CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: ADCAPer on November 27, 2006, 05:18:19 PM

Title: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 27, 2006, 05:18:19 PM
Does anyone have any insight into what is going on in Georgia in reference to the Wing Banking Program?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 27, 2006, 07:13:34 PM
I've only heard it mentioned in general that, at some point, all the squadron funds will be administered put of the wings so that they can have better audit results visibility of expendatures.  I have also heard that many squadrons are going to be spending there remaining funds before this happens, as they believe that it will be difficult to get their access to the money they raised after it is under wing control.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Pylon on November 27, 2006, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 27, 2006, 05:18:19 PM
Does anyone have any insight into what is going on in Georgia in reference to the Wing Banking Program?

There's a lot more information contained in the CAPTalk discussion Virginia Wing's "Wing Bank Solution" (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=908.0).   :)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
To summarize:

This is a National program, being phased in gradually.  We were told in ILWG over two years, but the last I heard from a reliable source, was that everyone is just "so darned happy" with the idea that they are accelerating the implementation.

Nutshell:

Units write a check to their Wing and close all local accounts.

Wing issues all checks, based on check requests issued by the local FM.

No unit relief of accounting or reporting - all units still required to have an FM and finance committee.

Barring malfeasance, Wing bankers will have no more (or less) say about how the money is spent then they do today.

Many questions to be answered, but get used to it, this will happen, and this thread (or the other one) is not the place to say it shouldn't, can't or won't.  The plan is approved, all that remains for the states not doing it is the schedule.

As a side note, “alternate” funding schemes such as foundations, are against regs because they would redirect funds from the corporation, which is verboten,  and “spending all your money in advance, because the hell if wing will get it…” is a childish response that I have heard way too much locally.




Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: fyrfitrmedic on November 27, 2006, 08:23:47 PM
PAWG is in the midst of the implementation process.

Is it working? Too soon to tell from this angle.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: davedove on November 27, 2006, 08:42:25 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time.

This is the potential headache.  As long as the wing personnel are prompt, everything should work okay.

This was discussed at the MD Wing Conference and they are planning to implement it sometime in the next couple of years.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: BillB on November 27, 2006, 08:46:32 PM
I checked with two fixed base operators in Florida. If there is a CAP mssion, they accept, cash, credit card or check for fuel. They will not wait a week or longer for payment. This means members will have to pay for fuel used on Air Force mssions, and hope to get their money back prior to the credit card company adding interest, and many credit cards charge interest from date of purchase.
While those two widely separated FBOs may not be represenative of FBOs, it does indicate a problem for members. Military aircraft coming to those FBOs have no problem, every military aircraft carries a Government credit card. A program that CAP dropped years ago.

And what do you do when a bunch of cadets order insignia and pay cash? Since the Squadron can't have a checking account, they have to purchase a money order to send to Wing.  An added expense to the local units.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 27, 2006, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
No unit relief of accounting or reporting - all units still required to have an FM and finance committee.

Where, might I ask is this helping the squadron's?  Same bureaucratic stuff to put up with and harder to get a check.


Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
Many questions to be answered, but get used to it, this will happen, and this thread (or the other one) is not the place to say it shouldn't, can't or won't.  The plan is approved, all that remains for the states not doing it is the schedule.

Where is the correct place?


Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
As a side note, "alternate" funding schemes such as foundations, are against regs because they would redirect funds from the corporation, which is verboten,  and "spending all your money in advance, because the hell if wing will get it..." is a childish response that I have heard way too much locally.

I have heard stories of members and/or squadrons buying or donating equipment and then their wing decides it would be nice for the Wing to have, thus it gets appropriated from the squadron who earned/bought/donated/built it.  I think this is where the suspicion comes from.

The squadrons may not be able to use alternate funding schemes, but they can choose to abandon independent fund raising, which won't do anyone any good.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 27, 2006, 08:59:30 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

So do the squadron signers remain the same, or is that delegated to the Wing?  How would it work for squardon's that are not located near a Wing HQ?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 09:04:14 PM
OK - I guess we'll extend this here.

Have your members order their own insignia.

Many wings till have Wing charge in their airplanes, established accounts, or just don't do business with particular FBOs.

Get a real charge card or don't assume the responsibility.

The bank plan specifically indicates that SOP in many cases will be for the member / commander, etc., to assume the cost and request reimbursiment.
If you can't afford it, don't do it, someone else will, or the item / event will simply not happen.

Some of us have legit issues with power and light bills, or encampments that incur 10's of thousands of dollars in expenses, while others seem to think that this plan will live or die because of unit insignia stores.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 09:09:11 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 27, 2006, 08:59:30 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

So do the squadron signers remain the same, or is that delegated to the Wing?  How would it work for squardon's that are not located near a Wing HQ?

Signers, FM's and committee remains the same.

What you do if you are far from your HQ is one of the questions.

In ILWG, though the information will be held in a single place, with an "account" for each unit, the actual funds, it is assumed, will actually be in 5-6  banks across the states, and units FM's will make their own deposits.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 27, 2006, 09:37:50 PM
Regarding Foundations...take a look at the Iowa Wing web page.  Apparently they have a non-profit foundation set up to take donations.  Doesn't smell right to me.... especially since the foundation's email account is a cap.gov account.  http://www.iawg.cap.gov/foundation/home.html (http://www.iawg.cap.gov/foundation/home.html)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: arajca on November 27, 2006, 09:52:42 PM
The unit signers sign the check request. The wing signers sign the check.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Pylon on November 27, 2006, 10:12:54 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 27, 2006, 09:37:50 PM
Regarding Foundations...take a look at the Iowa Wing web page.  Apparently they have a non-profit foundation set up to take donations.  Doesn't smell right to me.... especially since the foundation's email account is a cap.gov account.  http://www.iawg.cap.gov/foundation/home.html (http://www.iawg.cap.gov/foundation/home.html)

Not to derail the discussion, but CAP can't "forbid" Foundations.  Any group of people can choose to set-up a 501(c)(3) corporation; CAP can't prevent citizens from doing that.

A group of people who care about the mission of a particular wing/group/squadron, such as members of the unit, spouses and family members of CAP members, parents of cadets, and community members, can form a corporation who's purpose is (in a very small nutshell) to collect funds to support the specific unit.

It takes paperwork, redtape, and legal knowledge, but it's doable and not illegal.  If CAP says members can't participate, CAP can't tell member's friends, family, spouses, parents, and others what they can and cannot do.

In many situations, especially if a unit has a member who is, or has access to, a professional fundraiser, a Foundation would be a very wise choise to hold cash donations and assets.   A squadron properly run could easily acquire, through community fundraising and grantwriting, tens of thousands of dollars and even grants for buildings and other useful items.

One has to be very careful in distinguishing the business of the foundation from the unit; they need to be completely separated and no CAP/unit funds or materials should be used to assist the foundation or perform foundation business.   But so long as the CAP unit's actual money and property is properly managed as it should, and the Foundation simply makes donations of purchased materials or donations of cash to the unit (with Wing approval to accept the donations if necessary), there is no other jurisdiction of CAP regulations upon the foundation.

I have a bit of insight on this, as a member of the Association of Fundraising Professionals and because I work for a Foundation that supports a mostly government-funded, but still private corporation. 

But I think this is a whole topic unto it's own, probably best for another thread...
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 27, 2006, 10:14:20 PM
I'm not neccessarily against it, as long as the squadon still has the yea or nea over the use of the funds they raised.  Within reason and regulations.  I seems to take a long time to get reimbursed for funded missions, but maybe that is because of the approval process in place for that.  So long, in fact, that I view submitting 108's like a lottery ticket......if I ever do get paid, it's like found money.  For a ground team leader it's not so bad, but I know pilots who have had hundreds of dollars of their own money hanging out there for months before getting repaid.

It just seems that the members are asked more and more to inconvienience themselves for doing volunteer work where we already pay to be in the organization in the first place.

As for my unit, it won't be a big impact.  We have no significant bills to pay other than insignia, incidental supplies and the odd gas/oil for squadron activities.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 10:43:08 PM
I've beat this up pretty hard with my Group's legal officer, who has inturn discussed it w/ NHQ.

The ones which are specifically banned would be the ones where the unit CC directs members to forgo donating funds (i.e. dues, etc.) direct to the unit in an effort to bypass Wing control of the money (or other 173-3 regs).

But in practical reality, there is no way for one of these foundations to function, attached to a specific unit, without input / direction from the unit staff.

Since all CAP money is corporate money, any suggestion that money intended for direct donation instead be given "elsewhere", could be considered diversion of funds, which is a violation of the law, not just regs.

IANAL, YMMV, blah, blah.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: arajca on November 27, 2006, 10:48:36 PM
As for ongoing bills (utilities, etc), an authoriztaion can be given to the wing by the finance committee along with having the bill sent to wing for payment. Wing will make the payment - using your unit's money, of course - every billing cycle.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Pylon on November 27, 2006, 10:55:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 10:43:08 PM
Since all CAP money is corporate money, any suggestion that money intended for direct donation instead be given "elsewhere", could be considered diversion of funds, which is a violation of the law, not just regs.

Not if the donation was soliticted in the first place directly by the Foundation.   In other words, community member Joe Smith receives a letter from CAP XYZ Foundation asking for a donation to the squadron.  Joe writes check to Foundation because he got the direct mail solitication and liked the pretty pictures in the letter.  Joe writes check and puts in return envelope that goes to Foundation's P.O. Box.  Foundation staff/volunteer deposits Joe's generous donation of 52 cents into the Foundation's coffers.

Joe's donation is not redirecting money that would have otherwise gone to CAP, because frankly, CAP never would have written Joe asking for a donation of money.

But yes -- there is a very fine, legal line that needs to be watched closely with the Foundation/supported agency relationship -- both for CAP and for other like-structured Foundations.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: BlackKnight on November 27, 2006, 11:00:27 PM
QuoteMany questions to be answered, but get used to it, this will happen, and this thread (or the other one) is not the place to say it shouldn't, can't or won't.  The plan is approved, all that remains for the states not doing it is the schedule.
The entire wing bank concept was in dramatic conflict with approved CAP finance regulations until the revised regulations hit the street on 8 Nov 06.  Thus all orders requiring participation in the wing bank were technically invalid until 8 Nov.  This takes us over to the parallel CAPTalk thread at http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1077.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1077.0).  Substitute CAPR 173-1 for CAPM 39-1 or CAPR 60-3 and you get the picture.  I still don't understand how the Virginia Wing operated in open conflict with CAPR 173-1 for such a long time while they developed the wing banker concept.

Speaking of the revised CAPR 173-1 and related regulations, those of you with a little curiosity should take a look at CAPR 5-1.  This is the master regulation that describes the only methods by which CAP regulations may be issued and revised.  Note the mandatory 60-day comment period where the drafts must be posted on a CAP website accessible to all members.  Did we miss something here?  How did CAPR 173-1 and the related regulations get revised without the comment period?   I don't think this meets the criterion for emergency revisions to "protect life or property".   Note also the clear statements that no member shall be penalized for non-compliance with a regulation prior to the time it is published pursuant to CAP regulations.
So it's a fine mess we have here.  Is the current CAPR 173-1 and related revised regulations valid? It does not appear that they were published pursuant to CAP regulations. Do we default back to the previous editions? 

QuoteAs a side note, "alternate" funding schemes such as foundations, are against regs because they would redirect funds from the corporation, which is verboten...
I think it's pretty clear that existing CAP funds cannot and should not be intentionally diverted to avoid the wing bank.  However, I do not see how CAP can possibly have any control over how other non-profit agencies or trusts manage their funds.  I would be interested to see a direct reference to that Omnipotent regulation!  ;)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 01:16:11 AM
Whenever I bother to check that section of the website there is almost always a draft version of some regulation there for review.  The Comm reg was there recently. 

