honor gaurd

[cadet zimmerman]

i was wondering if anyone knew where to buy honor gaurd uniforms or if your squadron could donate any



                               -C/Amn kyle s. zimmerman

[DC]

www.paradestore.com

Glendale is the best place to get honor guard and color guard equipment. Start fundraising though, honor guard gear is not cheap.

[SJFedor]

I've got a few CAP HG ascotts with the patch affixed, that I'd be willing to part with relatively cheaply.

[IceNine]

Talk to your local VFW, Legion, POW/MIA Group, or what have you.

A lot of time's they will donate what you need in turn for you presenting the colors with them a few times a year.

My local VFW donated a few things a few years ago and in turn we march right behind them in the parades.

It shows the past hero's and future hero's.  Or so says the post commander

[Gunner C]

Last week I couldn't spell honor gaurd.  Now I is one. 

[JayT]

Last week I couldn't spell honor gaurd.  Now I is one. 

Beat me to it!

[notaNCO forever]

I know the hock shop sells some things.

[cadet zimmerman]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

[JayT]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

First dude, there's something called capitalization. Comma's are nice to.

Second. Why don't your cadets already have the short sleeve service uniform national issues?

Third. Try local Air Force JROTC units. Try local AFROTC units.

[cadet zimmerman]

Ok they do have the dress blues, but not honor guard unifoms i was told to get those.

[Eclipse]

Have any of your people been to HGA? 

If not, they shouldn't be wearing HG uniforms - color guard, maybe, but those are different.

[DC]

Have any of your people been to HGA? 

If not, they shouldn't be wearing HG uniforms - color guard, maybe, but those are different.

There is nothing that says you have to go to HGA to start an Honor Guard. Certainly it is a good idea, but by no means mandatory.

And Zimmerman, look up the Honor Guard uniform in CAPM 39-1. It is basically regular blues with the addition of the ascot, cord and heel taps. If getting the Service Coat (they are somewhat pricey) is a problem then you can just go with the regular service uniform. Again, look it up in 39-1.

[JayT]

Have any of your people been to HGA? 

If not, they shouldn't be wearing HG uniforms - color guard, maybe, but those are different.

That's incorrect. Reread 39-1.

[stillamarine]

Try Quartermaster. They are traditionally a supplier of law enforcement type gear but they sell flag harnesses, gloves, and a cheap knockoff of the springfield.

We bought those from there. It aint the best stuff but it's functional and great for the starting detail on a budget.

[SJFedor]

Have any of your people been to HGA? 

If not, they shouldn't be wearing HG uniforms - color guard, maybe, but those are different.

That's incorrect. Reread 39-1.

And CAPP 52-8.

[mikeylikey]

Have any of your people been to HGA? 

If not, they shouldn't be wearing HG uniforms - color guard, maybe, but those are different.

What?!?!  You have to go to HGA to be a member of the HG?

[Pylon]

What?!?!  You have to go to HGA to be a member of the HG?

No, you don't.  But I'm sure it helps to know what you're doing.

[mikeylikey]

What?!?!  You have to go to HGA to be a member of the HG?

No, you don't.  But I'm sure it helps to know what you're doing.

True....I just figured "great soemthing else to pay for before you can something in CAP". 

[lordmonar]

The problem is that 39-1 specifily says "color guards" are not to wear the Honor Guard uniform.

My question is......what is the difference between a color guard and the HG Colors Element?

[JC004]

The problem is that 39-1 specifily says "color guards" are not to wear the Honor Guard uniform.

My question is......what is the difference between a color guard and the HG Colors Element?

The drill, and an HG can't compete, for a couple things.  And, of course, the uniform.   

[CAP006]

The problem is that 39-1 specifily says "color guards" are not to wear the Honor Guard uniform.

My question is......what is the difference between a color guard and the HG Colors Element?

The drill, and an HG can't compete, for a couple things.  And, of course, the uniform.  

Other than the fact that HG looks better than the CG and are more diciplined than the CG.

I use to be the right guard for a few months befor messing up my leg very badly.  34 stitches and 13 staples.

