Is the Air Force doing away with weight standard requirements? If so, does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues? It seems that the Air Force Academy football defensive lineman Mosese Fifita weighs in at over 300 pounds and yet wears Air Force Academy Uniforms. I thought the weight standards were in place to prevent embarrassment to the Air Force of fat members in uniform. I guess not all fat members are fat members? I see a certain amount of hypocrisy and discrimination in this??? We have members that freely give of their time and talents and put their lives in danger who are not allowed to wear Air Force Blues, but an overweight athlete getting a free education can. Something is very, very wrong here. I am ashamed of the Air Force. They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
Glad you're enjoying the game.
I would not plan on looking at USAFA as a reflection of AF health/wellness requirements.
-In order to be a USAFA cadet, cadets must meet USAFA-specific weight standards
-If they exceed the standards, they will receive body-fat taping.
-If they fail that, they'll be placed on "weight management", a form of probation which requires them to lose (or gain, in some cases) weight
-Certain sports teams sort of get an exception from this process in season-but must pass an AF fitness test before commissioning, to include the waist measurement. Is it "fair"? Not sure, but USAFA football players are not the Air Force.
Practically speaking, once you've enlisted or graduated from your commissioning source, you're not going to be weighed regularly. The AF mostly uses the waist measurement and the fitness test to determine your fitness. Obviously, certain career fields (aircrew, spec ops, etc) are a little different.
Happy to provide any other insight as requested.
The AF has H/W standards for entry only. Once you are in then its the standard set by the PT test. If you fail the waist you do BMI if you fail BMI then there is an issue. And looking at the individual the OP I bet you most of his 300lbs is muscle. Huge difference between being 300lbs muscle and well 300lbs fat.
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
Is the Air Force doing away with weight standard requirements? If so, does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues? It seems that the Air Force Academy football defensive lineman Mosese Fifita weighs in at over 300 pounds and yet wears Air Force Academy Uniforms. I thought the weight standards were in place to prevent embarrassment to the Air Force of fat members in uniform. I guess not all fat members are fat members? I see a certain amount of hypocrisy and discrimination in this??? We have members that freely give of their time and talents and put their lives in danger who are not allowed to wear Air Force Blues, but an overweight athlete getting a free education can. Something is very, very wrong here. I am ashamed of the Air Force. They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
Wow. Disrespectful much? I bet you wouldn't say that with Mr. Fifita in the room. Service Academy athletes are allowed to weigh over but must make weight or tape by the time of their commissioning. In no way is this any reflection on the AF's feelings towards CAP. Personally I think it's great and hope it remains a thing as my son is hoping to go to USAFA when he graduates HS. He's a 6'3 230 14 year old defensive lineman now.
I'm ashamed of your attitude.
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PMI am ashamed of the Air Force. They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
It's not the Air Force's doing, that's a CAP thing in their obsession with affectation over mission-focused uniform choices.
I have to respectfully disagree with most posts on here. The individual is not all myscle. He has a gut, very visible in uniform. Mt son graduated from USAFA in 91. Tax dollars are being spent to create an officer out of any cadet attending the Academy. This one will not meet regulations now or ever. It is ridiculous for him to being taking the slot of someone that would meet regulations. The Academy is not there to play football. This is a wastep of our tax dollars and it is wrong for the Air Force and Academy to do this. So much for honor...
Then go complain to your congress person. And it is very judgemental of you to say he's fat. Every pic I have seen says muscle not fat. At the end of the day if he can't meet standards he will be out.
Different rules for AF members and CAP members at the end of the day its not on you to determine if he is fit for service or whether or not he will ever meet standards.
Judgmental you say? How about the thousands that were less than honorably discharged due to the fat boy program in the Air Force? There is hypocrisy in this situation. Explain it to the fatties not allowed to wear the Air Force blues. Or better yet, get a uniform that everyone in CAP can wear so all will be uniform.
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 02:32:24 AM
I have to respectfully disagree with most posts on here. The individual is not all myscle. He has a gut, very visible in uniform. Mt son graduated from USAA in 91. Tax dollars are being spent to create an officer out of any cadet attending the Academy. This one will not meet regulations now or ever. It is ridiculous for him to being taking the slot of someone that would meet regulations. The Academy is not there to play football. This is a wastep of our tax dollars and it is wrong for the Air Force and Academy to do this. So much for honor...
If your son really did graduate from USAA (although I'm not entirely sure how you graduate from a bank), I'm not sure how you're surprised that AF football players are usually a little bigger than the rest of the cadet wing. I'm also not sure how you're so sure he will NEVER meet weight standards, but, surprisingly, someone else is in charge of making that judgment.
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
... I guess not all fat members are fat members? ...
I would slightly correct your question to read "not all OVERWEIGHT members are fat members".
There are many DoD members who are over the anthropometric height/weight tables. It isn't an unusual thing for members to be assessed against allowable body fat and fitness standards in such instances. I participated in a mishap investigation once where the pilot (a former academy wrestler) inadvertently knocked the gear handle with his (massive!) knee during ACM, causing damage. Huge? Heck yes. Fat? Probably a very low percentage (I forget honestly, but the guy was very fit). In my career I've measured many very large and small pilots and maintainers (working with ASC/EN, AFRL, NAWC-AD, and AMRDEC) and I have to tell you, the determination of fitness and suitability for job assignments takes a heck of a lot more than looking at some pics/TV footage.
Disclosure: I earned my "Spam" call sign one early morning because I was told by an instructor that I fit the forward cockpit like "Spam in a can - meat wall to wall". Sigh... I've had the fun of having to do the tape test (passed , or I used to at least). :P
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
... They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
"They" (the Air Force) continue to graciously allow CAP members to wear their USAF style uniforms, given that we (CAP) restrict their wear to members meeting the first tier review (height/weight tables, plus an allowance). CAP doesn't have the resources to do individual assessments/body fat tests - but don't put that on USAF. If CAP members want to wear military style, nothing other than their own height/weight is preventing that.
AirAux, you should know that
you're not considered a second class member, for wearing a corporate uniform. If you feel butt hurt or triggered over this, that's on you (not USAF). I hung up the USAF style myself a while back, until I get in shape and lose the weight. If I don't, no big deal - its CLOTHING - and I have many other options.