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 28, 2006, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 09:04:14 PM
OK - I guess we'll extend this here.

Have your members order their own insignia.

Many wings till have Wing charge in their airplanes, established accounts, or just don't do business with particular FBOs.

Get a real charge card or don't assume the responsibility.

The bank plan specifically indicates that SOP in many cases will be for the member / commander, etc., to assume the cost and request reimbursiment.
If you can't afford it, don't do it, someone else will, or the item / event will simply not happen.

Some of us have legit issues with power and light bills, or encampments that incur 10's of thousands of dollars in expenses, while others seem to think that this plan will live or die because of unit insignia stores.
I don't want to discount what you're saying, but don't think the silly little unit supply box is unimportant because ita value is under a hundred bucks. When a kid works real hard to earn a stripe & ribbon & you don't have it to give, that breaks hearts & destroys retention. maybe you can get by with it here & there, but try not having one lazy kid at Amn & one motivated kid at SrA but they're both still wearing one stripe, just wait & see how long that motivation stays intact & don't hold your beath waiting for the lazy kid to wake up & get moving. It may be a low dollar thing, but it matters more than the number of zeros at the end.

Quote from: ELThunter on November 27, 2006, 08:59:30 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

So do the squadron signers remain the same, or is that delegated to the Wing?  How would it work for squardon's that are not located near a Wing HQ?
I'd ask that question also. I assume you mean a couple Wg Sr Staff officers have to sign to reimburse me with my own money, after a sufficient delay of course. A couple times a week sounds fine, but are they going to keep that up? It's going to get pretty full time, especially in a large wing lke mine. I'm hearing that & thinking abou tmy Wg's AEO that sends off Yeagers to NHQ twice a year when he feels like it. Then I'm thinking about how I'm going to pay for local activities, much less do anything on the fly. I'm also thinking about how everything we do seems to price more & more people out of participating. We were exempted from ADA but decided we'd voluntarily comply anyway (why I don't know), but we don't care in the slightest about less that rich people; that's freakin genius right there.

I understand & agree with the motivation behind doing this, but I'll say again, they are going about it all wrong. They should look to other de-centralized non-profits for an example. In a fraternity for instance, very large sums are processed locally & an annual financial report does go up each year in the annual report, but local money is NEVER considered property of the national corporation. If it were, a law suit over an incedent in one place could take local dues away from good people in another place. Yet, they still attain a certified audit (unqualified - unconditional) & pull more grants than CAP will ever see. Incedently why is CAP trying to attain outside grants & such. If they need money for something, that should be requested in the AF budget, if they say no then it just shouldn't happen. I don't like us beholden to anyone else.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: BlackKnight on November 28, 2006, 03:21:47 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 01:16:11 AM
Whenever I bother to check that section of the website there is almost always a draft version of some regulation there for review.  The Comm reg was there recently. 

Precisely my point. To our knowledge the revisions to the financial regs were never posted for comment.  Since we're in the middle of all this I doubt we would have missed it.  We've been checking for the drafts of the new regs almost daily over the past couple of months.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 04:06:23 AM
I wonder....if the National Commander issues an Emergency Change I think it automatically accepted unless rejected by the NB or one of those groups.  Would an emergency change have to go through the review process?  I have no clue if that happened here but thought it might be a possibility. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 28, 2006, 04:08:09 AM
Quote from: DNall on November 28, 2006, 01:23:29 AM
Incidentally why is CAP trying to attain outside grants & such. If they need money for something, that should be requested in the AF budget, if they say no then it just shouldn't happen. I don't like us beholden to anyone else.

Could this be one of the drivers behind this change?  Is national trying to find alternative methods of financing that makes them less reliant on the AF, and this makes the "Corporation" stronger and enabling them to move farther away from USAF control?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: BlackKnight on November 28, 2006, 04:50:37 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 04:06:23 AM
I wonder....if the National Commander issues an Emergency Change I think it automatically accepted unless rejected by the NB or one of those groups.  Would an emergency change have to go through the review process?  I have no clue if that happened here but thought it might be a possibility. 

Good point. That's certainly a possibility, but it would be the biggest "end run" since OJ played in the Rose Bowl.   ;D
Here's the applicable paragraph from CAPR 5-1:

4. Emergency Regulations.
a. General. Emergency regulations are regulations issued by the National Commander pursuant to Article XX paragraph 3 of the Constitution for which the National Commander declares the regulation to relate to a situation requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency or an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property.


I just don't see how revisions to the financial regs could possibly be considered a state of emergency. And one would think that in the revision description/purpose of the regulation it would define the revision as an emergency revision. These don't.  Nor are there any accompanying paperwork or letters declaring such.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 05:06:01 AM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 28, 2006, 04:08:09 AM
Quote from: DNall on November 28, 2006, 01:23:29 AM
Incidentally why is CAP trying to attain outside grants & such. If they need money for something, that should be requested in the AF budget, if they say no then it just shouldn't happen. I don't like us beholden to anyone else.

Could this be one of the drivers behind this change?  Is national trying to find alternative methods of financing that makes them less reliant on the AF, and this makes the "Corporation" stronger and enabling them to move farther away from USAF control?

No, yes, kind of, I guess.  Hm....

The reasons given were to allow us to obtain an "unqualified" audit, which supposedly opens doors to lines of credit and donation not open today.

But it needs to be said that we don't get dollar 1 from the USAF.  All of our funding is via a Congressional appropriation which appears as a line item of the USAF budget, but does not come "from" them.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 05:15:15 AM
The wing banker program was being tried as an experiment in some wings and I imagine that was being done through approved Wing supplements, which wouldn't go through the national review process.  But, as to how it got national, I don't know.  If someone cares to go throug NB/BOG/NEC minutes they could probably find out more about the details of how it happened. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 28, 2006, 07:22:15 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 05:06:01 AM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 28, 2006, 04:08:09 AM
Quote from: DNall on November 28, 2006, 01:23:29 AM
Incidentally why is CAP trying to attain outside grants & such. If they need money for something, that should be requested in the AF budget, if they say no then it just shouldn't happen. I don't like us beholden to anyone else.

Could this be one of the drivers behind this change?  Is national trying to find alternative methods of financing that makes them less reliant on the AF, and this makes the "Corporation" stronger and enabling them to move farther away from USAF control?

No, yes, kind of, I guess.  Hm....

The reasons given were to allow us to obtain an "unqualified" audit, which supposedly opens doors to lines of credit and donation not open today.

But it needs to be said that we don't get dollar 1 from the USAF.  All of our funding is via a Congressional appropriation which appears as a line item of the USAF budget, but does not come "from" them.
Which originates as a request reviewed by AF and made by them to Congress, CAP does not directly request anything from congress at any time, though admittedly there is a lot of back channel to it. Operations are also paid out of thier O&M budget, as well as some other stuff. The fact is if the AF ever decides it doesn't need CAP, congress won't give us a dime & probably will pay rougher then that (I've heard the plan), and there will be no CAP 30 days later.

There are orgs out there that would be willing to give us money to help support our programs, but it makes us beholden to them & compliant with their standards. Ultimately it is he with the gold makes the rules, and I like that staying the AF, or at least the AF coordinating requests for support from other govt agencies. I do NOT like being supported by non-govt orgs.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Al Sayre on November 28, 2006, 12:39:07 PM
The whole wing banker thing comes from the fact that as a non-profit, CAP is subject to audit, but we can't get an Unqualified (read clean) Audit because no-one knows how much money is floating around in the 4000 squadron accounts that National doesn't know about.  The estimate is around $3-4 million.  This hurts us when trying to play with the big charities for funding.  With the Wing Banker, the 52 Wings can be audited and CAP can get the Unqualified Audit it needs.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 04:33:13 PM
Quote from: BlackKnight on November 27, 2006, 11:00:27 PM
I think it's pretty clear that existing CAP funds cannot and should not be intentionally diverted to avoid the wing bank.  However, I do not see how CAP can possibly have any control over how other non-profit agencies or trusts manage their funds.  I would be interested to see a direct reference to that Omnipotent regulation!  ;)

Well.  They cannot.  However, one item of interest is that it needs to be very clear that when these other non-profits are set up to have money on the side, that when they are raising funds, members cannot indicate that the money is for Civil Air Patrol.  (I.E. they can't raise money in the name of CAP, or in uniform... etc...)  If they do, the members involved can have their membership terminated, and their non-profit corporation can be sued.  (And, depending on how everything is done... I think that laws involving fraud could come into play...)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 04:36:41 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 05:15:15 AM
The wing banker program was being tried as an experiment in some wings and I imagine that was being done through approved Wing supplements, which wouldn't go through the national review process.  But, as to how it got national, I don't know.  If someone cares to go throug NB/BOG/NEC minutes they could probably find out more about the details of how it happened. 

Actually, this was not originally done as a Wing project, but as a National project.  It was originally done under corporate mandate from NHQ with Virginia wing being the "guinea pig."
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 04:36:41 PMActually, this was not originally done as a Wing project, but as a National project.  It was originally done under corporate mandate from NHQ with Virginia wing being the "guinea pig."

Actually, my sources say you have that backwards. 

Virginia Wing did this on their own and thought it was "so awesome" they brought it up through their Region, etc.  We can thank them for this mess.

It should be noted that those same sources tell me that Virginia, much like most Region Commands, has a very low per-day transaction count, so unlike a state like ILWG, which is buried, implementing this for them was not as big a deal.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 05:38:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 05:09:39 PM

Actually, my sources say you have that backwards. 

Virginia Wing did this on their own and though it was "so awesome" they brought it up through their Region, etc.  We can thank them for this mess.

It should be noted that those same sources tell me that Virginia, much like most Region Commands, has a very low per-day transaction count, so unlike a state like ILWG, which is buried, implementing this for them was not as big a deal.

Well.  Could be.  (Sorry... but that comment also made me think we need a custom CAP Magic 8-Ball... "My sources say...")  (I won't name my source, but he/she is normally pretty reliable... but it's not worth an argument... and that's not to say that the information wasn't garbled in transmission...)

However, I will say, our wing has this implemented and it is running successfully.  I wouldn't call it a mess at all.  (And, we have a pretty decent sized volume.)

I was pretty much against this program when it was announced (and was fairly vocal about it)... but... it's working pretty well.  Plus, it cuts down on a lot of the duties at the local unit.  Having experienced it... I think this is actually a good idea and a step in the right direction.

Mind you, it's working well as our Wing FO and Wing OM did a super duper job coming up with our policies and procedures documents... (which if your Wing King calls my Wing King about and asks nicely... I'm sure he'd make available...) 

On another note... this whole unit credit card thing... boy... if that doesn't scream FWA opportunity... That program... I'm not sold on... although... I can understand some of the probable reasoning behind it... not that I agree completely...

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 06:49:18 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 05:38:55 PM...it cuts down on a lot of the duties at the local unit.  Having experienced it... I think this is actually a good idea and a step in the right direction.

What has it reduced locally?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: carnold1836 on November 28, 2006, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on November 28, 2006, 12:39:07 PM
The whole wing banker thing comes from the fact that as a non-profit, CAP is subject to audit, but we can't get an Unqualified (read clean) Audit because no-one knows how much money is floating around in the 4000 squadron accounts that National doesn't know about.  The estimate is around $3-4 million.  This hurts us when trying to play with the big charities for funding.  With the Wing Banker, the 52 Wings can be audited and CAP can get the Unqualified Audit it needs.

How does this hurt CAP when trying to play with the the big charities for funding. The Boy Scouts of America, a non-profit organization much larger than CAP, has well over 4000 units spread across the US and each of these troops, packs, crews, ships, etc. have there own accounts as do the councils in each city/state region. As a former employee of one of those councils and troop leader at the local level they never report financials to National Scout Headquarters in Dallas. I would say that they are a very large benefactor of some very large charitable contributions.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 06:49:18 PM
What has it reduced locally?