I miss the HG alot.

[jimmydeanno]

Color Guards are not "ceremonial" in nature.  They march at quick time and perform all their actions quickly and with precision. CGs also don't have C/Officers on them.

Honor Guards tend to be slower and more "ceremonial" in their work.

Personally, I like CGs better.

[JayT]

The problem is that 39-1 specifily says "color guards" are not to wear the Honor Guard uniform.

My question is......what is the difference between a color guard and the HG Colors Element?

The drill, and an HG can't compete, for a couple things.  And, of course, the uniform.  

Other than the fact that HG looks better than the CG and are more diciplined than the CG.

Uh-huh.

[BillB]

Color Guards CAN have cadet officers. Only for Cadet Competition is there a restriction on cadet officers on color guards.  For non-competition, there is no restriction as to the composition of a color guard.

[lordmonar]

Other than the fact that HG looks better than the CG and are more diciplined than the CG.

I would check your "facts" before you make sweeping generalisations.

[afgeo4]

How about they're two different jobs?

Honor Guard performs special function duties and funeral duties.

Color Guard is in charge of the colors (flag) and duties that come with it (raising, lowering, presenting, and disposal).

The Honor Guard can perform flag presentation and color guard duties. The color guard cannot perform honor guard duties.

The uniform is basically the same. You have to purchase a service dress uniform (same as everyone else in your honor guard, no mix-matching old and new ones), a service cap with extra chin strap, a belt over the coat, ascot with patch and taps on feet. Otherwise, it's the regular uniform.

I highly encourage all of you to proof read what you post on the board. I see too many spelling/grammar mistakes in a thread about Honor Guard. That's not encouraging.

[MIKE]

Rather than locking, moving to the CP section.  Discussion has outgrown the Marketplace.

[lordmonar]

I was not asking about the difference between HG and CG.....HG does everthing from posting the flag to burial details, to inspecting the troops, to the DDR skits.

I was asking specifically about the CG and the HG colors element.

What is the difference?  Can I as a squadron CC (with wing cooridination) form my own Honor Guard Colors Element?  And if so.....how is that different from a CG....except the uniform?

[JC004]

I was not asking about the difference between HG and CG.....HG does everthing from posting the flag to burial details, to inspecting the troops, to the DDR skits.

I was asking specifically about the CG and the HG colors element.

What is the difference?  Can I as a squadron CC (with wing cooridination) form my own Honor Guard Colors Element?  And if so.....how is that different from a CG....except the uniform?

drill movements and competition eligibility are the ones I can think of

[Ozzy]

I was not asking about the difference between HG and CG.....HG does everthing from posting the flag to burial details, to inspecting the troops, to the DDR skits.

I was asking specifically about the CG and the HG colors element.

What is the difference?  Can I as a squadron CC (with wing cooridination) form my own Honor Guard Colors Element?  And if so.....how is that different from a CG....except the uniform?

Basically the difference between the CG and HGCE is the usual duties of either one.  Color Guard usually marches in parades, presents the colors at activities (football games, memorial events, etc.) and competes in the NCGC. Honor Guard Color element usually does the same, with the exception of competing, but includes wreath-laying, cordons, and some other 'events'.

Also there is a different in drill movements. While color guards may use left face to turn left, Honor Guard CE uses left turn which is basically a three step left face.

With the whole "Officers can not do Color Guard", that is basically true. Color Guards usually composed of "Two experienced Airmen as Rifle Bearers, and two NCOs as the colors" and as stated before, officer can not compete in the NCGC. Honor Guard on the otherhand, allows officers on the colors element.

Now that that is out of the way, I've recently received permission from my squadron commander to "try" to start an honor guard... that is to see which cadets are interested and to create a plan on how it might be run. With the fact my squadron already has a color guard, I'm planning to intergrate them into the colors element, but there is going to be two different colors element. One is going to be for standard color guard events. That is, basically they are going to do everything a color guard does and is going to be for Airmen and NCOs. The other is going to be an "Advance Colors Element" which is going to be for previous color guard members who have competed in the NCGC, which is going to be compromised by NCOs and Officers, and is going to learn the other part of the colors element such as wreath-laying and cordons.