Its only the members who
continue to wear USAF style in defiance of the regs that I consider not second class, but "at risk" members, whom I will continue to counsel IAW the regs. The inability to comply with (or the flouting of) CAP uniform regs is to my mind a leading indicator of risk in other areas of CAP. So, if anyone gets extra scrutiny and perhaps remedial attention, its them. (See the "five hazardous attitudes" FAA briefs).
V/r
Spam
I'm just curious about what his 1.5 mile time is.
QuoteHow about the thousands that were less than honorably discharged due to the fat boy program in the Air Force?
Got proof of that? Did you talk to all of them? If you so desperately want to wear the AF style then do the work to wear it. Or maybe you are alresdy (potentially against regs) and tjis is just a way for you to try and justify it.
Yes, my brother for one after 12 years of active service. Further, I have health conditions that prevent me from meeting weight standards and yes, there are such things. Further, I have 37 years of service with the Civil Air Patrol. My Dad served 23 years in the Air Force and my son served after graduation from USAFA. I served in the Army. I believe we needed a unifying uniform for all to wear in CAP. You have no right to deny the feelings of someone not allowed to wear the uniform of our Parent service. If you saw the 300+ pound lineman on TV, you would know it is not all muscle... unless he has really strong gluteal muscles...
here ya go:
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/health/us-soldiers-turn-to-diet-pills-liposuction-to-meet-weight-standards-ncxdc-120810
US soldiers are going to extremes -- taking diet pills and laxatives, even starving themselves and getting liposuction -- in order to meet the military's weight standards, the Army Times reported Monday.
"Liposuction saved my career -- laxatives and starvation before an [Army Physical Fitness Test] sustains my career," an anonymous soldier told the weekly paper. "I for one can attest that soldiers are using liposuction, laxatives and starvation to meet height and weight standards. I did, do and still do."
More than a third of uniformed men and women do not meet the Army's weight standards, according to a 2009 military fitness report, and those officers are subjected to dreaded tape measurements to determine body fat percentage.
If soldiers exceed the body fat limits, they cannot earn leadership roles or promotions, the paper said. Officers can even lose their jobs if they do not shed a significant amount weight in two months -- a very real threat, considering about 24,000 soldiers were discharged between 1992 and 2007 for failure to meet weight standards, according to a report published in Military Medicine.
"I have been on a roller coaster of gains and losses for half my military career," one lieutenant colonel told the Army Times. "I have considered lipo, and I have certainly starved myself, dieted on only bread and water, or other similar extreme diets to make weight or tape ... And it is no secret to any leader in the military what some soldiers will do to conform to standards that have been set."
Another soldier based at Fort Riley in Kansas told the paper she recently saw an advertisement for liposuction at the post gym. The Army Times also found ads for the cosmetic procedure in base newspapers at Fort Hood, Tex., Fort Benning, Ga., and Fort Campbell, Ky.
Meanwhile, military leaders and doctors continued to warn against the risks of unhealthy weight loss methods.
"I don't think we have a clear understanding how widespread this problem is," Col. George Dilly, Medical Command's chief dietitian, told the paper, bemoaning the lack of empirical data about extreme dieting and cosmetic surgery among soldiers.
"Soldiers are hiding the fact they are doing this because they don't want the problem exposed," he added.
"We want soldiers to look right," Dr. Thomas Williams, a retired colonel who leads the Army Physical Fitness Research Institute, told the Army Times. "But they also need to feel right and perform right, and you can't get that from a pill or a procedure."
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
... does that mean CAP fatties can wear the Air Force Blues?
... allowed to wear Air Force Blues...
There seems to be a widespread myth that the weight standards apply only to USAF-style dress uniforms (i.e., Blues). In fact the standards apply to
all USAF-style uniforms, including BDUs, ABUs and flight suits.
Aux first off. I have not denied your feelings one iota. Second a handful that you can claim is not thousands. Third if you're that tender of a snowflake maybe CAP is no longer for you.. And there is a uniform all CAP SMs can wear it's the corp.
And the Army Times is hardly a credible or news worthy reference.
And I don't question whether a 300lb lineman is muscle or fat because there is np relevance. In this case the AFA took him and are keeping so he is meeting the standard otherwise he wouldn't be there. Grow up and get over yourself...
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 08, 2017, 02:30:20 PM
Aux first off. I have not denied your feelings one iota. Second a handful that you can claim is not thousands. Third if you're that tender of a snowflake maybe CAP is no longer for you.. And there is a uniform all CAP SMs can wear it's the corp.
And the Army Times is hardly a credible or news worthy reference.
And I don't question whether a 300lb lineman is muscle or fat because there is np relevance. In this case the AFA took him and are keeping so he is meeting the standard otherwise he wouldn't be there. Grow up and get over yourself...
Reading some articles on the young man he passed all the PFA requirements that every other cadet had to pass. The kid's a beast and I wish him the best.
Odd, I'm still questioning where OP's issue is...
See, I did a quick count: 37 players on the AF team clock in at over 250 lbs.
Are they unfit? Are they rotund? Doubtful.
Most are of the 6' 4" and higher variety. They're houses.
I'm guessing, but I could be wrong, that a football player can pass the PT test to remain in the AF.
And anybody who has been in the military more than about 4 minutes knows there is a waiver for everything. I suspect that a height/weight waiver is a pre-filled out form for the football team at USAFA.
Otherwise, they'd be totally noncompetitive in their division.
And at that point, why have a football team?
Its not like their standards have *anything* to do with ours, or even the Air Force's. Example: Have to you seen the USAFA cadet uniforms? They're still wearing the old four-pocket service coats, in a shade that's not even the same as the rest of the Air Force.
So I guess, my point is: if you have a beef with the Air Force Academy football team's height and weight standards, why don't you take it up with the Air Force Academy? And let us know what they say.
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
Yes, my brother for one after 12 years of active service.
Then that's a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions - usually terms are "failure to meet standards" and he could reenlist/reactivate should he meet conditions and reenlist/petition successfully. That's a world of difference from a Dishonorable/Bad Conduct Discharge. Lets not mix terms here or catastrophize.