For starters... no more checks and statements to deal with.  Wing handles it all.  This is especially nice with monthly bills.  In fact, you can pretty much not worry about Paragraph 5 of CAPR 173-1, and all its sub-items.  (That's all the banking procedures.)

No more CAPF 173-2.

No more maintaining Financial Records per paragraph 13.  Your financial review (per paragraph 14) will practically be done for you.  Same with paragraph 15 (with some items exempted as well).

Basically, most of the busywork you had before is cut out.  You lose some conveniece of having a checkbook.  But, if your wing is on the ball, you can get a check the next day.

So, for the most part, the things you have to worry about are Finance Commitee type things, like their approvals, minutes and whatnot.  (Which, you already do anyway...)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 08:00:59 PM
Quote from: carnold1836 on November 28, 2006, 07:37:58 PM
How does this hurt CAP when trying to play with the the big charities for funding. The Boy Scouts of America, a non-profit organization much larger than CAP, has well over 4000 units spread across the US and each of these troops, packs, crews, ships, etc. have there own accounts as do the councils in each city/state region. As a former employee of one of those councils and troop leader at the local level they never report financials to National Scout Headquarters in Dallas. I would say that they are a very large benefactor of some very large charitable contributions.

Well.  The Boy Scouts get some of their money because they are the Boy Scouts.  (Face it, name recognition helps them a lot.  It also helps them with fundraising too.)

For big money grants, apparently an unqualified audit helps you a lot.  (I didn't know this... but apparently a lot of agencies have an unqualified audit as a requirement to apply for their money.)

Basically, from what some accounting/finance folks have told me... the difference in audit types will allow us to apply for some big money that would otherwise be unavailable.  Plus, it also allows us to better monitor for FWA.  (You may be offended about this... but believe me... we do need it.  Lots of units are on suspension... to include some wings... for FWA items...  It's always the 1 out of the 100 that ruins it for the rest of us...)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 28, 2006, 08:23:35 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 05:09:39 PM
Mind you, it's working well as our Wing FO and Wing OM did a super duper job coming up with our policies and procedures documents... (which if your Wing King calls my Wing King about and asks nicely... I'm sure he'd make available...) 

You've started to get towards my area of concern. To begin with, despite what people keep telling me, CAPR 173-1 does not require anyone to participate in Wing Banking. In fact, if anyone has any type of document from National which indicates that this program is mandatory then I would like to see it. National obviously doesn't know where it's located or it would be posted it on the national web site so everyone could see and know that this program is truly legitimate.

Unfortunately just to further compound the problem, it appears that CAP is obviously going to allow each wing to develop their own guide on how to run the program.

It seems to me that a better plan would be National to lay down the ground rules in CAPR 173-1 than to have every state decide how to manage their program through a "guide" book which can then be rewritten any time the wing doesn't like the way things are going.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Al Sayre on November 28, 2006, 08:28:33 PM
I'm not an accountant, but what TankerT says pretty much echos the way it was explained by our Wing CV.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 08:36:42 PM
Don't they have a Nov-dated 173-3 up on the web page right now?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 08:39:03 PM
OK...

CAPR 173-1 does not itself force Wings to use the Wing Banking Program.  There is a separate policy letter on this.  (It may also be in some NEC minutes.  I'm not sure.)   There is a timeline that will eventually have all Wings on this program.  CAPR 173-1 has been revised to be in a transition state right now.  Eventually, it will change for everyone, and the CAPR 173-1 will be rewritten again to reflect that.

NHQ has lain down the ground rules for this program.  There is a guide book that lays down what the framework as to how the program works.  Wings then can lay down how to work within that framework in order to best suit their needs. 

I can understand why NHQ hasn't put the program on-line yet.  When it is your turn to implement the program, your WIFA (whom is an NHQ employee) will work with your Wing CC and Wing FO to implement the program.  This way, there is little misunderstanding during the implementation. 

NHQ has made it clear through channels this is coming.  Just because it isn't on the website, doesn't mean it isn't legit.  And, if you don't have all the information, I'd say it's more of a communications issue in your chain of command.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 08:40:32 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 28, 2006, 08:36:42 PM
Don't they have a Nov-dated 173-3 up on the web page right now?

Yes.  Although, CAPR 173-1 is the reg that is important in this aspect.  (It is November dates as well.)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 28, 2006, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 08:39:03 PM
OK...

NHQ has lain down the ground rules for this program.  There is a guide book that lays down what the framework as to how the program works.  Wings then can lay down how to work within that framework in order to best suit their needs. 

I can understand why NHQ hasn't put the program on-line yet.  When it is your turn to implement the program, your WIFA (whom is an NHQ employee) will work with your Wing CC and Wing FO to implement the program.  This way, there is little misunderstanding during the implementation. 


I understand that National has said that this is coming, however CAPR 173-1 says nothing about being in a transitional state. I also cannot comprehend that a policy letter on finance would trump the CAP Constitution, which states that: All funds and property acquired by Civil Air Patrol in any manner and from whatever sources shall be received in the name of Civil Air Patrol and shall become the property of the Corporation, and shall be administered and accounted for as prescribed in the Bylaws and regulations."

It just seems to me that it's going to be impossible to meet the constitutional requirement when National can't get a decent regulation out there.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 09:00:36 PM
Well. CAPR 173-1... it refers to exemptions for Wings participating in the WBP all over the place.  The regulation doesn't talk about it being transitional.  But, eventually, as written, it will be obsolete.  (As, all units will be in wings participating in WBP.  Thus, making all the paragraphs in there describing things they are exempt from useless.)  Thus it is implied that it is transitional.  Plus, that is the current intent.

You can whine about it all you want.  But it is here for some of us, and coming for everyone else.  The program, while having some bugs, is pretty good.  (It's not the doom and gloom many people are saying it is.)

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 09:12:49 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 06:49:18 PM
What has it reduced locally?

For starters... no more checks and statements to deal with.  Wing handles it all.  This is especially nice with monthly bills.  In fact, you can pretty much not worry about Paragraph 5 of CAPR 173-1, and all its sub-items.  (That's all the banking procedures.)

No more CAPF 173-2.

No more maintaining Financial Records per paragraph 13.  Your financial review (per paragraph 14) will practically be done for you.  Same with paragraph 15 (with some items exempted as well).

Basically, most of the busywork you had before is cut out.  You lose some conveniece of having a checkbook.  But, if your wing is on the ball, you can get a check the next day.

So, for the most part, the things you have to worry about are Finance Commitee type things, like their approvals, minutes and whatnot.  (Which, you already do anyway...)

I'm not seeing it this way at all.

The ONLY thing relived is putting a stamp in the mail.

Units are still required to do full record keeping, file an annual financial report, tracks their expenses, do budgets, etc.

The only difference is WHAT bank its in, and that there is an extra step to paying a bill.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 09:12:49 PM

Units are still required to do full record keeping, file an annual financial report, tracks their expenses, do budgets, etc.



For the most part... not really.

My wing tracks my expenses and provides me with a monthly list.  I can keep a record if I want... but Wing tracks this for me and provides me with the report.  And, a budget is actually not required.  Sure... you probably want to do it.  But, it's not a requirement per CAPR 173-1.

As for record keeping and an annual report:

"5. Banking Policies. Units participating in the Wing Banker Program are excluded from these banking requirements."

13. Financial Records.  ... "Units participating in the Wing Banker Program are excluded from this requirement as all financial documentation will be retained at Wing level."


15. Reporting.

"c. Each group, squadron, and flight will, on or before 1 November of each year, submit direct to wing headquarters one copy of CAPF 173-2 for the preceding fiscal year. ... Units participating in the Wing Banker Program are excluded from this reporting requirement."


Oh... and some of the work is done for you... per regs...

14. Financial Review.  "Upon change of a unit commander and/or finance officer, an internal review must be performed. ... Units participating in the Wing Banker Program will be provided with an updated financial report from Wing level detailing the unit's banking activity and fund balances for the past year."
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 09:51:33 PM
Here's an example of how this program can reduce your workload... other than the specific exclusions in the new CAPR 173-1.

Lets say you have the following routine expenses:

1- Hangar rent
2- Aircraft fuel bill
3- Telephone bill
4- Electrical bill
5- Gas (Heating) bill
6- Water/sewer bill
7- Aircraft oil changes
8- Van oil changes

Right now... you would probably be cutting 8 checks a month for this.

Under the WBP, you can write a Finance Committe memo approving the above to be identified as reocurring expenses, and paid by Wing HQ from your account.  You then have your bills routed to your Wing HQ (or wherever they tell you to send them.)  You then send that memo to Wing HQ.  That's it!

So, you have your FC appointed for a year.  So, for the year, you write and mail this memo once.  Or, you can mail 96 checks through the year to pay the bills.

1 document mailed... or 96. 

Your unit might not have all of these routine expenses... but... some do!
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2006, 10:28:31 PM
WOW!   :o

I stand extremely corrected and will need to review the updated 173's!

None of this information was available when the initial discussions were
had and all indications were that no relief from any reporting was provided by the plan.

The above would indicate that there is at least SOME payback for the hassle.

Its THESE kinds of dicsussions that make these boards worthwhile.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 28, 2006, 10:40:20 PM
While Wing Banking does introduce some hassles here... it eliminates (in my opinion) way more that in adds.

It also helps that our Wing Administrator is a super guy and super efficient... I guess he's just a super hero.  (Sans tights and cape.)

If your wing administrator takes 8 weeks to turn around anything... well... it will suck for you.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 29, 2006, 12:30:38 AM
Like any other new program, it'll suck till they knock the dirt off. That could be dangerous on finance, but hopefully your Wing will be extremely careful in transition, and I'm glad they're only doing a few wings at once. I'm sure most of our headaches will be worked out over time. There wer other ways to go about this though. The Wg FM could have had read-only access to account records for instance, they could have required everyone to go thru one back to simplify that. Or they could have gone the route I suggested above, which is to not consider locally raised funds or property purchased with them as property of the corporation, and as such they are outside the big picture audit & have zero effect on it being certified w/o qualifications. What the people providing grants out there are looking for is a pattern of the corporation responsibilly spending its own moeny on the things its appropriated for, so that when they give you a hundred grand to help pay for members to attend NIMS courses or pay deployed per diem like some other orgs do off grant money, then the moeny will actually go to that & no one will be rigging up records to cover for the personal Vegas trip. Locally raised & spent funds have nothing to do with that & there's no reason they need to be considered in the audit except to preserve the ability of Wg/Reg/NHQ to come take your generator or recruiting rig.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 03:21:14 AM
I'm just wondering what will happen by the time this program gets around to my area. I wasn't impressed with how this program is being implemented to begin with, but now I'm being told that in GA at least there won't even be separate accounts, the wing is going to pool all of the money in one bank account and then track the squadrons balances separately in some type of accounting software.

If there was at least a decent regulation out there I wouldn't be so skeptical, but I have a really bad feeling about the way this is being handled. I'm not accusing anyone of being a crook, but I believe that there had to be a better way to do this that didn't raise so many ethical red flags.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 29, 2006, 04:30:31 AM
Yes, only 1 bank account but a certain amount of it will belong to each squadron.  Its really no big deal to track things that way. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: capchiro on November 29, 2006, 02:38:05 PM
Until the mandatory SNAFU that invariably strikes.  You know, when one unit's deposit is attributed to another unit, or when one unit's bills are charged to another unit, etc.  I think the squadron will need to still maintain squadron records of all deposits and expenses to make sure that the Wing record is correct on a monthly basis.  A Wing having 60 squadrons with each sending in deposits and withdrawals is ripe for mistaken entries, etc.  Of course, one should trust Wing with all of their money, even if that Wing was $30,000.00 in the hole when the new Wing Commander was appointed, but I digress.     
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Psicorp on November 29, 2006, 03:05:52 PM
The one question I have about this is about reciepts.  If you set up your bills to go to Wing and Wing pays them, the only way you'd know they didn't is when you get an over-due notice...or worse, an eviction notice. 