Also unit honor guards do not have to have all four honor guard elements. The one I'm planning for my squadron is not going to have the funeral element until we have enough people in the other parts, nor a Performance/Demostration team until all of the cadets in both of the colors element and DDR element are trained properly.

[JayT]

Yeah, Ozzy.............dude..........Welcome to my world.

[afgeo4]

I was not asking about the difference between HG and CG.....HG does everthing from posting the flag to burial details, to inspecting the troops, to the DDR skits.

I was asking specifically about the CG and the HG colors element.

What is the difference?  Can I as a squadron CC (with wing cooridination) form my own Honor Guard Colors Element?  And if so.....how is that different from a CG....except the uniform?

Basically the difference between the CG and HGCE is the usual duties of either one.  Color Guard usually marches in parades, presents the colors at activities (football games, memorial events, etc.) and competes in the NCGC. Honor Guard Color element usually does the same, with the exception of competing, but includes wreath-laying, cordons, and some other 'events'.

Also there is a different in drill movements. While color guards may use left face to turn left, Honor Guard CE uses left turn which is basically a three step left face.

With the whole "Officers can not do Color Guard", that is basically true. Color Guards usually composed of "Two experienced Airmen as Rifle Bearers, and two NCOs as the colors" and as stated before, officer can not compete in the NCGC. Honor Guard on the otherhand, allows officers on the colors element.

Now that that is out of the way, I've recently received permission from my squadron commander to "try" to start an honor guard... that is to see which cadets are interested and to create a plan on how it might be run. With the fact my squadron already has a color guard, I'm planning to intergrate them into the colors element, but there is going to be two different colors element. One is going to be for standard color guard events. That is, basically they are going to do everything a color guard does and is going to be for Airmen and NCOs. The other is going to be an "Advance Colors Element" which is going to be for previous color guard members who have competed in the NCGC, which is going to be compromised by NCOs and Officers, and is going to learn the other part of the colors element such as wreath-laying and cordons.

Also unit honor guards do not have to have all four honor guard elements. The one I'm planning for my squadron is not going to have the funeral element until we have enough people in the other parts, nor a Performance/Demostration team until all of the cadets in both of the colors element and DDR element are trained properly.

Can you properly explain to me why you would create additional teams to participate in the same activities while ignoring teams that would bring you new, exciting and highly needed missions like funeral details?

There's a real shortage of honor guards in the LI and NYC area to perform military burials for veterans. A REAL shortage. In fact, there's a shortage across the whole country. That's one of the reasons why CAP even developed an Honor Guard program.

Why would you create an additional color guard team (one that doesn't even compete in events) when you could do something more... uhm... useful?

[jimmydeanno]

No offense, but I don't think it is appropriate for CAP cadets to provide honor guard details for veteran's funerals.  There may be a shortage of people to provide those services, but that doesn't make having cadets do it appropriate.

I remember my wife telling me that she had to present the flag to the next of kin when she was on the HG at Langley AFB.  She said it was the single hardest thing she's had to do on AD.

Funerals are sacred, our cadets shouldn't be put in that predicament - even if they would choose to be there. Also, can you imagine the thoughts of the next of kin and family..."Oh, we don't have anyone that can cover your husband's funeral, so we're going to send the 14 years olds from the CAP squadron down the street to do it."  How insulting is that?

[DC]

No offense, but I don't think it is appropriate for CAP cadets to provide honor guard details for veteran's funerals.  There may be a shortage of people to provide those services, but that doesn't make having cadets do it appropriate.

I remember my wife telling me that she had to present the flag to the next of kin when she was on the HG at Langley AFB.  She said it was the single hardest thing she's had to do on AD.

Funerals are sacred, our cadets shouldn't be put in that predicament - even if they would choose to be there. Also, can you imagine the thoughts of the next of kin and family..."Oh, we don't have anyone that can cover your husband's funeral, so we're going to send the 14 years olds from the CAP squadron down the street to do it."  How insulting is that?

