CAP Grey Shoulder Marks...Did you know?

[Major Carrales]

Many people have been expressing their desire to wear Blue shoulder marks with an embroidered "CAP" letters and their grade.  This was the standard some 20-15 years ago or so.

After that the CAP went through maroon ones and finally to the familiar grey ones worn now.

I recently spoke with General Richard L. Anderson, former CAP National commander and recently retired USAF Colonel.  He told me of several things that are MYTHS, that are often treated as FACT on CAPTALK and other CAP FORUMS...


MYTH: Maroon Shoulder boards were a punishment for some former National Commander who self-promoted.

FACT: The USAF desired CAP to look more distinctive, Maroon was chosen because it was an attempt to harken back to the Red-Epaulet days of the Second World War.  Red looked decent on khaki, however, it looks rather out of place on a blue uniform.

When this proved universally unpopular, Gen Anderson told me that grey CAP epaulets were presented.  These are meant to reflect the grey of the Civil Air Patrol national flag, much as the USAF blue ones reflect that blue of the USAF colors.  General Anderson pointed out that he had discussed the matter with then General Fogleman.

Supporting Matters: If the USAF really was put out by a 2 star National Commander then why 1) was that commander allowed to continue to hold the rank as documented and 2) why did they allow the 2-Star in more recent years.

[Flying Pig]

Thanks for this.  This is a huge urban legend.

[dwb]

You can keep your facts, I prefer the more scandalous version.  Who doesn't like a little hearsay in their life?

[Stonewall]

You can keep your facts, I prefer the more scandalous version.  Who doesn't like a little hearsay in their life?

Yeah, I'm with Dan.  Rich's story is just plain boring.  (good guy, he bought me lunch in the Pentagon when he was CC and I happened to see him headed to a meeting with the AF Chief of Staff)

Besides, I like the story (reason for the switch) about the CAP senior who thew stars on his epaulets and booked the officers club for his daughter's wedding... 

[PaulR]

I left the CAP just before the transition to the Maroon Shoulder boards.   

To be perfectly honest, I like the current gray ones a lot.  They look good on the uniform while providing a distinct difference with the regular Air Force.

Thanks for the explaination on the changes.  I always thought it was a sort of punative(the maroon boards) action myself.  How long were they used?  I bet that they would be pretty rare collectors items today!

[Stonewall]

How long were they used? 

I want to say between 1990 and 1995.  I remember seeing them for the first time while I was still a cadet until 1991.  Then, in 1995, while the National Boards were in DC, they began selling them through the Bookstore at the Board.

[swamprat86]

I still have my 1Lt ones.  I think they were from about 90-91 til around 95 as well.  I only wore them until I was a Capt.

[ColonelJack]

The maroon shoulder loops were preceded by a narrower maroon band that was to loop around the service coat epaulet.  It was edged in silver and had a silver "CAP" embroidered in the center.  I have a set of those as well as my old "berry board" major and lieutenant colonel leaves.  They're prized possessions, really, since the gray loops were incoming at about the time I was outgoing.

Jack

[vento]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

[notaNCO forever]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

I'd like to see them to I'd like to know if they are as bad as people say they were.

[Eclipse]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

The wrap-around:



The berry boards:


On a service coat:


Source:  http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=CAP_Uniform_History

General Anderson may well be much closer to this than I will ever be, but I still tend to believe that the reason the USAF wanted us to be more "distinctive" is the Harwell situation.  There doesn't seem to be anything else significant around that time happening to CAP or the USAF that would cause such a shift in the relationship.

[notaNCO forever]

 They don't look as bad as I envisioned. The reason I was told for the change in color had nothing to do with the actual shoulder marks.

[swamprat86]

The images don't do them justice.  They were not that dark in real life.  If they were that dark, it probably wouldn't have beena s bad.

[NEBoom]

I am too new to CAP and have never seen a "Maroon" epaulet. Is there a picture somewhere for the curious to take a look?

The wrap-around:

The "wrap-around" loop was very short lived.  I only recall seeing it worn once.  I didn't get around to purchasing them before they were discontinued, apparently very few did.  The metal rank insignia was still worn, and the loop went on the service coat epaulet in the space between the rank and the button up by the shoulder.  I didn't think it looked too good.

We were frequently confused with the Salvation Army back in those days.  All in all, I like today's grey shoulder marks (especially on the coat) much better.

[Major Carrales]

General Anderson may well be much closer to this than I will ever be, but I still tend to believe that the reason the USAF wanted us to be more "distinctive" is the Harwell situation.  There doesn't seem to be anything else significant around that time happening to CAP or the USAF that would cause such a shift in the relationship.

General Anderson also agreed that CAP Officers and Cadets should stop looking at minor uniform changes as some sort of barometer for CAP/USAF relations.

There will always be a distinction between CAP and USAF uniforms, the USAF will always have say over the wear of that uniform and the USAF will always use that authority to insure that the CAP version looks more like a CAP uniform than is looks like a USAF one.