Units keeping their own records I think would be vital.   It seems to me that the best way to do it would be for the unit to recieve the bills then forward them to Wing monthly, each bill should have the date and the amount that was paid for the previous month which can be used for record keeping.   

The Wing Bank isn't a bad idea, all things considered.   
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 03:17:45 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on November 29, 2006, 03:05:52 PM
The one question I have about this is about reciepts.  If you set up your bills to go to Wing and Wing pays them, the only way you'd know they didn't is when you get an over-due notice...or worse, an eviction notice.   

Well.  You wouldn't get an overdue notice as the bills would go to Wing HQ... to include the overdue notice.

However, you would get a monthly print out of what was paid to whom, and it would be easy to see if your payment for your rental was paid or not, without your keeping records locally.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: smj58501 on November 29, 2006, 04:17:50 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 29, 2006, 04:30:31 AM
Yes, only 1 bank account but a certain amount of it will belong to each squadron.  Its really no big deal to track things that way. 

On paper all this appears fine, well, and streamlined... i.e. it "should" work as advertised. My one concern is what is detailed above.

To use an example....  X Sqdn puts together a tremendous marketing plan, and realizes great success in their fundraising efforts. In good faith and in keeping with the spirit of this new program, they have the money deposited at the wing level, thinking all along it is earmarked for them. In the meantime, Y Wing (which is "tracking" this money) has some financial shortfalls at their level, and/or another one of their squadrons is having some tough times.

Now that the wing is "tracking" the money (i.e. in control of it), what is to PREVENT them from diverting the money X Sqdn raised for their initiatives to support other wing "priorities" (as determined by the wing)???

A centralized accounting system makes sense... one that guarantees visibility of all funds. A system that removes sqdn control of their checkbook does not, and is a big cause for concern.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 03:21:14 AM
I'm just wondering what will happen by the time this program gets around to my area. I wasn't impressed with how this program is being implemented to begin with, but now I'm being told that in GA at least there won't even be separate accounts, the wing is going to pool all of the money in one bank account and then track the squadrons balances separately in some type of accounting software.

One account (to rule them all) would be the optimum answer, but many states won't have that option if they willmaintain the unit's ability to make local deposits.

In ILWG, for example, there is no single bank that covers the whole state, so we've been told it will actually be 4-5.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 04:23:43 PM
Another wrinkle - INTEREST.

Why does Wing get to keep my interest?  Many units, including mine, have large sums of money in CDs - we've been told no one will be forced to close a CD early, but once they mature, the money goes to Wing.

How, on earth, would you ever figure out how to divide the interest?  And don't say "equally" among units - I cycle about $20k a year, while some don't even have an FM.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: arajca on November 29, 2006, 04:49:37 PM
In CO, the plan is to divide it proportionally, based on how much money each unit has in the account. How everyone else does/will do it is a good question.

Also, every unit has web access to their account to get statements whenever they want.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: smj58501 on November 29, 2006, 04:17:50 PM
Now that the wing is "tracking" the money (i.e. in control of it), what is to PREVENT them from diverting the money X Sqdn raised for their initiatives to support other wing "priorities" (as determined by the wing)???

A centralized accounting system makes sense... one that guarantees visibility of all funds. A system that removes sqdn control of their checkbook does not, and is a big cause for concern.


I absolutely agree.  I keep hearing that none of this matters, because CAP as a corporation actually owns everything, including the cash, that is acquired by the local squadrons. I don't have a problem with that. I also don't think this program will have any affect the people who make an infrequent or one time donation, but I believe that this program will effectively end any recurring financial support that a squadron may be receiving.

I personally wouldn't care what anyone told me verbally, if I was going to donate money (especially if it was a large sum of money) to support a local organization, and then found out that someone outside that local community was going to control how it was being used, my money would immediately go somewhere else.

CAP is a national organization, but it's lifeblood is in the local communities.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 05:21:55 PM
Nothing prevents by reg, nor does anythng prevent the Wing CC TODAY from ordering you to turn over all funds.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 05:23:41 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 29, 2006, 04:49:37 PM
In CO, the plan is to divide it proportionally, based on how much money each unit has in the account. How everyone else does/will do it is a good question.

Also, every unit has web access to their account to get statements whenever they want.

I'd be curious to know how this work in practice, since the "account" is supposed to a sub-account in quicken, not a physical bank account.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 06:02:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 05:21:55 PM
Nothing prevents by reg, nor does anythng prevent the Wing CC TODAY from ordering you to turn over all funds.

Thats why I'm hoping this gets worked out before to long.  At this point, I'm sorry, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you.

If I was ordered to turn over my squadron funds I would have to see the written guidance that would require it. (This sort of ties back to my last post, if you have someone contributing to you on a recurring basis who discovers that you have surrendered control of those funds, I don't believe you can count on any further donations. If you can at least prove that you didn't have a choice (such as through a legal regulation) then you might possibly have some other options left open for the future.)

Anyway, from what I can tell, there is no legal guidance out there at this time, if there was then you can bet that by now it would be on the front page of the national site.

Also, CAPR 173-1 (which appears to have been implemented in conflict with the procedures in CAPR 5-1) does not require anyone to participate in the WBP. And in my opinion, verbal orders and e-mail are not an acceptable way to direct someone to violate this many regulations when dealing with money. If I'm going to be placed in this position, then someone in authority is going to put their name on paper.

Finally, the Cap Constitution states that all funds "... shall be administered and accounted for as prescribed in the Bylaws and regulations." I can find no exceptions which call for publishing an incomplete regulation to allow for a transition, or for allowing a Wing Commander to order the surrender of funds by dismissing the regulations which are required under the Constitution.

I look at it like this. What would you think If your employer came to you and said that they were no longer going to give you your paycheck. You just needed to submit your request to them anytime you wanted to purchase something and they would cut you a check on the next check day. Oh yeah, we'll take care of your utility payments, car payment, house payment, etc., just make sure that you track everything and let us know if something is late or doesn't get paid, because we're doing this for all our employees. Would you go for it?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 06:12:34 PM
All funds and property of any unit are corporate funds, redeployable, etc., at any time by Wing, Region or NHQ.  This would include money, radios, and property.

I will agree, however, that this is falling into the "regs vs. orders vs. were all one happy family" area, well beyond my paygrade.

It would be interesting to see would would happen if a unit said "no" - understanding that the Unit's CC, and the charter itself could be yanked at the Wing CC's whim.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 06:20:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 04:23:43 PM
Another wrinkle - INTEREST.

Why does Wing get to keep my interest?  Many units, including mine, have large sums of money in CDs - we've been told no one will be forced to close a CD early, but once they mature, the money goes to Wing.

How, on earth, would you ever figure out how to divide the interest?  And don't say "equally" among units - I cycle about $20k a year, while some don't even have an FM.

Wing gets to keep the interest?  I don't know about that for sure.  (Actually, my wing is giving each unit it's fair share.)

The program doesn't require you to close your CDs early.  (At least I'm pretty sure of that... but not 100%... I'll go check... but...If your wing is requiring that... I'd question it.)  Our wing required that our Wing CC and our Wing FO be added to the signature cards for existing CDs.  At the end of their life, they will be turned over to Wing... to manage like they do the rest of our funds.  But, the money isn't Wing's money.  It still belongs to the unit.  (I think they get to be reinvested into additional CDs too.)

How do we determine who gets what interest?

Math my friend.  Math

Basically (the way we are doing it) is doing some math to determine what percentage of the whole account you are.  (I. E.... if the account total is $100,000 and your sub-account is $10,000 your share of the interest would be 10% of whatever is paid out.)

Does that make sense?  (It made sense in my head while we were typing it.)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 06:25:13 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 06:02:58 PM
Also, CAPR 173-1 (which appears to have been implemented in conflict with the procedures in CAPR 5-1) does not require anyone to participate in the WBP. And in my opinion, verbal orders and e-mail are not an acceptable way to direct someone to violate this many regulations when dealing with money. If I'm going to be placed in this position, then someone in authority is going to put their name on paper.

Actually, it is on paper.  Being on a Wing Finance Committee, I have seen it.  There was a letter signed by the National Commander providing Region CCs orders to implement this and select one Wing to start... etc...

Many Wings that were selected were concerned that the directive had been e-mail only.  As such, a signed letter was issued some time ago.  (It was dated sometime in October actually... if I recall correctly...)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 07:06:07 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 07:14:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 06:12:34 PM
It would be interesting to see would would happen if a unit said "no" - understanding that the Unit's CC, and the charter itself could be yanked at the Wing CC's whim.

Well, I hadn't thought about it actually getting to the point of running people off, but it should prove to be interesting if it happens.

From what I see, according to CAPR 20-3, a Wing Commander is authorized to deactivate units for good cause, but he has to state the reason for cause on the deactivation form. I assume the reason for deactivating would have to be for the members failing to follow the verbal order of the Commander. I'm not sure how far the charter issue would go, the PR nightmare that would surely follow something like this would make it a hollow victory for everyone. I'd like to think at this point that there are at least a few people at the national level with the good sense not to let this issue get to this point.

I guess this would mean that the Group CC or Wing CC would have to start suspending members.  CAPR 35-3 lists a variety of reasons that a member can be terminated for, I guess the most logical reason would be for failure to obey rules regulations, and orders of higher authorities. This would also be a wonderful PR move. What are people, members and the public alike, going to think when someone is suspended, and the reason cited is for disobeying an order, even though the order can't be legal since it violates the existing regulations and the CAP Constitution?

Since there's nothing that requires a unit to participate in the WBP, other than the order of the Wing CC of course, this should really open up a hornets nest. CAP would, in effect, be terminating a member for doing exactly what they are supposed to, which is to follow the regulations.

Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 06:25:13 PM
Actually, it is on paper.  Being on a Wing Finance Committee, I have seen it.  There was a letter signed by the National Commander providing Region CCs orders to implement this and select one Wing to start... etc...

Then why can't (or won't) anyone produce it and put a stop to all the questions and rumors? Better yet, 173-1 was being rewritten at that same time, why didn;t someone at national include a simple one liner, like "All CAP squadrons will participate in the Wing Banker Program." That would have been simple, direct, straight to the point, and would have settled everything all at once.


Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 07:06:07 PM
OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

This is not the example I have heard of, or seen posted by anyone here. As I understand it the WBP requires you to surrender control of your funds. You submit a check request to the Wing, who then hopefully cuts your check. But the local squadrons do not retain check writing authority.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 07:06:07 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

I can't say how it works in Colorado, but your understanding isn't how it is done in my wing.

1- Correct

2- Possibly no.  (This is more dependant on how your voucher system is set up.)  If it is under a certain amount, it can be submitted by any member that has already been designated by the Finance Committee as an authorized submitter.  No more than 1 signature is required.  However, if the dollar amount is over $250 (per regs) it must be accompanied by a Finance Committee authorization.  (This would be required locally anyway before cutting a check over that amount already, so it's not something new.)  If your voucher system requires two signatures, then you could be correct.

3- No.  Wing cuts the check.  Then some Wing Staff member(s) (or other authorized member(s)) sign it.  (The Wing Administrator can't sign checks, as it is prohibited by regs.)

4- No.  The Wing mails the check to wherever you asked.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:22:18 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 07:14:19 PM
Then why can't (or won't) anyone produce it and put a stop to all the questions and rumors? Better yet, 173-1 was being rewritten at that same time, why didn;t someone at national include a simple one liner, like "All CAP squadrons will participate in the Wing Banker Program." That would have been simple, direct, straight to the point, and would have settled everything all at once.