I guess it depends, I have been part of two military funeral details, once working with an Army detail, the other time with the Navy. In both cases the deceased were former CAP members, and their families had requested us to help out.

I think it is a bit off for a CAP HG to do a funeral for someone with no connection to CAP though....

[afgeo4]

That's the main reason why NHQ even started the whole Honor Guard program!

What really sets the Honor Guard apart from other teams (drill and color guard) is the Funeral Detail. If you follow the regs and get people trained properly there's no reason why our cadets can't perform a proper military burial detail.

Think of the families. Not of the current Iraq/Afghanistan campaign casualties, but of WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Understand that though there are enough military Honor Guards to cover all OIF and OEF funerals in areas near military units, there aren't enough of these details to cover veterans of all wars and in all areas of the U.S. CAP has the ability to reduce that gap with our Honor Guard. Why not? Wouldn't it be nice for the family to see that the government, someone, is still thinking of their loved ones and cares enough to perform proper military honors at their funeral? Let's not forget about veterans of all wars. Especially on this Memorial Day.

[Eclipse]

That's the main reason why NHQ even started the whole Honor Guard program!

What really sets the Honor Guard apart from other teams (drill and color guard) is the Funeral Detail. If you follow the regs and get people trained properly there's no reason why our cadets can't perform a proper military burial detail.

I really think the priority in worrying here should be on veterans who aren't getting what they deserved, not how you think CAP is similar in honor guard to military honor guard. The regs say that's what CAP Honor Guard does.

Agreed - this, like the Chaplain program, is one of the places where CAP members can step in officially and participate in the place of or next to active duty folks.

The unfortunately reality right now is that there are a lot of military funerals going on right now, not only because of the war, but because of older vets passing away as well.

[jimmydeanno]

I don't think that funerals were the purpose of creating the HG program, I think it may have helped in the justification.

The more likely reason that it was created was because the HG is the "cooler" thing to do.

I think that military funerals could be done by anyone with the right training, but I don't think they should.  I don't think that presenting flags and carrying caskets is something we should expose our cadets to and I don't think that we should be "fill-ins" or "substitutes" for the real thing.

I know they are having a hard time getting HGs to veteran's funerals, but I don't think that CAP cadets should fill the gap.  Just my personal feelings on the matter.

[Flying Pig]

One observation...

Any military member killed on active duty, especially in combat isn't going to be buried by CAP unless for some reason they are requested to do so.  Older vets, I could see CAP stepping in, possibly.

Ive done  a military funeral as a Marine and they can be very physically demanding, both with the weight of the casket, heat, cold, etc.  Politics aside, we aren't short of honor guards because of the war going on, although there are a lot of older vets passing away now.

[0]

One observation...

Any military member killed on active duty, especially in combat isn't going to be buried by CAP unless for some reason they are requested to do so.  Older vets, I could see CAP stepping in, possibly.

Ive done  a military funeral as a Marine and they can be very physically demanding, both with the weight of the casket, heat, cold, etc.  Politics aside, we aren't short of honor guards because of the war going on, although there are a lot of older vets passing away now.

This is true, and personally I think every veteran should be given the honor of a military funeral.  They've given so much to our country it's the least we could do to honor that.

[jimmydeanno]

I agree with you all that every military member deserves a military funeral.  However, a military funeral is a funeral that is presided over by military customs, conducted by that veteran's/members brothers in arms.

A funeral that has the ceremony, but does not include the members of the service that they served is as much military as our organization is. 

I do believe that many family members would be insulted, if not verbally objective to having a "replacement" if they were expecting a "real" military funeral.  I think that having teenagers and pre-teens conducting these time honored traditions only adds insult to injury.

Of course, specific requests are a different story, but I really don't think we need or want to be in the business of providing funeral honors.

YMMV.

[Flying Pig]

^ I agree.  For a CAP member, sure.  For a vet who just has nobody, no family etc. and CAP is requested, I could see that.  But providing funeral service as a common practice, Im not for that.  At least where I am, many of the veterans organizations, VFW and American Legions provide a lot of the service.  I know they can be thin, or non existent in many places, but again, I don't think CAP needs to be in the business of providing military funerals.