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
Further, I have health conditions that prevent me from meeting weight standards and yes, there are such things.
Me too, brother, me too. In my case, I had surgery and have been under doctors orders to NOT work out, which bugs me. I had one of our subordinate Group/CCs tell me he was surprised to hear I was >300 lbs as I divulged during our recent Commanders Call (where I publicly weighed-in, stated my weight, I urged our unit/CCs to hold their people to this reg, as well as all the others). Thing is - we need to stop using excuses, and comply. When we go down the "excuses" road, we end up with people using that mind set in ways that compromise other regs, bend aircraft and break people, eventually.
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
You have no right to deny the feelings of someone not allowed to wear the uniform of our Parent service.
Actually, we as Americans do have the First Amendment right to free speech to make statements about your feelings, just as you have the right to express them.
As CAP officers, we are required to enforce the existing CAP regs, as written and amended. You are invited to go through channels to try to change them if you wish.
As CAP members, we need to employ the core value of respect. That goes both ways: we can express our feelings about each other but should refrain from the suppressive statements (e.g. "you have no right") and the targeted insults. Some of your barbs are aimed at CAP, some at CAP members, etc. where none of us have any bearing on USAFA standards. I think you might want to calm down and revisit some of your statements.
R/s,
Spam
(6 foot 4 inches and built not like a house any more - more like an office block) :-\
So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform? If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?
Oh, and since when is 24,000 discharged a handful? That is almost half of what we lost in Nam. I am sure the Army Times would differ with your opinion of their reporting.
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 09:23:06 PM
So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform? If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?
Oh, and since when is 24,000 discharged a handful? That is almost half of what we lost in Nam. I am sure the Army Times would differ with your opinion of their reporting.
Provide a valid source for your assertion of 24K besides something that is in no way affiliated with the DoD. and the Army Times and you can disagree with me all day long but they nor any of the times publications are hardly noteworthy or worthwhile resources for information. Quit crying about not be able to wear something and grow up, the only one making you second class is you.
1. Its not in fact happening as you say (the disdain you subjectively feel).
I am both fat and fuzzy and I'm helping to run a Wing.
My boss is neither fat nor fuzzy and she alternates corporate and USAF style (she, like me, publicly weighed in at Commanders Call).
We held our last Commanders Call with a uniform of the day as Corporate. Fifty or so commanders and deputies, all in corporate... a sea of Georgia CAP officers in enough gray to have made Joe Johnston misty eyed. The rationale though was not to push one uniform over another... it was to avoid embarrassing members ("Respect" value) as we pushed the "reset" button on this weight/USAF style issue.
2. Why do they all not obey your call for conformity?
If you assert that "uniform" means "everyone wears the same, all the time", I'd reply that you need to get off the costume issue, and get on board with the mission. From revolutionary war days to today, the services have worn the right outfit for the mission. Is your mission to "feel good about yourself", or to fly and serve?
It sounds like you're demanding that members abandon USAF style to obey "inclusiveness" and avoid "offense"... I'm wondering how you square these leftist notions of "inclusiveness" being a mandate to all be the same with the mantra of diversity which values individual differences? Diversity is something which I'm actually all behind: aren't you supportive of members who CAN wear USAF style? Or, are you aware that you're coming across as petulantly demanding "well if I can't wear it, NO ONE SHOULD"?
V/r
Spam
Take the time that folks talk, debate, and argue over uniform issues ... both here, at meetings, SAREXs, etc. etc. ... and devote that time to missions and outreach ....
As folks like me have said before .... that person stuck in a crashed airplane doesn't give a #@&%# what the folks looking for him are wearing.
I could fly missions very well with my gut hanging over cut-off jeans, a Jimmy Buffett t-shirt and barefoot. LOL
Yes ... I jest a little. But really .... me thinks many folks have their purdy starched uniform way too high on the priority list. To hear some talk, maybe its the real reason some are here at all. (?)
Amen, etodd.
That's the core issue. There is a huge segment that cares mainly about how CAP validates them - uniforms that bring back the glory days of a slimmer youth, or salutes from cadets and "subordinates" for those who never were able to serve. Its like the fantasy of Comic-Con, in USAF blue costumes, for some.
Then, I believe, those fantasy dress up elements correlate to some extent with hazardous attitudes that become a mission impediment, when people ignore/fudge aircraft weight and balance (if you can't be honest with your own weight?), when people skip the DAILY required Form 73 vehicle inspections, when people ignore flight duty day restrictions, etc. Having seen a fatality or two from those attitudes (on actual missions - one FLWG, one MDWG) I see the need to hold the line. This is a standards issue.
Its an impediment for guys and girls that just want to fly and serve, and its a poor example for the cadets watching us, and we've got to get over it.
Spam
Well said Spam and etodd. As we all know, the only required 'uniform' for SM's is the white/grey combo... AF blues are optional and only for those that can wear it. Nobody is being excluded here, in fact if you do not have the white/grey combo, you are out of uniform and non-compliant. This Corporate 'uniform' better represents our status as AF Aux... I can but do not wear AF blues because I am not AF and do not need to look like it. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Quote from: CAP9907 on October 09, 2017, 03:18:40 AM
Well said Spam and etodd. As we all know, the only required 'uniform' for SM's is the white/grey combo... AF blues are optional and only for those that can wear it. Nobody is being excluded here, in fact if you do not have the white/grey combo, you are out of uniform and non-compliant. This Corporate 'uniform' better represents our status as AF Aux... I can but do not wear AF blues because I am not AF and do not need to look like it. Just my opinion, YMMV.
Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
Don't worry, I'm sure that if this is an issue (hint: it isn't) the cadre at USAFA are well equipped to handle it.
I'm sure there are plenty of other things closer to your lane for you to spend your time worrying about.
Here's an article that interviews the football coaches of Army, Navy and Air Force in which they talk about how the players and coaches deal with the height and weight requirements.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/21/5736040/college-football-military-service-academies
This is Capt Ben Garland, USAF, currently serving with the Colorado Air National Guard Public Affairs office. He played 4 years of football with the Falcons of the USAFA. His senior year roster shows him as 6'5'', 275 lbs.