I haven't had that problem. Have you asked your Wing CC for a copy? (Through channels of course.)  Complaining on the Internet is one thing.  Making a formal request (in a polite and professional manner) is another.

I actually have a copy right in front of me.  It is dated 21 September 2006.  It was a memo addressed to all Region and Wing CCs. 

I am fairly critical of making sure things toe the line as far as regs go.  Reading this, I can say that it does satisfy my needs as far as meeting the required approval process.  It also mentions that the program is approved by the NEC and NB, and that regulations would be updated over time.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:26:57 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 06:20:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 04:23:43 PM
Another wrinkle - INTEREST.

Why does Wing get to keep my interest?  Many units, including mine, have large sums of money in CDs - we've been told no one will be forced to close a CD early, but once they mature, the money goes to Wing.

How, on earth, would you ever figure out how to divide the interest?  And don't say "equally" among units - I cycle about $20k a year, while some don't even have an FM.

Wing gets to keep the interest?  I don't know about that for sure.  (Actually, my wing is giving each unit it's fair share.)

The program doesn't require you to close your CDs early.  (At least I'm pretty sure of that... but not 100%... I'll go check... but...If your wing is requiring that... I'd question it.)  Our wing required that our Wing CC and our Wing FO be added to the signature cards for existing CDs.  At the end of their life, they will be turned over to Wing... to manage like they do the rest of our funds.  But, the money isn't Wing's money.  It still belongs to the unit.  (I think they get to be reinvested into additional CDs too.)

How do we determine who gets what interest?

Math my friend.  Math

Basically (the way we are doing it) is doing some math to determine what percentage of the whole account you are.  (I. E.... if the account total is $100,000 and your sub-account is $10,000 your share of the interest would be 10% of whatever is paid out.)

Does that make sense?  (It made sense in my head while we were typing it.)

It makes sense on paper from a simple interest standpoint, but not when you get into the compexities about how interest is calculated.

Depending on the date they decide to make the calc, my account may have $500, or it may have $10,000, at least until things change - depends on whether a major event is over yet.

The week before we're flush, the week after, broke. 

Let's just agree its add complexity, but considering that people quit the program or stamp their feet about much smaller issues, can we also agree its a big PITA?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:30:56 PM
Also, I think we touched on this earlier, but if you are going to solicit donations, especially large ones, and then cut off your own nose by in any way insinuating someone else has control of the money, you deserve to be
broke.

Simply tell donors the money will be used for the good of the squadron, with the consent of the appointed local finance committee - the rest is administrivia that willjust cause you issues.

I know this is a knee-jerk reaction by some people who will "get back at wing for "stealing" my money, etc..." but in the end its self-defeating.

As would trying to spend yourself into bankruptcy before the transfer.

We're adults, wrok the program, with whatever local nuances occur, and
deal with speed bumps >IF< they happen.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:26:57 PM
It makes sense on paper from a simple interest standpoint, but not when you get into the compexities about how interest is calculated.

Depending on the date they decide to make the calc, my account may have $500, or it may have $10,000, at least until things change - depends on whether a major event is over yet.

The week before we're flush, the week after, broke. 

Let's just agree its add complexity, but considering that people quit the program or stamp their feet about much smaller issues, can we also agree its a big PITA?

We have several high speed financial folks that figured out exactly how to do it that was considered a good accounting way to do it.  (Not my cup of tea.  I may have a Master's in Business, but Accounting was my weak subject... but... in the end... it does break down to the overall number that the interest is calculated on... and what you have/had in your account.)

It does add complexity, but I think that it adds it up at Wing.  I think the biggest PITA for units is learning the system once it is in place.  After that, it's less work and hassles at the lower units.  (I seriously believe that.  And, trust me... nobody would have believed that I would be saying that four months ago.)

I'm probably not convincing many people.  I heard lots of great things about it in VA before we got it, and I was a naysayer.  Now, I'm pretty happy with the program, and it's still getting bugs worked out.  I guess the way to put it is I'm a convert.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:40:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:30:56 PM
We're adults, wrok the program, with whatever local nuances occur, and
deal with speed bumps >IF< they happen.

Actually, some of the "what if" questions about the program and possible speed bumps coming from some units were about as feasible as Katie Holmes dating me next week.  Possible?  Probably.  Going to happen?  I seriously doubt it.

Yes, like everything, it has it's issues.  But, try it.  You might like it. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 29, 2006, 08:09:30 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 29, 2006, 04:30:31 AM
Yes, only 1 bank account but a certain amount of it will belong to each squadron.  Its really no big deal to track things that way. 

So who gets the interest earned from a squadron's balance....let me guess....the Wing?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 08:22:42 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 29, 2006, 08:09:30 PM
So who gets the interest earned from a squadron's balance....let me guess....the Wing?

As indicated above... my wing is spreading the interest to each unit.

My wing is being very careful with this.  To ensure complete separation of Wing funds from Unit funds, no Wing funds may be kept in the Squadron Account.  In fact, our Wing Account is not even  at the same bank as the subordinate unit account.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 29, 2006, 08:26:54 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:26:57 PM
We have several high speed financial folks that figured out exactly how to do it that was considered a good accounting way to do it. 

As a business manager at my company, it's been my experience that whenever lawyers or accountants get involved, nothing is made easier for the ones who are conducting operations.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 29, 2006, 08:26:54 PM
As a business manager at my company, it's been my experience that whenever lawyers or accountants get involved, nothing is made easier for the ones who are conducting operations.

Unless... you want them to be using the program.  Then, it becomes pretty simple. 

Key people in designing our Wing's implementation are actually from Squadrons that will use the system.  As such, it was designed with ease of use for the unit in mind.  (And, I think they did a great job.)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 09:14:45 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 07:30:56 PM
Also, I think we touched on this earlier, but if you are going to solicit donations, especially large ones, and then cut off your own nose by in any way insinuating someone else has control of the money, you deserve to be
broke.

Simply tell donors the money will be used for the good of the squadron, with the consent of the appointed local finance committee - the rest is administrivia that willjust cause you issues.


Well, I guess that's an option, and in some cases it could possibly be justified, say if you're washing cars or selling donuts, and you advertise it as supporting the CAP.

However, If you approach an individual, a company, a government entity, etc., and request money from them, ethically you would have no option but to:

1) advise them that CAP as a corporation actually owns everything and that ultimately these funds will be the property of the corporation (I believe thats straight from a regulation) and...

2) that even though you are soliciting the money locally, to support either your local squadron or local personnel, that the money will actually be transferred to the Wing Banker, and...

3) that locally you will not be able to physically control, account for the disbursement of, or absoloutly guarantee that you will be able to obligate the funds, because you will have to request them from the Wing Banker, and...

4) they need to be advised that there is the possibility that those funds could, even if it's inadvertantly, be used for something that is not affiliated with the support of either your local squadron or personnel.

I don't believe that there's any need to insinuate anything. Under the WBP the squadrons will not control their funds, they will simply have the ability to request them.

If someone is going to donate funds to you, you have an obligation to enure that they understand how they could be used. Unless there is a National Regulation that spells out what is legitimate, the Wings are going to be free to revise their "Guides" at any point to say whatever they need them to, and unlike a regulation, there won't be a need for any of those pesky reviewing procedures.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 09:31:50 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 09:14:45 PM
Well, I guess that's an option, and in some cases it could possibly be justified, say if you're washing cars or selling donuts, and you advertise it as supporting the CAP.

However, If you approach an individual, a company, a government entity, etc., and request money from them, ethically you would have no option but to:

1) advise them that CAP as a corporation actually owns everything and that ultimately these funds will be the property of the corporation (I believe thats straight from a regulation) and...

2) that even though you are soliciting the money locally, to support either your local squadron or local personnel, that the money will actually be transferred to the Wing Banker, and...

3) that locally you will not be able to physically control, account for the disbursement of, or absoloutly guarantee that you will be able to obligate the funds, because you will have to request them from the Wing Banker, and...

4) they need to be advised that there is the possibility that those funds could, even if it's inadvertantly, be used for something that is not affiliated with the support of either your local squadron or personnel.

I don't believe that there's any need to insinuate anything. Under the WBP the squadrons will not control their funds, they will simply have the ability to request them.

If someone is going to donate funds to you, you have an obligation to enure that they understand how they could be used. Unless there is a National Regulation that spells out what is legitimate, the Wings are going to be free to revise their "Guides" at any point to say whatever they need them to, and unlike a regulation, there won't be a need for any of those pesky reviewing procedures.


Huh?  What?

Yes... every time I donate to the Salvation Army Bell Ringer I have them explain to me how their financial processes work... and ask for them to ensure that all my money is spent in my community... ? You don't have to tell them a darn thing of the sort!  They may request it, and you can tell them what the funds will be intended for.  You can tell them that NHQ can take the money.  (Come on... NHQ isn't going to do that... we all know that would be a death sentence to membership... they know it too...) If you make that statement up front... nobody would ever donate... because you would sound disgruntled...

FYI -

The WBP does not change the control of Squadron funds at all. 

Period.

Again...

The WBP does not change the control of Squadron funds at all. 


It is still their money to do with as they see fit within regulations.  (As it was before.)  You want to throw a $5,000 pizza party for the cadets... you can.  It's still the Squadron's money.  It's not the wings money.  It basically just changes who signs the checks, who holds the checkbook, and the bank.  The Squadron (or Group) Finance Committee still controlls the funds as before. 

Period.

Again...

The Squadron (or Group) Finance Committee still controlls the funds as before. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 10:25:44 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 07:06:07 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2006, 08:13:56 PM
Colorado has implemented it already. So far, it seems to be working well. The wing administrator writes the checks and the authorized signers come in twice a week to sign. The average turn around is about a week, including mailing time. The wing administrator is not one of the signers.

OK, If I understand it correctly:

1.  Unit identifies an expense that must be funded.

2.  Unit submits a voucher with 2 authorized signatures to wing?

3.  Wing writes check, but doesn't sign it.

4.  Wing sends check to unit for signing, and distribution?

I can't say how it works in Colorado, but your understanding isn't how it is done in my wing.

1- Correct

2- Possibly no.  (This is more dependant on how your voucher system is set up.)  If it is under a certain amount, it can be submitted by any member that has already been designated by the Finance Committee as an authorized submitter.  No more than 1 signature is required.  However, if the dollar amount is over $250 (per regs) it must be accompanied by a Finance Committee authorization.  (This would be required locally anyway before cutting a check over that amount already, so it's not something new.)  If your voucher system requires two signatures, then you could be correct.

3- No.  Wing cuts the check.  Then some Wing Staff member(s) (or other authorized member(s)) sign it.  (The Wing Administrator can't sign checks, as it is prohibited by regs.)

4- No.  The Wing mails the check to wherever you asked.

Thanks.  It hasn't worked its way down here yet, and I was wondering how it worked.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 10:42:55 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 29, 2006, 09:14:45 PM...that locally you will not be able to physically control, account for the disbursement of, or absoloutly guarantee that you will be able to obligate the funds, because you will have to request them from the Wing Banker, and...

4) they need to be advised that there is the possibility that those funds could, even if it's inadvertantly, be used for something that is not affiliated with the support of either your local squadron or personnel.

At best this is a mischaracterization of the WBP, at worst just an effort to make it look evil for the sake of some other agenda.

Do you advise potential benefactors that there is a possibility your Finance Manager may steal all the money from the account?  Or that there is a possibility you might use the money to take the cadets to Chuckie Cheese?

Shoot yourself in the foot if you like, but barring malfeasance or program abuse, the local unit has control over the expenditures and disbursements.  Anything less and IG's and maybe even DA's will be involved.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on November 29, 2006, 10:25:44 PM
Thanks.  It hasn't worked its way down here yet, and I was wondering how it worked.

