Main Menu

Civil air patrol CAC Cards

Started by slimshady, May 22, 2015, 05:22:05 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Slim

I had a discussion on this topic about two years ago with a friend of mine (former CAP member and) currently an SF NCO at the largest Air Guard base in the state.  This base is home to units from all branches, as well as a large DHS presence.  And by DHS, I don't mean the Coast Guard, though the base is home to a CG air station and CG Aux unit.  No, the Detroit Sector headquarters for US Border Patrol, CBP air wing, a DMAT team, and a DHS joint command center are also located on base.  Some sworn agents, but a lot of non sworn civilian employees also work in those areas.  When DBIDS was rolled out, it created a problem with all of the non military DHS people, until someone noticed that the DHS agency credentials all had bar codes on them.  The solution was to scan the codes, add DBIDS information to them, and send them along.  So, when a DHS employee comes to the gate, they present their agency card, and the contract security guard scans it. 

Sounds to me like the extent of the background check is a federal (NCIC) and state/local (we call it LEIN here) criminal history/warrant/driving record check.  One person at a computer terminal can crank those out in less than 5 minutes per person.

All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.


Slim

Panache

Quote from: Slim on May 28, 2015, 09:06:37 AM
All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.

What's going to happen when that member (the retiree) leaves CAP?

goblin

Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)


abdsp51

Quote from: Goblin on May 28, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data. 

lordmonar

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: Goblin on May 28, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser


Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: Goblin on May 28, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

I don't know how easy it would be for CAP-USAF to sponsor DBIDS Cards for all CAP members. I know that for contractors, the DoD sponsor has to sign the form before someone can request a CAC. While certainly doable, I think the logistics and cost associated with this process are not as simple as you may think.

lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 05:03:51 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Quote from: Goblin on May 28, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Excellent post/summary Slim, thanks!

Although according to abdsp51, you don't know what you're talking about ;)

Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy.  There is more to it than just scanning a bar code and adding basic data.  And ultimately it will still be Wing CC's call to allow access.  Who is goi g to sponsor 24k adults and who knows how many cadets 18+ org wide? 

Again it's more than simply scanning a barcode and entering data.
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?   How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

I don't know how easy it would be for CAP-USAF to sponsor DBIDS Cards for all CAP members. I know that for contractors, the DoD sponsor has to sign the form before someone can request a CAC. While certainly doable, I think the logistics and cost associated with this process are not as simple as you may think.
NHQ downloads the required data in a format that can be uploaded into the DBIDS database walks it over to Maxwell's Pass and ID Office/and or sends it to DOD DIBDS office at the Pentagon.    CAP reissue CAPIDs that are compatible with the DBIDS.    If we it over a year and/or allowed people to order and pay for new DBIDS compatible CAPIDs....cost to both CAP and USAF would be negligible.   Those who wanted access NOW instead of waiting for the new card to be printed when they renew could pay a replacement fee  (I think it is $10 right now).

If we can't get CAPIDs recognized as official documents...then those that need/want access just go to the base they want/need access to and get a DBIDS card made.   If you want/need access to multiple bases....you repeat as necessary.   Again costs negligible as the costs are already paid for we are just riding their coat tails.....unless everyone showed up on the same day....would not tax the system at all.   And again could be aliviated by passing member dues money to off set the cost of the credentials. 

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

#67
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?

lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?
already did.  Had a personal conversation with the commander of CAP-USAF during the national convention.
So....yes I'm doing my part of resolving the issue.  8)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 06:33:56 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 28, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Sounds easy enough. Are you submitting a formal proposal?
already did.  Had a personal conversation with the commander of CAP-USAF during the national convention.
So....yes I'm doing my part of resolving the issue.  8)

Excellent! Did they accepted your proposal? Are they going to act on it? If so, then this discussion may be a moot point.

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?  How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.

Is CAP-USAF going to send someone to every installation to sign the paperwork and be there in the event a member does something wrong?  How about the other information that is required for DBIDS like the fingerprints and the photo?  So no it's not as simple as a barcode and some data entry.

Cadets will need mom/dads permission for that.  While a move from AETC to ACC may be beneficial and helpful non-ACC bases are not obliged to accept anything from ACC/CC. 

lordmonar

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 08:57:15 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
Who is going to sponsor 24K+ CAP members?  How about CAP-USAF!  And it really is as simple as entering our data into the system and then issuing cards (be they official DBIDS Cards or DBIDS compatible CAPID Cards).

Granted this is a DOD system that is an added wrench into the mix.
And granted this does not supersede the base commander's right to refuse access....but that is not what is happening here.

Is CAP-USAF going to send someone to every installation to sign the paperwork and be there in the event a member does something wrong?  How about the other information that is required for DBIDS like the fingerprints and the photo?  So no it's not as simple as a barcode and some data entry.