(http://a1.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2017%2F0805%2Fr240381_1112x626_16%2D9.jpg&w=570)
This is Capt Ben Garland, USAF, currently playing football as a guard with the Falcons of Spam and Joe's land. The roster shows him as 6'5" 308 lbs.
(http://www.tsn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.811590.1500834156!/fileimage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/ben-garland.jpg)
This interview explains how Capt Garland balances the Guard and football.
http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/243189/ben-garland-a-captain-of-a-different-stripe-for-falcons
Mike
Why should CAP members all be in the same uniform when not even the USAF wants to do that themselves? I work at HQ ACC and see ABU, FDU, OCP, blues, etc. every day.
been on both sides of the height/weight issue. Active Duty Army: At 5'9" my weight averaged 150. The height/weight tables allowed my weight to go up to 186lb. However at 160 I began to feel bloated and cut back to my "comfortable" weight. PT test results were typically in the 260-275 range. Since retirement my weight has gone to 175, and my 4 mile run days are a thing of the past.
On the other hand, my daughters husband was Air Force: (Son of an Army Aviator, Daughter of an Army Tanker, they marry he joins the Air Force to become a boat mechanic). Ken was a good guy and sharp at his job, hit all the promotion points and made it to E5 pretty quickly. But he had problems pushing himself away from the table. His Commander worked with him and gave him every chance, my daughter tried healthy cooking, everything fresh nothing canned or processed), but could not stop him from his pizza stops on the way home, or his stash of candy bars, etc. He finally wound up with a Bar to Reenlistment and left the Air Force with an Honorable Discharge.
Now why on earth would someone feel like a second class citizen by wearing the grey-white 'uniform'? I'm sorry, but if I heard that I would have to respond with an appropriate comment along the lines of "suck it up cupcake" for here is someone that has not yet learned it's the person that makes the uniform, not the other way around.
Quote from: Spam on October 08, 2017, 06:53:55 AM
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
... I guess not all fat members are fat members? ...
I would slightly correct your question to read "not all OVERWEIGHT members are fat members".
There are many DoD members who are over the anthropometric height/weight tables. It isn't an unusual thing for members to be assessed against allowable body fat and fitness standards in such instances. I participated in a mishap investigation once where the pilot (a former academy wrestler) inadvertently knocked the gear handle with his (massive!) knee during ACM, causing damage. Huge? Heck yes. Fat? Probably a very low percentage (I forget honestly, but the guy was very fit). In my career I've measured many very large and small pilots and maintainers (working with ASC/EN, AFRL, NAWC-AD, and AMRDEC) and I have to tell you, the determination of fitness and suitability for job assignments takes a heck of a lot more than looking at some pics/TV footage.
Disclosure: I earned my "Spam" call sign one early morning because I was told by an instructor that I fit the forward cockpit like "Spam in a can - meat wall to wall". Sigh... I've had the fun of having to do the tape test (passed , or I used to at least). [emoji14]
Quote from: AirAux on October 07, 2017, 08:56:05 PM
... They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.
"They" (the Air Force) continue to graciously allow CAP members to wear their USAF style uniforms, given that we (CAP) restrict their wear to members meeting the first tier review (height/weight tables, plus an allowance). CAP doesn't have the resources to do individual assessments/body fat tests - but don't put that on USAF. If CAP members want to wear military style, nothing other than their own height/weight is preventing that.
AirAux, you should know that you're not considered a second class member, for wearing a corporate uniform. If you feel butt hurt or triggered over this, that's on you (not USAF). I hung up the USAF style myself a while back, until I get in shape and lose the weight. If I don't, no big deal - its CLOTHING - and I have many other options.
Its only the members who continue to wear USAF style in defiance of the regs that I consider not second class, but "at risk" members, whom I will continue to counsel IAW the regs. The inability to comply with (or the flouting of) CAP uniform regs is to my mind a leading indicator of risk in other areas of CAP. So, if anyone gets extra scrutiny and perhaps remedial attention, its them. (See the "five hazardous attitudes" FAA briefs).
V/r
Spam
Thank you Spam for your point of view. I have only been in CAP for 40 years as well as time served in the USAF, during this time I have witnessed "civilians" commenting on the looks of CAP members in uniform. Many of these comments came from folks not realizing that what they saw were not active AF personnel but CAP members. These comments were both positive as well as negative. How we as CAP members stand up to the h/w standards can have a BIG reflection on the USAF.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: AirAux on October 08, 2017, 09:23:06 PM
So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform? If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?
I can only speak for the corners of CAP where I have lived, but... they do. I've seen plenty of CAP members who
could wear the USAF uniform wearing something else instead (golf shirt, aviator, etc.) Including our recently former CAP/CC, Maj Gen Vazquez.
If this were 20 years ago, I would agree with you that corporate uniforms == second-class uniforms. But that simply isn't the case anymore in a lot of areas of CAP. The culture has changed, and continues to change. How you wear your uniform and how you perform your job are much more important than which uniform you're wearing.
Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2017, 03:25:25 AM
Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'. But I've never been required to 'wear it'. So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'. LOL
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Great - so why not wear it to meetings?
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Youre eating and drinking during CAP flying missions? Jeeez how long are those flights anyway
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 04:56:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2017, 03:25:25 AM
Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'. But I've never been required to 'wear it'. So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'. LOL
YMMV but at least once a year there is some event that requires the blues or corporate equivalent. Additionally, when I was a commander I encouraged my seniors to wear the uniform we were requiring of the cadets. So on promotion/award night I expected to see either blues or the corporate equivalent.
Quote from: vorteks on October 09, 2017, 06:22:11 PM
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Youre eating and drinking during CAP flying missions? Jeeez how long are those flights anyway
Well if you're on a SAREX and you're cleared for your sortie just before the lunch arrives, you have to take your own with you, as there will be no food left when you return.
Something like this always works. LOL
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3306717502_cca1e9efca.jpg)
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Must be nice to be able to fly in the Golf Shirt combo. In Pacific Region the only authorized uniform for powered flight is the Flight Suit unless you're flying a CD mission and the customer requests no uniforms.
