEALs and a couple of other groups have websites where you can submit a name and some info and they will let you know if they are the real deal or not. www.veriseal.org (http://www.veriseal.org) for example.
Just like Bosshawk said, yes there are records of comm. and ach. medals out there and online, but gathering them into one searchable database is not economical or really feasible. It would be major overkill. I just don't see that as a priority for DOD.