There are MANY angles the military has.  The funeral I was in as a Marine was literally the 1st Sgt. walking through the barracks asking for volunteers to do a funeral detail a couple days later for a former Marine who had been killed in a car accident.  Several volunteered, and we spent the next day practicing for it.  6 casket bearers and a firing party.  We drove 2 hours to the location, and made it happen.  Where it can get dicy is when you far from a base.  When the military gets short is for vets.  For active duty members, there will be a military detail.

[stillamarine]

  At least where I am, many of the veterans organizations, VFW and American Legions provide a lot of the service. 

Years ago I went to a relatives funeral who had served 28 years in the Marine Corps. He lived in an area where there was no military presence.

The VFW provided a funeral detail and firing squad.

I believe the youngest member was about 75. There was no pop and snap, no sharpness, and it just plain looked bad. When the firing squad fired I thought one of them had a heart attack. They all wore varying stages of uniforms (looked like a CAP meeting ).

At the time I told my wife to never to allow that to happen at my funeral. I would be carried by a Marine Corps detail.  I have since changed that and told her that I want my pallbearers to be made up of half Marines and half Civil Air Patrol.


**disclaimer** This is in no way a dis on veterans. I am one and am proud of it, but I would rather be taken to my final resting spot in style, and not by someone who may be joining me in a few days. **disclaimer**

[afgeo4]

Not for nothing, but I'd like to find out how many military funerals Mr. Jimmydeano had attended.

[Timothy]

I commanded burial detail as an AFJROTC cadet at about 25+ funerals while in high school, at Riverside National Cemetery here in California. We were a recognized official cemetery team, and did 2-4 funerals a day, one day a month for about a year and a half. 

As mentioned previously, we did not provide the whole team... we worked as the pallbearing detail and trumpeter... sometimes a local veterans team provided the firing detail; sometimes there wasn't one. Coffin weight was not an issue; cemetery rules forbade anyone from carrying the casket... there was a chrome ceremonial "casket cart" that the team wheeled to the shelter.

When I graduated HS I put a team together at my new college ROTC unit and we worked as a firing detail attached to other pallbearer teams.

In both cases we never received anything but compliments and I was very honored to give that flag, and say those words. All this was back in 1997-98, and then 1998-2000, so i don't know if things have changed since then. We also weren't 14, we were a team comprised of mostly seniors and practiced constantly. I'll also note that these were "routine" burials and consisted mostly of deceased veterans of the Second, Korean, and Vietnam wars. We would never have done services for anyone in active or reserve duty.

Edit: Comments above aren't really meant to state either way about using cadets as HG, just my experience as one. I jumped at the chance and I will never forget it.

[jimmydeanno]

Not for nothing, but I'd like to find out how many military funerals Mr. Jimmydeano had attended.

7 more than I would have liked to have gone to.

One for my Stepfather (Navy - veteran).
One for a member of my squadron (Army - retired).
One for a close family friend (Army - retired).
One for a friend's grandfather (Air Force - retired).
One for my grandfather on my father's side (Army - veteran)
One for a family friend (Air Force -veteran)
One for a member of my current squadron (Coast Guard - retired).

As for my wife, she has gone to the 7 above and served on the HG for 48 of them.  She agrees with me about the no cadets thing.

[afgeo4]

Not for nothing, but I'd like to find out how many military funerals Mr. Jimmydeano had attended.

7 more than I would have liked to have gone to.

One for my Stepfather (Navy - veteran).
One for a member of my squadron (Army - retired).
One for a close family friend (Army - retired).
One for a friend's grandfather (Air Force - retired).
One for my grandfather on my father's side (Army - veteran)
One for a family friend (Air Force -veteran)
One for a member of my current squadron (Coast Guard - retired).

As for my wife, she has gone to the 7 above and served on the HG for 48 of them.  She agrees with me about the no cadets thing.