Quote from: PHall on October 10, 2017, 01:03:32 AM
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:14:09 PM
If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
Must be nice to be able to fly in the Golf Shirt combo. In Pacific Region the only authorized uniform for powered flight is the Flight Suit unless you're flying a CD mission and the customer requests no uniforms.
Is that in a written supplement somewhere for PCR? If it is, it's not being enforced region wide.
Quote from: Vegas1972 on October 10, 2017, 02:38:07 AM
Is that in a written supplement somewhere for PCR? If it is, it's not being enforced region wide.
Well, there does not appear to be a region supplement to that effect.
I thought they dropped that nonsense a few years ago.
From what I have personally seen in CAWG, at least for real and exercise missions, no flight suit = no fly.
And my personal preference is to wear the Nomex Bag. But I think almost 30 years of military flying may have biased me just a little bit.
Even when I'm just flying in a Cessna for fun you will most most likely find me in all cotton (Levi's and T-Shirt).
I've seen the results of a flash fire on polyester. I don't need to be shrink wrapped!
Quote from: Eclipse on October 09, 2017, 05:33:06 PM
Great - so why not wear it to meetings?
Same reasons as when flying. It's more comfortable, easier to maintain, nothing on it to get "wrong" and get yelled at for, easier to keep clean than a white shirt, and at least around here you won't stick out in a crowd.
So the whole "clothes make the man", "model the behavior you expect", "dressing for the occasion, vs. occasionally dressing",
that's off now?
One of the intentions of the uniform is to require the attention to detail that the accoutrements dictate, and
to put members in the mindset that CAP is supposed to be "more" then your normal workday.
If you can't read 39-1, and you're so gunshy about getting help, I don't know what that says, but it says something.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 05:06:22 AM
So the whole "clothes make the man", "model the behavior you expect", "dressing for the occasion, vs. occasionally dressing",
that's off now?
One of the intentions of the uniform is to require the attention to detail that the accoutrements dictate, and
to put members in the mindset that CAP is supposed to be "more" then your normal workday.
If you can't read 39-1, and you're so gunshy about getting help, I don't know what that says, but it says something.
Unfortunately too many Senior Members view the polo combination as a uniform for all occasions when it fact it is classified as a working uniform just like the BDU/BBDU/ABU.
Quote from: Alaric on October 09, 2017, 06:23:24 PM
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 04:56:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2017, 03:25:25 AM
Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'. But I've never been required to 'wear it'. So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'. LOL
YMMV but at least once a year there is some event that requires the blues or corporate equivalent. Additionally, when I was a commander I encouraged my seniors to wear the uniform we were requiring of the cadets. So on promotion/award night I expected to see either blues or the corporate equivalent.
The "corporate equivalent" to blues is hardly equivalent when it does not include a cap, coat or even the same color trousers from
One person to another.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on October 10, 2017, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Alaric on October 09, 2017, 06:23:24 PM
Quote from: etodd on October 09, 2017, 04:56:11 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 09, 2017, 03:25:25 AM
Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'. But I've never been required to 'wear it'. So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'. LOL
YMMV but at least once a year there is some event that requires the blues or corporate equivalent. Additionally, when I was a commander I encouraged my seniors to wear the uniform we were requiring of the cadets. So on promotion/award night I expected to see either blues or the corporate equivalent.
The "corporate equivalent" to blues is hardly equivalent when it does not include a cap, coat or even the same color trousers from
One person to another.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is the uniform we have that is approved for wear, for purposes of CAP it is considered equivalent. You can always submit your ideas for changing it through the appropriate changes :)
Why does it has to have a cap or hat to be equivalent? The notion it has to have a hat or cap is in my opinion silly.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 10, 2017, 07:37:10 PM
Why does it has to have a cap or hat to be equivalent? The notion it has to have a hat or cap is in my opinion silly.
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package - you'll have to ask the Romans why.
In order for a uniform combination to be "equal", it has to allow for the same wear and similar appearance of everyone,
which includes decorations, badges, etc.
Anything else is "different", and in an organization that is extremely focused on bling, one can certainly make the
argument that the current Real-Estate Agent / Olympic Judge jacket is "less' when viewed alongside peers or
worse subordinates.
That doesn't even bring into the arguments the nonsense people try to introduce such as "only salute when wearing a hat",
"officers don't wear ribbons on their shirts", etc., etc.
It very simple, it's either equal or it isn't, and one only need look at the far too many in the leadership, wing, region, and national,
that do not abide by the wear regs to know whether it's "important".
Quote from: BKhun on October 07, 2017, 09:04:55 PM
Glad you're enjoying the game.
I would not plan on looking at USAFA as a reflection of AF health/wellness requirements.
-In order to be a USAFA cadet, cadets must meet USAFA-specific weight standards
-If they exceed the standards, they will receive body-fat taping.
-If they fail that, they'll be placed on "weight management", a form of probation which requires them to lose (or gain, in some cases) weight
-Certain sports teams sort of get an exception from this process in season-but must pass an AF fitness test before commissioning, to include the waist measurement. Is it "fair"? Not sure, but USAFA football players are not the Air Force.
Practically speaking, once you've enlisted or graduated from your commissioning source, you're not going to be weighed regularly. The AF mostly uses the waist measurement and the fitness test to determine your fitness. Obviously, certain career fields (aircrew, spec ops, etc) are a little different.
Happy to provide any other insight as requested.
My last job on active duty I worked with an officer who was a USAFA grad and football lineman, He had a limited amount of time after graduation to get into Active Duty weight and fitness standards. I don't remember the time, but as the unit fitness monitor I know he did struggle, I would say he had a harder road than someone who did not play major college football while attending a service academy.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 08:32:23 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 10, 2017, 07:37:10 PM
Why does it has to have a cap or hat to be equivalent? The notion it has to have a hat or cap is in my opinion silly.
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package - you'll have to ask the Romans why.
In order for a uniform combination to be "equal", it has to allow for the same wear and similar appearance of everyone,
which includes decorations, badges, etc.
Anything else is "different", and in an organization that is extremely focused on bling, one can certainly make the
argument that the current Real-Estate Agent / Olympic Judge jacket is "less' when viewed alongside peers or
worse subordinates.
That doesn't even bring into the arguments the nonsense people try to introduce such as "only salute when wearing a hat",
"officers don't wear ribbons on their shirts", etc., etc.