Cadets will need mom/dads permission for that.  While a move from AETC to ACC may be beneficial and helpful non-ACC bases are not obliged to accept anything from ACC/CC.
NO PAPER WORK TO SIGN.   Electronics.   Enter the data at NHQ and it appears at the local base.
If some member does something wrong....they get....at the local base level.....flagged in the system and their card confiscated the next time they try to use it.

finger prints are not required for a DBIDS card.  Photos are take at the visitor center when picking up your card.  If the CAPID is modified to be acceptable we just require the picture to be uploaded and validated before the card is issued.  And if we did need to have that type of data...then we would get mom and dad's permission before hand.

You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Slim

Quote from: Panache on May 28, 2015, 02:28:48 PM
Quote from: Slim on May 28, 2015, 09:06:37 AM
All that being said, our wing headquarters is located on the same base, everyone at wing hq, including the wing administrator, and the squadron on base all have DBIDS cards sponsored by a member of the squadron who is a retiree.

What's going to happen when that member (the retiree) leaves CAP?

Hopefully, a workable solution will have come about by then.  If not, there are other members in the area assigned to guard units on base who are willing to sponsor cards.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Fed creds were always good for base access, thats a classic hiccup with the system and entry control policy. 
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base. 


Slim

abdsp51

#73
Quote from: Slim on May 29, 2015, 07:05:44 AM
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base.

I can name a couple bases where they weren't good enough for base entry. 

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 12:53:29 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it. 

lordmonar

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:14:13 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 12:53:29 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it.
Not disputing that....but that is not the current problem.  The current problem is that the regulation written by the SF Air Staff guys.....from the DOD Force Protection guys.......does not have a CAP shaped hole in it.

CAP-USAF has been slow getting anyone to care.
COMACC may get better traction then AETC.

If the local CAP people have screwed up their welcome....well then they screwed up their welcome.

Of course.....if COMACC pushes the issue... Local AMC/AETC/AFMC Base Commander vs ACC MAJCOM commander.......guess who's gonna lose that one.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 07:19:15 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:14:13 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 12:53:29 AM
You are correct....but the COMACC carries a lot more weight around with other MAJCOM commanders then the Commander CAP-USAF and the Commander of the Holmes Center.  More Stars, more money, more power.    Better all around.

That he/she may but other MAJCOM CC's are not obligated to accommodate his/her request to allow it.  Ultimately installation access will still be determined by the Wing CC.  And he/she says not on my yard that will be it.
Not disputing that....but that is not the current problem.  The current problem is that the regulation written by the SF Air Staff guys.....from the DOD Force Protection guys.......does not have a CAP shaped hole in it.

CAP-USAF has been slow getting anyone to care.
COMACC may get better traction then AETC.

If the local CAP people have screwed up their welcome....well then they screwed up their welcome.

Of course.....if COMACC pushes the issue... Local AMC/AETC/AFMC Base Commander vs ACC MAJCOM commander.......guess who's gonna lose that one.  :)

You and I both know COMACC can push all he/she wants they do not write policy for other MAJCOMS nor can they dictate policy to them.  AFGSC would carry just as much weight as COMACC given their mission.  Ultimately it will all boil down to the installation CC.  And the regulation for general base access is written at the base level. 

Much of the so-called access issues are easily alleviated by talking to the right people and learning and working with the process instead of against it. 

lordmonar

Been doing that for the last two years and it has only gotten worse.

Because the regulation is not written with CAP in mind.

For things to get better a USAF level change has to take place.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

Quote from: lordmonar on May 29, 2015, 07:29:20 AM
Been doing that for the last two years and it has only gotten worse.

Because the regulation is not written with CAP in mind.

For things to get better a USAF level change has to take place.

The first two depends on where you are at.  There are many places where CAP was written into the instruction or has been in there for a significant amount of time.  For things to get better it needs to be understood that simply because of who we are is not and does not grant all inclusive use and access to an installation and it's facilities.  Can a USAF level change help, yes but it has to be on both sides of the fence. 

I can tell you that getting things done within current processes can be done with people who are willing to learn the process and system and work with it rather than against it. 

Slim

Quote from: abdsp51 on May 29, 2015, 07:08:54 AM
Quote from: Slim on May 29, 2015, 07:05:44 AM
So were CAP ID cards, prior to DBIDS, at any base.

I can name a couple bases where they weren't good enough for base entry.

You're right.  The only base I ever had a problem accessing strictly with a CAP ID was a SAC base.  They required me to go to Pass & ID and get a visitor pass with a specific destination (BX/clothing sales) and a time limit (1 hour).  Given the nature of the mission at that particular base, I expected a little extra scrutiny.

Otherwise, I never got a second glance at any of the ANG and ARNG facilities here in Michigan.  Also used it to access Wright-Patterson a few times, Fort Huachuca and D-M a couple of times (in 2004-2005), all with no problems.  Showed the gate guard my ID, they asked where I was headed (clothing sales), and then sent me on my way.

I understand that there are systems and mechanisms in place to get access.  If I really had a need for a DBIDS card for Selfridge, I have 2-3 different people who would sponsor me if I asked.  I just don't have a need to access the base as frequently as I used to.  As infrequently as I use the base nowadays, a little preplanning and getting on an EAL isn't really a problem.  If I was still going out there 2-3 times a month, it would be a different story. 


Slim