Again, my information is on how my Wing has it set up.  Your wing may have the desire to do it differently.  I'm not sure where the actual mandates from NHQ stop and what my Wing set up begins for all areas.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 29, 2006, 11:17:22 PM
Tanker, I appreciate your insight, honestly I do. I'm just not very happy about this program overall. I very much understand that it is not intended to change anything about how money is spent, but merely the way it is accounted & distributed.

We had something like this in another org I worked with. It was a central educational fund where local chapters could put in savings, but it could only come out for justified educational items, but you could take a no-interest loan against the acct for non-educational items. You parked it there cause it was group invested at much higher return rates, but guaranteed against loss by the national educational endowment. In other words MUCH better than the wing banker program. However we didn't use it much cause the hassle to get at our own savings was a nightmare. We just used it for a couple narrow specific items & to hold long term funds, and it worked great for that. It would have been insane to manage all local funds that way though. I grant that your average CAP Sq per month is spending maybe a few hundred bucks versus 5-10grand, but it'll still be a hassle & put more burden on the people at the bottom in exchange for a possible marginal return that no one's bothered to sell me on as of yet.

I maintain that locally raised & expended funds have no bearing on national/state grants or appropriations, and can easily be accounted as NON-corporate funds to avoid this all together, and in fact in taking them off the page you show a contributor a compilation study of local expenses & state no local income (as there is no local income). I'd be much more comfortable with this if Sqs were allowed to keep a petty cash fund up to that $1500 mark (not actual cash, a local acct) for recurring & day-to-day expenses.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 29, 2006, 11:25:25 PM
Folks, the way this system sounds to me is exaclty how most businesses and government agencies are run.  Each little field office (squadron) doesn't have its own bank account.  When it gets its lighting bill it slaps some accounting codes on it, someone local signs off on it, and they send it up to headquarters where a check is cut.  That same local office has a budget that is part of the master budget for that agency and the lighting bill is subtracted from what is in its budget for that year.

The only difference here is that the squadron has a permanent account rather than an annual budget. 

Yes, this system is vulnerable to mistakes as is anything, but most people are familiar with using something similar in their normal "real" lives. 

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on November 30, 2006, 01:37:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 29, 2006, 10:42:55 PM
At best this is a mischaracterization of the WBP, at worst just an effort to make it look evil for the sake of some other agenda.

I haven't mischaracterized anything. I can agree with the basic premise behind the WBP, I just think it is being implemented in an extraordinarily inept fashion. As for agenda's, I just wanted to try and separate some of the fact from the fiction about this program. I've asked question, wrote messages, and made phone calls, and so far the only information I've got back through official channels is incomplete, inaccurate, or changes from day to day. And that doesn't begin to address the different things I've heard from other members in other wings.

There is plenty of room for disagreement on this subject; however, if National had taken the time to research this plan, to properly write, and then put a good financial regulation through the appropriate vetting process, most of these conversations wouldn't be happening. Basically, I don't have to try and make this program look evil, National has a done a pretty good job of that on their own.

Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 09:31:50 PM
Yes... every time I donate to the Salvation Army Bell Ringer I have them explain to me how their financial processes work... and ask for them to ensure that all my money is spent in my community... ? You don't have to tell them a darn thing of the sort!  They may request it, and you can tell them what the funds will be intended for.  You can tell them that NHQ can take the money.  (Come on... NHQ isn't going to do that... we all know that would be a death sentence to membership... they know it too...) If you make that statement up front... nobody would ever donate... because you would sound disgruntled...

Now I believe that this qualifies as a mischaracterization. What I said was if you're selling donuts or washing cars then ok, but if you approach an individual, a corporation, or a government agency and solicit funds then you should be prepared to fully disclose how they are going to be managed and controlled.

And now we really have a major issue. The mere fact that anyone would be afraid to discuss this program while trying to raise funds speaks for itself. If you think that telling an individual, or a company about this program will cause you to lose a donation then there is something wrong.

We are a national volunteer organization, and now we have a program that apparently makes people feel that they have to hide, or obscure the way we do business just to raise funds. We obviously have a problem.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on November 30, 2006, 03:00:03 AM
Quote from: ADCAPer on November 30, 2006, 01:37:05 AM
Now I believe that this qualifies as a mischaracterization. What I said was if you're selling donuts or washing cars then ok, but if you approach an individual, a corporation, or a government agency and solicit funds then you should be prepared to fully disclose how they are going to be managed and controlled.

And now we really have a major issue. The mere fact that anyone would be afraid to discuss this program while trying to raise funds speaks for itself. If you think that telling an individual, or a company about this program will cause you to lose a donation then there is something wrong.

We are a national volunteer organization, and now we have a program that apparently makes people feel that they have to hide, or obscure the way we do business just to raise funds. We obviously have a problem.

No.  I'm not saying hide anything.  What I'm saying is, we don't have to go and tell them everything if they demand it.  Really, it isn't their business unless we decide to make it their business.  I don't think that we should say... "Hi.  I'm with CAP.  We have all these internal issues and the money could be used for something that we as members here in City X don't like because it could be in City B.  So, would you donate money?"  Guess what, that shoots you in the foot.  (Or cuts off your nose like Bob said.)  Because, if you state it the way you are presenting it, I wouldn't donate money.  Presenting the facts are one thing.  It's all about how you present them.  (I won't donate to a disgruntled person... as I think they'll be taking my money...)

And, not everyone that wants this information may be on the up and up.  I didn't say hide anything if someone asks.  My point was that you don't have to say anything.  It isn't their right to know, which you imply.   There is no law that says (that I am aware of) they have to be given a detailed list of the bad things that can happen with the $5 they are giving you.  Overall... if someone asks... yeah... I'd probably answer their questions.  It is the right thing to do.  But, don't paint a black sky when it is actually fairly sunny.

And, in the 19 years I've been in CAP... how many times have I seen NHQ take my money?  None!  (I've only seen money taken from those people being naughty... such as Fraud.)

CAP as a corporation decides when we apply for things that make us disclose our procedures/funds if it is in our interest to disclose that information.  Some grants require this information.  Face it, it's a corporate type decision when playing with the big boys.  (That's one of the reasons fundraisers must be approved by the Wing CC... because he is a corporate officer!)

And, my question is... if this program makes people think they have something to hide... then... why are the worried?  Is someone going to catch them skimming money or something?  I have no problem with Wing HQ handling all my unit's money.

In all honesty, your posts are coming off as we should tell the public things because you aren't happy with something.  You're saying NHQ has made this program evil.  Really?  You seem to be making it evil.  Are you currently working with the program? 

I am, and it's a darn good one.  And, the way NHQ worked with my wing to get this going... they are far from inept.  Have you worked with them on this?  If not... how can you make such an all encompassing statement?  (Sure... there could be some things done better... but... hindsight is always 20/20.  But inept?  I completely disagree.)

You've already made some comments which show that you are not educated about the program.  (Comments like those are what fuel incorrect rumors mind you.  Instead of making incorrect disgruntled statements, or assuming things... why not ask?)

You seem to make accusations that NHQ is deliberately hiding information.  They've published new regs, and information has been distributed to wings.  (Especially those implementing this.)  So, NHQ doesn't have all the information on the website.  They might have a good reason for it that we're not privy to.  (Just because you pay your annual dues, doesn't mean you get to be in on all the decisions made by the higher-ups. That's the way both the Military and Corporations work.)

Every time my wing has asked NHQ for information, we've received it.  Every time I've asked my Wing CC or Wing FO for information, they've passed it on.

I don't see anyone hiding anything.  (Not being on the website doesn't equal hidden.)  Have you made a formal request to your Wing CC through channels to get your questions answered?

As a person that has been around other non-profits... guess what... every chapter's money technically belongs to the "corporation"... unless their structure allows them to be formed as their own corporation.  (It's that whole tax/legal thing... the IRS and Government seem to get pickey about it.)
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: carnold1836 on November 30, 2006, 03:02:43 AM
I like DNalls concept of having a petty cash account of no more than $1500 for each sqdn. Reason is simple, sometimes I can't wait for a couple of weeks to get reimbursed for writing a check for $150.00 to pay for renting tables for a wing function at the last minute because I'm the only one that has their wallet on them. I live pay check to paycheck sometimes and I can't be laying out that kind of cash at the drop of a hat. If the sqdn has a petty cash account they can reimburse me then get reimbursement from their funds in the WGbank a couple of weeks later. Keep in mind I live in Austin, Texas, it's a minimum of 3 hours to wing HQ or atleast where the individuals controlling that stuff are.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 30, 2006, 03:15:29 AM
I'm not sure my squadron has ever had much more than $1,500 in the its bank account for very long over the last 5-10 years.  I've got no clue if we're typical n that or not, but it would really defeat the purpose of the whole system if we could exclude that much from the Wing system. 

Anyway, I wouldn't call $1,500 petty cash.  Petty cash is for taking care of tiny little items not enough to pay for a new engine for your car.  I could go up to $100. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: carnold1836 on November 30, 2006, 03:35:30 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 30, 2006, 03:15:29 AM
Anyway, I wouldn't call $1,500 petty cash.  Petty cash is for taking care of tiny little items not enough to pay for a new engine for your car.  I could go up to $100. 

But there again $100 doesn't solve my problem, maybe $500.00 then could be an amount that you could actually get something done with. $100 just doesn't seem like a lot to get day to day stuff done.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 30, 2006, 03:53:35 AM
Quote from: BlackKnight on November 27, 2006, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
Barring malfeasance, Wing bankers will have no more (or less) say about how the money is spent then they do today.
Not true in GAWG.  Wing approval will be required for squadron expenditures above a certain amount. Currently set at $1500, but that can be changed with a memo since it's not defined in regs.
I took the 1500 amount from here, I'm sure that policy means individuals transactions, but that's fine. Remember the point of this policy is NOT to seize control of Sq bank accts, but rather to create a well-documented accounting system. Therefore, if you have to document the expenditure locally to get it reimbursed from the Wg controlled acct, then you will do so & they'll have the records they need. If almost no Sq has over $1500 then that's fine too cause the amounts are so small - in terms of someone looking at a hundred grand grant - that they won't bear on the accounting situation. There's a lot of ways to do things. You could turn in a monthly or quarterly operating budget ot have expenditures pre-approved & then have a small petty cash fund for things that crop up. What I really don't like about this is that the Wg actually takes full control. They don't need to gatekeep the checks to get records for accounting, we could have all moved our accts to some big chain & granted Wg read access to the records, or even made them an additional signer for that matter, but still preserve the local signers. It's just not realistic what they're trying to do here. Maybe in NatCap Wg with their 7 Sqs or something, but my Gp commanded by a Major is bigger has more members & aircraft than most wings & is the size of the state of Iowa. It's gonna get out of control at some point somewhere, and it's going to get there fast & screw people on the ground

...AGAIN, I have yet to be sold on the real return we stand to gain as an organization, not to mention what I might feel locally, in exchange for this risk I'm being forced to assume. That's BAD leadership. You never give an order unless you are forced to. You ALWAYS explain to your subordinates & build trust so that in that rare emergency case where you do have to order an action, they KNOW it's in the best interest of the org & that they won't burn you for nothing. BAD BAD BAD. I don't care if you're President, a four-star general, or a cub scout leader, you ALWAYS always follow this & the other core principles of leadership or you don't deserve the job & no one will ever respect or listen to anything you ever say, even if they're bound by law.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 30, 2006, 04:06:20 AM
I work for an organization that has about as many employees as there are CAP members in my Wing.  The budget for this organization is probably 500 times that of the CAP Wing.  The budget for my part of the organization is probably 50-75 times as big as the CAP Wing and almost all the accounting is done by one person.  Our organization handles the banking essentially the same way as what CAP is doing and it works fine. 