It very simple, it's either equal or it isn't, and one only need look at the far too many in the leadership, wing, region, and national,
that do not abide by the wear regs to know whether it's "important".
Well, that kinda covers it for me. I'm a civilian volunteer helping out an organization that I like. I'm not there to 'be military'. Its all fine and dandy for those who want that. But we are an organization of thousands of civilians who have many varied views on everything. A mixed bag of individuals trying to do 'their thing', while helping the cause.
That looks great on a T-Shirt, but that's not how a uniformed organization works, and
is essentially the reason CAP is in the situation it is in regards to a lot of issues.
Few and far between would be any other organizations or similar scope and mission
that would allow it's members to decide what clothing is appropriate in a given situation,
even private employment.
If only there was a CSU available. Wait, never mind.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 09:44:36 PM
Few and far between would be any other organizations or similar scope and mission
that would allow it's members to decide what clothing is appropriate in a given situation,
even private employment.
Huh? Members don't decide. I've always worn an approved UOD. My preferred one just always happens to be on the list.
This isn't just specific to you. Members "decide" all the time, and many just "do their own thing".
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
This isn't just specific to you. Members "decide" all the time, and many just "do their own thing".
Are they turned around at the door and sent home to change or not come back? If not, the problem is on a higher level.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 05:06:22 AM
So the whole "clothes make the man", "model the behavior you expect", "dressing for the occasion, vs. occasionally dressing",
that's off now?
I don't think that's "off now" and so far wearing an approved uniform that consists of a polo shirt and grey pants has been appropriate for every occasion I've worn it. Meetings, training, & missions. A few of them they were specified as
the UOD.
When a police chief walks into an EOC wearing a polo shirt with her department logo on it, she's just as respected as when she wears the fancy blue shirt with the bling on it. I can't tell you how many business meetings I've been to wearing a polo shirt, which is all your standard squadron meeting night is (only perhaps slightly more boring).
You asked why someone would just stick to wearing the polo shirt for meetings and the expressed opinions are reasonable. Just because you like dressing up doesn't mean everyone likes dressing up. Don't express your personal preferences as law.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 05:06:22 AMIf you can't read 39-1, and you're so gunshy about getting help, I don't know what that says, but it says something.
It certainly does, but I doubt you and I would agree on specifically what it says (especially since I had to read 39-1 to find out about the polo shirt).
The start of this discussion involved service academy athletes and height-weight standards. There is a great book on this topic called the civil war https://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-College-Footballs-Rivalry/dp/0316278246/ (https://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-College-Footballs-Rivalry/dp/0316278246/) the book tracks a year with both the army and navy football teams. They spend a significant amount of time following offensive and defensive linemen who have to maintain a standard when they enter, then they need to bulk up for their team and then they have to cut weight at the end of their sports career. It is a very good read.
QuoteFrom Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package
This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...
QuoteAll formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...
This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.
"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."
It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.
"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."
We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."
Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 11, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...
No?
Why? Explain.
QuoteQuote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 11, 2017, 06:15:24 PM
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...
This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.
"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."
It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.
"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."
We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."
Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."
Maybe if members would restrain themselves and cease using the term "fatty/fatties" the conversation could be more productive. I am overweight and I don't need to be reminded of it by anyone on this board. Goes to Core Values and Respect.
QuoteQuote from: PA Guy on October 11, 2017, 06:38:13 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 11, 2017, 06:15:24 PM
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package...
This is the same attitude that generates on some members the "I cannot wear the military uniform, therefore I am a second-class member" and is used by them to state there are two different types of members.
"Some members wear the Blues. It is a formal military uniform. I cannot wear it, and have to wear the Corporates. But the CU does not have a hat. Therefore the Greys/Corporates =/= Blues! Therefore I am =/= to other members."
It is also the same reason why some refuse to wear Corporates, even when buttons are popping off their uniforms.
"I want to be seen as = to other members. Therefore I will wear AF Blues always, no matter what the regs say."
We need to stop saying "To make Corporates = AF Blues, we need to wear hats and bling."
Then maybe, those fatties will start saying "Yes, AF Blues are = to corporates, therefore I will not wear AF Blues."
Maybe if members would restrain themselves and cease using the term "fatty/fatties" the conversation could be more productive. I am overweight and I don't need to be reminded of it by anyone on this board. Goes to Core Values and Respect.
As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth. I am both fat and fuzzy
Quote from: Alaric on October 11, 2017, 07:08:12 PM
As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth. I am both fat and fuzzy
"I can use that word, but you [darn] sure can't."
Quote from: NIN on October 11, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Alaric on October 11, 2017, 07:08:12 PM
As a member of the corporate uniform brigade myself I have no problem with the term fatty, its the truth. I am both fat and fuzzy
"I can use that word, but you [darn] sure can't."
Don't care who uses the word
Quote from: etodd on October 10, 2017, 11:02:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 10, 2017, 10:22:06 PM
This isn't just specific to you. Members "decide" all the time, and many just "do their own thing".
Are they turned around at the door and sent home to change or not come back? If not, the problem is on a higher level.
etodd, I have indeed turned away members at the door of activities when they've attempted to wear USAF style and haven't been compliant with ht/weight, grooming, or both, or if they've shown up in USAF style without adequate approved outerwear for the weather. I have never once done so for members who wear corporates of any sort, nor for members who show up in civilian clothing, although it might restrict their participation roles. Compliance with the USAF style requirements is the key element, not USAF style/corporates.
The higher level issue is that we are entrusted to self-police in adhering to 39-1 and we often fail to do so, risking the trust placed in us to allow the wear of USAF-style by a federally chartered nonprofit
civilian organization. All assertions to the contrary, we are a civilian organization outside of the DoD (i.e. legally non military) which performs taskings defined in a Cooperative Agreement for the USAF customer as provided by law.
http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleD/part3/chapter909&edition=prelim (http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleD/part3/chapter909&edition=prelim)
9441. Status as federally chartered corporation; purposes
(a) Status.—(1) The Civil Air Patrol is a nonprofit corporation that is federally chartered under section 40301 of title 36.