Well... I happen to live in a neighborhood that's rich with veterans and recently one of my neighbors passed away. He was a Korean War vet. Air Force. I spoke to his wife outside last week about it. She was upset because no one showed up to do the honors. The VA said they couldn't get a detail because there's a shortage.

I didn't know what to say to that. Maybe I'll have her write you and your wife asking for an explanation. You guys seem to have a better grasp of things, given your experience and all.

[jimmydeanno]

Somehow I knew it was going to be one of those responses.

But either way, I don't know as though she'd be happy with a group of 13 year olds doing either.  To each their own I guess.

Perhaps when I get "old and wise" my perception will change, but I doubt it.

[notaNCO forever]

 If they're on a Honor Guard they should be older then 13 and they'd need to be strong enough to carry a casket so I don't think it would look like a bunch of little kids were the ones doing it.

[afgeo4]

If they're on a Honor Guard they should be older then 13 and they'd need to be strong enough to carry a casket so I don't think it would look like a bunch of little kids were the ones doing it.

Agreed, I believe most of the cadets who'd be able to pull off Honor Guard details would be about 17 years old and above.

That's over the enlistment age for the military, so it wouldn't look odd at all. Most young men and women in the military Honor Guard are E-2 through E-5 anyway. Probably 18-22 years old.

[CAP006]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

First dude, there's something called capitalization. Comma's are nice to.

Second. Why don't your cadets already have the short sleeve service uniform national issues?

Third. Try local Air Force JROTC units. Try local AFROTC units.

Yeah?  If national issues them, why dont your cadets have them?  Thats just insane

[DC]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

First dude, there's something called capitalization. Comma's are nice to.

Second. Why don't your cadets already have the short sleeve service uniform national issues?

Third. Try local Air Force JROTC units. Try local AFROTC units.

Yeah?  If national issues them, why dont your cadets have them?  Thats just insane

You are aware of the Free Cadet Uniform program, that provides blues pants, a short sleeved shirt, a flight cap, and a belt to new cadets for free?

[afgeo4]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

First dude, there's something called capitalization. Comma's are nice to.

Second. Why don't your cadets already have the short sleeve service uniform national issues?

Third. Try local Air Force JROTC units. Try local AFROTC units.

Yeah?  If national issues them, why dont your cadets have them?  Thats just insane

You are aware of the Free Cadet Uniform program, that provides blues pants, a short sleeved shirt, a flight cap, and a belt to new cadets for free?

AAFES doesn't issue the rest of the Honor Guard uniform which would be a large expense. The cadet specified service coats as one of the requirements (and it is for honor guard). Other things like service caps, white gloves and ascots aren't issued either. Also, all uniform items must be of high quality, fit and condition to be on Honor Guard and all must be exactly the same. That is no mix/matching of old/new service coats, all same shade of pants (matching the coat), and all same version of low quarters (no mix/matching leather with corofam).

[DC]

thanks all this helps but all we really need is the uniforms them selfs like the shirts jackets and all that

First dude, there's something called capitalization. Comma's are nice to.

Second. Why don't your cadets already have the short sleeve service uniform national issues?

Third. Try local Air Force JROTC units. Try local AFROTC units.

Yeah?  If national issues them, why dont your cadets have them?  Thats just insane

You are aware of the Free Cadet Uniform program, that provides blues pants, a short sleeved shirt, a flight cap, and a belt to new cadets for free?

AAFES doesn't issue the rest of the Honor Guard uniform which would be a large expense. The cadet specified service coats as one of the requirements (and it is for honor guard). Other things like service caps, white gloves and ascots aren't issued either. Also, all uniform items must be of high quality, fit and condition to be on Honor Guard and all must be exactly the same. That is no mix/matching of old/new service coats, all same shade of pants (matching the coat), and all same version of low quarters (no mix/matching leather with corofam).

If you take a look at 39-1 there is an Honor Guard uniform option without the service coat, and the service cap can be had for $10 brand new on eBay. The equipment is going to be expensive no matter what, but the uniform can be put together pretty cheap if you look hard enough.