I have an extremely hard time believing that there would need to be more than a couple of checks a day (if not a week) that would have to be cut for squadrons.  Heck, when I was involved with this at my squadron we probably wrote 5-10 checks a year, if that.  So, I'm fairly confident that this heavy workload can be accomplished without too much problem.  Now, for the larger Wings it will be more of an issue, but hey, thats what we're paying all those new Wing employees we got this year to do, right? 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 30, 2006, 04:21:52 AM
TankerT,

I don't think any one is saying that NHQ is evil, or that this is some kind of an evil plan hatched to get the squadron's money.  What I see is people getting a little tired of "the corporation" putting more and more of a burden on the membership on an increasingly frequent basis.

All of us PAY dues to be members of CAP because we have a desire to help our country/community, or feel we have something to offer that can help CAP and the USAF perform the mission.  What we get for our dues and efforts is an increasing amount of administrative work to do IN ADDITION to meeting, planning, training, and actually performing our missions.  In order to do all of these, a lot of time and quite a bit of our OWN money is spent on supplies and equipment that the "corporation" doesn't provide.  We also get uniform changes on a quarterly basis that cost money out of our own pockets.  We work missions that may take us months to get reimbursed for, providing we made sure and followed the letter of the regulations to insure we get paid (were corporate vehicles available, did you fill up on the day of the mission even though it was 0300 and all you really wanted to do was go to bed, did the proper paperwork get submitted in time, and to the proper person, etc., etc, etc.).

We also see CAP contracting with a commercial company to supply items that often can't be purchased anywhere else, and these items are now two or three times more than they should be, and the "corporation" is profitting from these sales, instead of operating a member run store that only covers the cost of operations.

In order to fund all of these things that we need to do but don't get any help with from the AF or CAP, we (the squadrons) spend additional time working to raise money.  Now NHQ says that in order to help the "corporation" with getting funds that won't likely ever be sent down to the squadrons, we need to send our money to them to administer.

I don't think there is any evil plan, but I certainly think that folks have a right to be skeptical.

In the end, we don't have to like it,we only have to do it.  However, we don't have to go to a lot of trouble raise squadron funds at all.  I'm not saying the program isn't well thought out, but most things designed by large companies and government bureaucracies aren't the most user friendly and efficient things.  If NHQ doesn't think this thing through and involve the membership all along, they may end up with more of a problem than they started with.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: carnold1836 on November 30, 2006, 04:28:08 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 30, 2006, 04:06:20 AM
Heck, when I was involved with this at my squadron we probably wrote 5-10 checks a year, if that.

Did your sqdn have a van? If yes how was the fuel purchased?
Did your sqdn host events such as ALS or FTXs? If yes how was the food purchased?
Did your sqdn ever need office supplies? If yes how did that get purchased?

My sqdn has/does all of these things and it counts on the members to make those purchases and get reimbursed in a time frame no longer than 6 days. Also I'm not sure I like the idea of having to send to wing the $250.00 a month my sqdn gets from the generosity of individuals that have their $125.00 gift matched by their employer. Or the several thousand dollar grant my sqdn received or the large cash donation that was given to us because of what OUR sqdn does for the LOCAL community.

I know it is supposed to still be our money, I just don't like not having control of it. And from what it looks like the sqdn won't have direct control of their money any more. Whose to say the wing FM won't authorize a request for reimbursement because it doesn't seem to be a legitimate expenditure in his/her eyes, even when it is completely legitimate? I don't like it, my finance officer doesn't like it and I know many others in my group don't like it. But we will live by it if that is what is sent down from wing, we just won't like it.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 30, 2006, 04:37:04 AM
River,
I think a more typical Sq writes maybe 3-5 checks a month on bills, could be significantly higher than that during an activity (how many of those won't happen now because of the hassle). I don't doubt that your company can do it with a full time professional accountant/financial manager & the right infrastructure, plus everyone being together in one place versus geographically seperated by hundreds of miles which creates more of the us-vs-them attitude. For CAP you're going to be talking about a volunteer with probably not the best background for the work & they'll likely be saddled with other stuff too & also not have as much authority as the guy you're talking about. It's going to be a problem man, trust me on this, it's way too far away from teh KISS method w/ no good reason for being there & minimal benefit, plus there's a couple other ways they could have VERY easily accomplished their objectives w/o remotely this much hassle.

ELT,
yeah that's at least a part of it. We see XYZ problems, pattern of behavior, a whole LOT of actions taken that are very obviously not thought thru & end up making everyone look stupid, then they roll this pain in the butt thing down like I don't already have enough problems holding things together with my own two hands (and every bit of effort from my staff) just to keep our heads up & moving forward at all, and when there's MANY examples from other non-profits (from which we hire NHQ staff) of how to deal with this in a MUCH LESS intrusive way to accomplish the stated goals w/ MUCH less difficulty. That's not even amateur, that's somewhere out beyond incompetent. We bust out butts down here as members & pay out the ass to keep things going, and I tell ya I haven't had fun in CAP in a lot of years, I care about the kids I can help & screw the BS. That's not even mentioning the jacked up retention stuation & the extent to which policies like this impact it, nor the way good people are being priced out of the opportunity to serve with BAD BAD BAD management. I think I've earned the right to have expectations of our leaders to step up in their jobs to the same extent I do in my jobs, and maybe that they should work to support me by making my job eaiser to do so I can push further out. So far, not every single thing, but the majority of what comes down is the complete opposite of that, & really steals a chunck of your soul every time your disappointed again, you can almost feel it drain out of you sometimes. It sucks man, and I don't like it one bit. I want people that will step up & lead like never before, just like I try to do with my people.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 30, 2006, 04:48:00 AM
I blew off the steam now and feel a bit better.  Like I said, if that's the policy, I'll salute and follow orders whether I like it or not.  We'll probably get that new DF unit we've been wanting, and updating our maps though before we turn in the money.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: DNall on November 30, 2006, 04:55:12 AM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 30, 2006, 04:48:00 AM
I blew off the steam now and feel a bit better.  Like I said, if that's the policy, I'll salute and follow orders whether I like it or not. 
Second... just hope they take note of the trend & make some changes before the NEXT thing I have to pile on this camel's back.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: fyrfitrmedic on November 30, 2006, 11:03:25 AM
 What little I've seen of this 'improvement' up-close-and-personal has left me a little underwhelmed thus far.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: capchiro on November 30, 2006, 12:31:37 PM
It would appear to me that the people that are unhappy or questioning this are probably the squadron commanders and squadron finance people.  We do need some type of slush fund or ability to run day to day business, such as refilling cake machine, giving change, etc.  It is wrong for National and Wing to assume or require the local commander to use his personal funds and wait forr reimbursement.  There is also the question fo weekly or monthly dues.  What does the commander/finance person do with a handle full of change or small bills that are turned in weekly for dues by the cadets, etc.?  Do we make weekly deposits to wing?  Do we carry the money around for the rest of the week until we can get to the bank of their choice?  Do we deposit the cash in our own accounts and write Wing a check from our accounts to  cover the cash amount?  the members handling the money on a day to day basis are going to be more inconvenienced by this than they know.  Someone also mentioned not telling donators where their money was going or at least not making a big deal out of it.  some of the grant forms we fill out ask very detailed questions and want the money kept in the local community (bank) and used in the local community.  there has been some talk that if wing does anything to the money without our permission, they will be confronted with IG's, DA's, etc.  Considering all they have to do is change a memo and that will change the status of their/our control, it appears problematic.  I think a few people trusted Enron also and see what happened.  If a wing is $30,000.00 in the hole and has lost $48,000.00 worth of communications equipment, why should they be trusted?  And why aren't heads rolling over that?  As usual, just my opinion, but for the record, I am 100% CAP and have 30 years in.  This doesn't mean that I can't question what I consider to be poor decisions.  There is also the question of legality of this matter.  If I recall correctly, before a regulation can be changed, there is supposed to be a 60 day period for members to consider and respond to the matter.  I don't believe that this happened in the immediate situation.  Again, we are asked to trust a situation, wherein proper procedures have been ignored or not followed.  Why wouldn't this arouse suspicion and questions?  A healthy suspicion and need for solid regulations are part of being a good leader in my opinion.  Wing is here to support the squadrons and not the other way around.  National and wing should have some good hard regulations for the commanders to hang their hats on and they just aren't there.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: arajca on November 30, 2006, 02:23:17 PM
Before wing cuts a check from a squadron account, they need paperwork. Most units already use some kind of reimbursement request form that requires the commander's signature at a minimum. Without this form, wing cannot legally cut the check. If wing is doing so, you have bigger problems than the wing bank.

Deposits can be made as frequently as the unit wants. One principle in choosing a large, state-wide (where possible) bank is the availability of local branches for deposits. If you want to make a deposit every day, go for it.

As for turnaround, I haven't had to use it personally, but member I have talked to have been favorably impressed. Form signed Monday night (meeting night). Sent to wing Tuesday. Members have reported receiving their checks by Friday or Monday at the latest. those who have longer turnarounds delayed sending in the request. Admittedly, it's still not as fast as same night, but it's not the three month period everyone had been fearing.

With some planning, checks can be cut in advance, i.e. holiday party food. Again, based on my experience with the information that has been based down the chain.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on November 30, 2006, 04:00:05 PM
Quote from: capchiro on November 30, 2006, 12:31:37 PM
It would appear to me that the people that are unhappy or questioning this are probably the squadron commanders and squadron finance people.  We do need some type of slush fund or ability to run day to day business, such as refilling cake machine, giving change, etc. 

Quote from: capchiro on November 30, 2006, 12:31:37 PM
Do we carry the money around for the rest of the week until we can get to the bank of their choice?  Do we deposit the cash in our own accounts and write Wing a check from our accounts to  cover the cash amount?  the members handling the money on a day to day basis are going to be more inconvenienced by this than they know.

While NHQ is doing this to make the Corporation's books as a whole more transparent, I believe it will probably have the opposite effect.  While the "official" finances will be visible, I think the inconvenience of this program, or at least the suspicion of inconvenience, will cause folks to keep "off the books" funds for day-to-day purchases, thereby having the opposite of the desired effect.

If you throw up road blocks in the way of people trying to do their job, they will find away around them.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on November 30, 2006, 11:25:12 PM
QuoteDid your sqdn have a van? If yes how was the fuel purchased?
Wing credit card.  On rare occassions during missions fuel was bought by individuals reimbursed by wing. 

QuoteDid your sqdn host events such as ALS or FTXs? If yes how was the food purchased?
Did your sqdn ever need office supplies? If yes how did that get purchased?
Member bought stuff and squadron reimbursed via check. 
Ours was a very active squadron too. 

Quoteeveryone being together in one place versus geographically seperated by hundreds of miles which creates more of the us-vs-them attitude.
The staff for my part of the org is about 8 people, more than 100 are scattered out across the state, many in about 10 regional offices.  Extremely equivalent to CAP. 

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: smj58501 on November 30, 2006, 11:54:42 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on November 30, 2006, 04:00:05 PM
Quote from: capchiro on November 30, 2006, 12:31:37 PM
It would appear to me that the people that are unhappy or questioning this are probably the squadron commanders and squadron finance people.  We do need some type of slush fund or ability to run day to day business, such as refilling cake machine, giving change, etc. 

Quote from: capchiro on November 30, 2006, 12:31:37 PM
Do we carry the money around for the rest of the week until we can get to the bank of their choice?  Do we deposit the cash in our own accounts and write Wing a check from our accounts to  cover the cash amount?  the members handling the money on a day to day basis are going to be more inconvenienced by this than they know.