(2) Except as provided in section 9442(b)(2) of this title, the Civil Air Patrol is not an instrumentality of the Federal Government for any purpose.
and:
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afpd10-27/afpd10-27.pdf (http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afpd10-27/afpd10-27.pdf)
So, these fantasies that corporate uniforms require headgear, that CAP is a military organization, etc. are without basis, and are themselves part of the problem, especially when their proponents abandon consistency and insist that we allow civilian gear to be mixed with USAF style.
R/s
Spam
Military-like.
We are not subject to the UCMJ.
We are not subject to the same punishment that USAF members are.
Our grades are not "made by the President..."
And I hope that no one feels they are second-class!
Nor does anyone starts such a debate like the uniform!!!
Edited to add: See SPAM reply before this one!
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 11, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
QuoteFrom Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package
This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...
CAP
is a formal
paramilitary organization.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 11, 2017, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on October 11, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
QuoteFrom Eclipse
All formal military-style uniforms have headgear, it's part of the package
This is where we have a problem. CAP is not a formal military organization...
CAP is a formal paramilitary organization.
That's an assertion not backed by US Code or chartering documentation, and meaningless in this context. "Formal paramilitary"???
Wishing don't make it so.
"9442. Status as volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force
(a) Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary.—The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government"
Civilian. Term "paramilitary" not found anywhere therein.
Quote from: Spam on October 11, 2017, 09:46:00 PM
Wishing don't make it so.
Nor does it change the definition of the word.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/paramilitary?s=t
"adjective
1. noting or pertaining to an organization operating as, in place of, or as a supplement to a regular military force:"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary
"A paramilitary is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not included as part of a state's formal armed forces.[1]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paramilitary
"of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force a paramilitary border patrol paramilitary training"https://www.thefreedictionary.com/paramilitary
"Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops."
Interesting.
As others have pointed out, dictionaries make a pretty good case for applying the terms "military" and "paramilitary" to CAP.
But dictionaries aside, why do you think that CAP can't be both "civilian" and "paramilitary" or even "military'?
I don't think either term excludes the other. And depending on the context, all may be correct both practically and legally.
The one thing we can probably agree on is that CAP is not part of the United States Armed Forces, which is probably what you consider "the military."
But in some contexts, CAP can certainly be "military," because relatively few purely civilian organizations have uniforms, military-style ranks, a chain of command, military customs and courtesies, and rules about insubordination and the like.
But I do kinda enjoy our civilian aspects as well, as in no UCMJ and a lot of freedoms not available to me before I retired from the Army.
I submit that it just depends on the context of the discussion.
So what?
30% of the uniformed DoD is obese in 2017.
Why are we calling this one cadet out by name? Eyeballing someone about his size, I'd put them at ~18-22% bodyfat - I have been taping and testing people for 20 years... I am usually correct.
Is he in the Civil Air Patrol? None of anyone's business.
I tape-out @ 21% bodyfat, 3% under my allowance. I do have a gut.
If the military sets a particular standard, what is it to anyone here? Standards are standards...
Who here can bench press or even squat their bodyweight or do a double bodyweight deadlift? Who can ruck 10 miles @ a 12 min/mile pace? Who can run a 7 minute mile? Etc etc etc etc.
This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:
QuoteWith the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON'T call me a 'poseur', a 'wannabe', or an 'impostor'. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
We are the U.S. Air Force's volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts 'at low light and at a distance'. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
· While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
· Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
· More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
· When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
· At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
· In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one's term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it's lieutenant colonel).
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn't happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
"CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members."
Some have implied or outright accused me of 'violating military law' by 'badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief'. Ahem... WHAT PART OF 'NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ' DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
Civil Air Patrol's core values are 'Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect', reflecting the U.S. Air Force's core values of 'Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do' to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.
Is that necessary?
Why would you care about anyone's opinion that knows so
little about you they need an FAQ?
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 12, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:
QuoteWith the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON'T call me a 'poseur', a 'wannabe', or an 'impostor'. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
We are the U.S. Air Force's volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts 'at low light and at a distance'. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
· While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
· Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
· More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
· When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
· At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
· In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one's term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it's lieutenant colonel).
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn't happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
"CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members."
Some have implied or outright accused me of 'violating military law' by 'badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief'. Ahem... WHAT PART OF 'NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ' DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
Civil Air Patrol's core values are 'Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect', reflecting the U.S. Air Force's core values of 'Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do' to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.
Don't see any connection between "With the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election" and "some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces." That's been happening for like ever-- people see a military uniform and think we're in the military.
Anyway this is really something you need to clear up with your FB friends??
Believe me, some of my so-called friends on FB are absolutely ignorant of the military. It was not until recently that the matter has come up.
Ignore, unfollow or even unfriend them if they're that much trouble. It's only Face Book.
Quote from: PHall on October 12, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
Ignore, unfollow or even unfriend them if they're that much trouble. It's only Face Book.
And that's exactly what I do... Ignore them often, unfollow when necessary and unfriend them rarely. No skin off my back if someone unfriends or unfollows me.
Quote from: vorteks on October 12, 2017, 03:22:22 PM
-- people see a military uniform and think we're in the military.
Happens to Cadets all the time. People usually think they are high school ROTC.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 12, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:
QuoteWith the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON'T call me a 'poseur', a 'wannabe', or an 'impostor'. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
We are the U.S. Air Force's volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts 'at low light and at a distance'. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
· While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
· Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
· More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
· When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
· At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
· In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one's term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it's lieutenant colonel).
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn't happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
"CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members."
Some have implied or outright accused me of 'violating military law' by 'badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief'. Ahem... WHAT PART OF 'NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ' DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
Civil Air Patrol's core values are 'Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect', reflecting the U.S. Air Force's core values of 'Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do' to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.
TL/DR
Wow...
If you have to post a legal disclaimer
THAT long, you should reconsider your priorities in life.
[edited to fix the color and text size]
For us, a paragraph or two is fine, for outsiders, better to thoroughly 'explainify'.
Quote from: CAPLTC on October 12, 2017, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 12, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
[redacted because I wasn't going to fix it a second time]
TL/DR
Wow...
If you have to post a legal disclaimer THAT long, you should reconsider your priorities in life.