While NHQ is doing this to make the Corporation's books as a whole more transparent, I believe it will probably have the opposite effect.  While the "official" finances will be visible, I think the inconvenience of this program, or at least the suspicion of inconvenience, will cause folks to keep "off the books" funds for day-to-day purchases, thereby having the opposite of the desired effect.

If you throw up road blocks in the way of people trying to do their job, they will find away around them.



I find it refreshing to see this many posts on a topic that does not revolve around uniforms.  :)

Seriously, this is good discussion. The above post spells out what I feel are the key points of the issue at hand.

I don't think anyone disagrees that better visability was needed of all the various accounts floating around "out there". That is what this new program should have been limited to, however. In other words, WHYdoes the wing NEED to control the checkbook in order to establish the visibility levels sought? There are other ways to address the visibility issue without going to this level. The establishment of the "one checkbook" process is an overreaction to the stated problem at hand.... and in the spirit of "take care of the member" and/or "get 'er done", the road block detours as detailed above will undoubtedly occur if this indeed is fielded across the board. We could end up back where we started, or the situation could end up worse than it is now.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on December 01, 2006, 03:01:34 AM
Quote from: TankerT on November 30, 2006, 03:00:03 AM
No.  I'm not saying hide anything.  What I'm saying is, we don't have to go and tell them everything if they demand it.  Really, it isn't their business unless we decide to make it their business.  I don't think that we should say... "Hi.  I'm with CAP.  We have all these internal issues and the money could be used for something that we as members here in City X don't like because it could be in City B.  So, would you donate money?"  Guess what, that shoots you in the foot.  (Or cuts off your nose like Bob said.)  Because, if you state it the way you are presenting it, I wouldn't donate money.  Presenting the facts are one thing.  It's all about how you present them.  (I won't donate to a disgruntled person... as I think they'll be taking my money...)


I'm obviously presenting my point of view on this just as poorly as National has presented the WBP. For what it's worth, I'm as educated about this program as anyone is. I would love to know more about it, but so far the only thing I've managed to get is people running the other way when I start asking questions. And that includes people all the way up to National. And yes, I did ask very nicely and politely. Let me say again, I am not opposed to the concept that is at work here, I am simply amazed at how poorly this program has been implemented.

My point is that there should never be a reason that anyone would have a problem with discussing their financial program, or its controls with a potential donor. For the record, I am not talking about a $5.00 or even a $200.00 donation. I am talking about situations where a local squadron approaches a local individual, business, or government agency and solicits funds for their local people, their local programs, or to support their local people in a CAP activity. There may not be many of them, but there are squadrons out here who receive thousands of dollars each year from their local community. I'm sure they realize that CAP is a national organization, but in their minds they are donating money, sometimes in significant amounts, with the expectation that it is going to be used in their local area, for their local people.

As soon as these people, companies, government agencies, find out that their money is going to be moved out of the local area, and out of the control of the local people, you can bet that the next time you go ask for help, it isn't going to be there. Am I wrong? There is a reason this thread is titled Georgia, I was hoping that someone would be speaking out by now so I could try and learn a little more.

My point is that you can, and most likely will be asked about your financial controls. I would say it's a highly possible from an individual or a business, and I guarantee it will happen from a government agency, especially if the donation involves tax dollars, meaning money which is appropriated from the local citizens. You may be right, legally you may not have to tell anyone anything, but ethically, you are asking for trouble if you don't.

The point that NHQ has never taken money from a local squadron is irrelevant. For what it's worth, I don't think there will be a problem with NHQ trying to confiscate any local squadron funds. I don't have the same feeling about the Wings. Until the implementation of WBP there was no easy way for them to get at squadron funds.  Now, that won't be a problem. They are going to already have them, and the local squadrons are going to have to request them. Unless, and until there is some official regulatory guidance from National the Wings can simply re-write their "Guide" and say whatever they want, because there's nothing to stop them. Whats to stop them from implementing a Monthly "Service Charge"?

Am I working with the program? Unfortunately I am right in the middle of it. I'm glad things are going well at your location. Is it a good program? If it's working well at your location, great. I hope you manage to keep good, ethical people over the program at your wing level, because they are working under guidance that could change tomorrow. Unfortunately, not everyone who is being told that they are going to have to surrender all their funds is comfortable with this program, but that doesn't mean that we aren't allowed to question the decisions that are being made.

Personally, at this point, I can't trust National to follow the CAP Constitution or their own regulations, why should I trust them with my squadron's funds?
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: RiverAux on December 01, 2006, 04:02:22 AM
QuoteMy point is that you can, and most likely will be asked about your financial controls. I would say it's a highly possible from an individual or a business, and I guarantee it will happen from a government agency, especially if the donation involves tax dollars, meaning money which is appropriated from the local citizens. You may be right, legally you may not have to tell anyone anything, but ethically, you are asking for trouble if you don't.

And I think you will be better off saying the local funds are tracked as part of a national system that (hopefully) will receive the highest favorable audit rating.  If I was at all concerned about how the finances are run by the unit I want to give money too that would make a much better impression on me than "Well, Dave keeps the checkbook and we have a coffee can with a few hundred dollars in the back room". 

Basically we are dramatically improving the controls over CAP funds to make it more difficult for fraud, waste, and abuse to happen at the local level.  How can this not make them feel better? 

QuoteUntil the implementation of WBP there was no easy way for them to get at squadron funds.
Wings have always had the right to them and I've never heard of it being exercised. 
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on December 01, 2006, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 30, 2006, 03:00:03 AM
So, NHQ doesn't have all the information on the website.  They might have a good reason for it that we're not privy to.

From the CAP National Web Site: CAP/CC Letter, Changes to CAPR 5-4, Publications and Blank Forms Management

1. As we move toward achieving the Civil Air Patrol National Board goal of becoming a paperless organization, we are implementing the following new operating procedures.

a. The CAP web site is the official source for CAP National Headquarters numbered regulations, manuals, pamphlets and forms. These publications and forms are available at http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5211. Use of this "official source" assures access to the most current policy and information.

Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ELTHunter on December 01, 2006, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on December 01, 2006, 06:49:37 PM
Quote from: TankerT on November 30, 2006, 03:00:03 AM
So, NHQ doesn't have all the information on the website.  They might have a good reason for it that we're not privy to.

From the CAP National Web Site: CAP/CC Letter, Changes to CAPR 5-4, Publications and Blank Forms Management

1. As we move toward achieving the Civil Air Patrol National Board goal of becoming a paperless organization, we are implementing the following new operating procedures.

a. The CAP web site is the official source for CAP National Headquarters numbered regulations, manuals, pamphlets and forms. These publications and forms are available at http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5211. Use of this "official source" assures access to the most current policy and information.



This could be a separate thread, but here is another example of NHQ putting more burden on the members and local units, although I'm sure it's an unintended consequence of going paperless.  Units that do not have internet access at their meeting place need a hard copy of the regulations and manuals.  In preparation for our unit SUI, we audited our regulations to make sure we were all up to date.  I had to print out several copies of the regs from the net.  I was able to do this at work, which is a good thing, because it required quite a bit of paper and ink.  So the cost of publishing the regulations now has to be borne by either the unit or the members themselves.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on December 01, 2006, 07:14:39 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 01, 2006, 06:57:51 PM
This could be a separate thread, but here is another example of NHQ putting more burden on the members and local units, although I'm sure it's an unintended consequence of going paperless.  Units that do not have internet access at their meeting place need a hard copy of the regulations and manuals.  In preparation for our unit SUI, we audited our regulations to make sure we were all up to date.  I had to print out several copies of the regs from the net.  I was able to do this at work, which is a good thing, because it required quite a bit of paper and ink.  So the cost of publishing the regulations now has to be borne by either the unit or the members themselves.


Not completely on target for this thread, but it just adds to my general sentiment about how National is running things.  Can you guess which regulation this statement is from?

"...Supplements and waivers are not authorized, except as specifically noted, or when approved by National Headquarters."

I'll give you one clue; it is unfortunately not from a financial regulation!   ???
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: TankerT on December 01, 2006, 07:19:27 PM
I wanted to comment on this topic, as I think many people will ignore what I have to say about the program, and how well it has been implemented from my point of view. 

I seriously think that most of the strife is due to people complaining as their chain of command hasn't told them anything.  I think that probably says more about their Wing's chain of command than anything.  My Wing CC, Office Manager and FO have been very helpful when dealing with this topic.

(And, yes, I have been burned by an unethical person when he asked on our general financial process worked.  He managed to take that information, twist it, and get an organization that donated to us annually to change their donations to his organization.  There was a happy ending to this on our part, but that's a long and irritating story.  That's why I'm not saying don't tell people, I'm saying we should be careful before doing so.)

Overall, NHQ has been very helpful, and this program (in my wing) is fairly easy to use.  Yes, it may create some work/issues, but it also removes a lot of headaches at the same time.  Overall, I think it is an improvement. 

All arguments about how regulations work and whatnot, I see the big picture on this.  1- It helps all of us by allowing NHQ to apply for other grants that we would not normally be eligible for. 2- It takes away a lot of the reporting/paperwork requirements from the units.  (Cripes... they're taking away a lot here folks... it's a nice change there... having them remove some requirements from the Squadron for once!)

If anyone has any specific questions, please PM me.  I'd be happy to answer them.  Otherwise, I won't be reading this tread anymore as I think some people are on it just to complain, and I don't need to really waste my time or be stressed about this.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: ADCAPer on December 02, 2006, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: TankerT on December 01, 2006, 07:19:27 PM
I seriously think that most of the strife is due to people complaining as their chain of command hasn't told them anything.  I think that probably says more about their Wing's chain of command than anything.

I absolutely agree, however, what can they realistically tell you? Because of the way that National has attempted to implement this plan, they have placed the wing staffers in a position where they can tell you nothing that is definitive, because there is no legal guidance out there? At this point their only option is to say "You're going to do it because the Wing CC says so."

This appears to be the source of about 90% of the problems that seem to be occurring at the local levels. There is no one who can answer a question and then back it up in writing, so they are resorting to saying "because I said so!" Well, that's rarely a good answer, and when people are raising ethical and legal questions it does nothing but create resistance.

Quote from: TankerT on December 01, 2006, 07:19:27 PM
That's why I'm not saying don't tell people, I'm saying we should be careful before doing so.)

My point is that we are representing a National organization. If I'm going to ask someone for thousands of dollars to support my local squadron, I should not ever have to worry about being careful when talking to them about how those funds are going to be controlled. Unfortunately, in my experience anyway, when you deal with people on a local level, especially when it involves large sums of money, they want to know their contribution is going to be used in their local area. Right now, I can't guarantee that they would be, because CAP as a corporation owns everything, and now you no longer have the physical control of your funds, or the direct authority to obligate them, you can only "request" them and trust the wing to cut the check.

Quote from: TankerT on December 01, 2006, 07:19:27 PM
All arguments about how regulations work and whatnot, I see the big picture on this.  1- It helps all of us by allowing NHQ to apply for other grants that we would not normally be eligible for.

This may be great for National, and if they can make it work then great, however I doubt that there will be enough of these funds trickling down to the local level to make up for what is going to be lost.
Title: Re: Georgia Wing Banking
Post by: Eclipse on December 02, 2006, 02:54:54 PM
Quote from: ADCAPer on December 02, 2006, 02:34:45 PM
This may be great for National, and if they can make it work then great, however I doubt that there will be enough of these funds trickling down to the local level to make up for what is going to be lost.


Another bull’s-eye!

Everything, I mean EVERYTHING, NHQ decides should be filtered through the eyes of the members at the unit level.

The average member has a vague idea we've got "planes-n-stuff", but KNOWS about local donations and bureaucracy.

Its the one extra form, or hassle in getting a bill paid that may be the reason we lose a member who has “almost had it”,
or a streamlined process that saves one.

Anything that makes the rank-and-file members’ life harder / more expensive / less fun is a retention issue.