Yea, I really don't see the point in that either.
[edited to get rid of the horrid colors]
To each his own...
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on October 12, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
This is a note I am publishing to my profile on Facebook. But before I pull the trigger, I'd like to give this a review with my fellow CAPTalkers:
QuoteWith the highly polarized political climate that has emerged since the 2016 presidential election some have mistakenly thought I am a serving active duty officer in our Armed Forces. Allow me to thoroughly explain what my status is as a member of Civil Air Patrol:
I am a civilian, volunteer, dues-paying member of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP). Including my service as a cadet, I have been a member, not counting several breaks in membership, for over 15 years. DON'T call me a 'poseur', a 'wannabe', or an 'impostor'. I did serve on active duty in the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force over thirty years ago, and this is my way to give back to the community as a veteran. My social media profiles do identify me as a member of Civil Air Patrol. And certain social media photo albums show me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform.
We are the U.S. Air Force's volunteer civilian auxiliary only when activated and operating on authorized missions issued by the U.S. Air Force. The rest of the time, Civil Air Patrol is a private, non-profit corporation chartered by Congress. We were founded in 1941, well before the U.S. Air Force separated from the U.S. Army and became its own military service in 1947. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) may use the services of CAP to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Air Force.
We wear the U.S. Air Force uniform with distinctive Civil Air Patrol insignia to distinguish ourselves from our Air Force counterparts 'at low light and at a distance'. If we do not meet CAP weight and grooming standards for wear of the Air Force-style uniform, we are restricted to wearing a distinctive corporate-style uniform. Our uniform regulations prohibit the wear of the CAP Air Force-style and corporate uniforms in the following situations (reference CAP Manual 39-1):
· While engaged in private employment. (Implies official sponsorship.)
· Under any circumstance that would tend to bring discredit or reproach upon the uniform.
· More than one hour after conclusion of CAP meetings or activities. (Travel time to and from activities excepted.)
· When participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not approved by the U.S. Air Force. (Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.)
· At any meeting of any prohibited groups. (Fascist, totalitarian, communist, subversive, etc. as determined by the U.S. Attorney General.)
· In a foreign country, unless specifically authorized.
Our officer and enlisted rank structure is similar to that of the U.S. military and we wear the same grade insignia, though our officer grades top off at Major General. Many members – including myself – already hold the highest rank an ordinary member can attain: lieutenant colonel. Promotion to the exalted ranks of colonel, brigadier or major general is upon appointment to wing commander, region commander, national vice commander and national commander, respectively. Certain national staff officers are also appointed as colonels. Upon successful completion of one's term of office and approval by the CAP Command Council (for colonels) and the CAP Board of Governors (for brigadier and major generals) does the grade become permanent, otherwise they revert to the last permanent grade attained (for most of us, it's lieutenant colonel).
I am NOT a commissioned military officer; we are appointed to the rank according to internal CAP regulations. In fact, our rank insignia actually denotes the level of CAP professional development completed. Completion of professional development requirements and time-in-grade is what makes us eligible for promotion to the next higher rank, up to lieutenant colonel.
Civil Air Patrol members are NOT subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). We are subject to our own internal regulations. Only if we accompanied the Air Force into a combat zone and declared a cobelligerent (and that hasn't happened since World War II) would we be subject to military justice. I have ZERO military authority over other members of our Armed Forces. In fact, service members are not required to salute us, though we give and return salutes as a matter of military courtesy. Referencing Air Force Instruction (AFI) 10-2701:
"CAP is not a military service, its members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. Although CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized, but Air Force protocol, customs and courtesies do not apply to CAP members."
Some have implied or outright accused me of 'violating military law' by 'badmouthing the Commander-in-Chief'. Ahem... WHAT PART OF 'NOT SUBJECT TO THE UCMJ' DID YOU NOT READ ABOVE? Article 88 of the UCMJ (Contempt Towards Officials) does NOT apply to me. The President of the United States has NO military authority over me nor is he in the Civil Air Patrol chain of command. My constitutional rights as a private citizen of the United States of America protect my right to free speech and expression; conversely, I am aware that the expression of these rights carry responsibilities and may be opposed by others.
You will NOT see me wearing the Civil Air Patrol uniform participating in a political demonstration. You will NOT see me using my rank to usurp military authority or troll military members to make them salute me. And you will NOT see me wearing the CAP uniform while expressing my personal political beliefs, which may be contrary to others.
Civil Air Patrol's core values are 'Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence and Respect', reflecting the U.S. Air Force's core values of 'Integrity First, Service before Self and Excellence in All We Do' to our status as the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings you may have heard about my status as an officer in the Civil Air Patrol.
^^^^ As soon as they see how long and detailed it is .... None will read it. Maybe one in a thousand. Most folks skim FB posts.
Unless all of your friends are this deeply into this stuff and like to check out all the fine details. But I seriously doubt its the case.
Let me make something VERY clear. Attending a service academy, regardless of status as an inter collegiate athlete, is in no way shape or form a "free education." If your son did indeed graduate from USAFA, it seems you chose not to pay any attention to the goings on there. It is incredibly disrespectful to try to shame someone you don't know at all. Realistically, where else would you have put the few pennies that you paid to USAFA in taxes?
Quote from: etodd on October 12, 2017, 04:24:50 PM
Quote from: vorteks on October 12, 2017, 03:22:22 PM
-- people see a military uniform and think we're in the military.
Happens to Cadets all the time. People usually think they are high school ROTC.
Happens to JROTC cadets as well. My senior year of high school I was in my NJROTC service dress uniform in a store with my mother after she picked me up from an event. A woman in the store asked her where her "husband" was stationed.
For a moment, I glanced past that ginormous quote above and was like "Oh, God, I hope I didn't write that......whew. That was a close one."
Quote from: Panther on October 26, 2017, 03:29:39 AM
Let me make something VERY clear. Attending a service academy, regardless of status as an inter collegiate athlete, is in no way shape or form a "free education." If your son did indeed graduate from USAFA, it seems you chose not to pay any attention to the goings on there. It is incredibly disrespectful to try to shame someone you don't know at all. Realistically, where else would you have put the few pennies that you paid to USAFA in taxes?
Love this.