[Smithsonia]

Everybody has taken all the cool colors. I think we've got pink, deep purple, orange, and loud greens left... so as not to be confused with any other branch of any military service foreign or domestic from modern times or history. So it seems to me gray... is OK. Besides it matches my hair.

[Major Carrales]

Everybody has taken all the cool colors. I think we've got pink, deep purple, orange, and loud greens left... so as not to be confused with any other branch of any military service foreign or domestic from modern times or history. So it seems to me gray... is OK. Besides it matches my hair.

Grey is good, I think it is high time we all embraced them as "ours."  Grey and blue and pleasing to the eye and very much are the contemporary colors associated with CAP.  Only the historical RED would have a place.  I don't see them as vaible on blues.

[ltcmark]

I was sitting in the audience of the National Board meeting when Harwell made the announcement that he was getting promoted to Major General.  They immediately called the USAF Lieutenant General that was there, front and center to do the promotion.   (Sorry, I do not recall the Lt Gen's name).  You could tell by the look on his face he was shocked and he was not happy.  When the ceremony was over the Lt Gen did not even sit down.  He proceeded off the stage and he was met by his entourage at the bottom of the stage. 

This happened before cell phones were available, but they did have the bag phones.  There was a flurry of phone calls and then they quickly left the session.  I still remember looking at the Lt Gen as he walked out.  He was P O'ed.... I also remember that the Air Force presence was limited for the rest of the Boards.

After talking with my aunt, who used to be the personal secretary for the Lt Gen in USAF logistics, she said that you do not surprise General's like that.  There is a General's protocol that has to be followed.  Harwell not only embarrassed the General but he did not follow protocol.  Harwell side swiped CAP for his own personal gain.

The next year we were in the maroon epaulets.  I also remember USAF presence was limited at that Board meeting also.
What Gen Anderson is saying now may be the way the USAF wants it remembered, but I lived it.  Before the maroon, we had distinctive epaulets, they had CAP on them.  You had to be blind to not know the difference between USAF and CAP when you looked at the blue epaulets. 

I wore the maroon; I can attest that they were the ugliest thing that the Air Force has approved for the CAP uniform.  It really was an embarrassment to wear them.

[Major Carrales]

What Gen Anderson is saying now may be the way the USAF wants it remembered, but I lived it.  Before the maroon, we had distinctive epaulets, they had CAP on them.  You had to be blind to not know the difference between USAF and CAP when you looked at the blue epaulets. 

I wouldn't be so sure, just this week someone was saying that the grey epaulets looked blue through sun shades.

I will not presume to call into question General Anderson's words and surely will not prepetuate a rumor or myth.  I will take General Anderson at his word unless I can see...

1) USAF policy documentation specifically stating that this was punative or some other form of castigation.  I think it is safe to say that sort of documentation is not classified material.

2) CAP's contribution to the development of the Maroons and Greys.

3) Documenation from the era debating and discussing the change.

I would also like to know the process by which General Harwell's promotion came about.  It could not have been that much a suprise, some authority had to have debated and approved it.  Even in the most Draconian vision of the imagination of CAPTALK members could a National Commander do that, self-coronate himself, with no one knowing.

Also, why then is the man listed as Maj General Harwell still of it was a move so contrary to the USAF?  Other National Commanders have been stripped of it all for less brazen actions.  

There are too many holes in the "Harwell" story at this time for me to lend it any further support, whereas my support of the opposite is based on having been told the "rest of the story" from a former National Commander.

[ol'fido]

Alternative but unlikely reason: When you are wearing your seat belt as you must do on all DOD facilities, it tended to cover up the CAP on the blue epaulet so that all that could be seen was the rank. Many a gate guard probably thought that they were dealing with a RM officer instead of a CAP senior member. I do know of an instance where this happened but I will leave it to Redfox24 to tell that war story.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dang, Sparky, you CAN be a buzz-killer!

The story of the USAF punishing its red-headed stepchild is a terrific urban legend.  And, frankly, as ugly and unpopular as they were, I tend to believe the "Harwell-must-be-destroyed" story.

Also, the red epaulets were only worn for about a year or two.  CAP ended the war with pin-on rank on the pinks and greens, AND hard rank on the flight cap (for a very short time).

But, hey... Nice try!

[Eclipse]

Alternative but unlikely reason: When you are wearing your seat belt as you must do on all DOD facilities, it tended to cover up the CAP on the blue epaulet so that all that could be seen was the rank. Many a gate guard probably thought that they were dealing with a RM officer instead of a CAP senior member. I do know of an instance where this happened but I will leave it to Redfox24 to tell that war story.

Same issue with the CSU today, especially the black jacket on a Navy base.

Why should it matter whether the gate guard thinks your in a military service or CAP?  Unless you're doing something you're not supposed to, you're there all of about 30 seconds.

[RiverAux]

Old logical fallacy.
1.  Ice cream consumption goes up in the summertime.
2.  Murder rates go up in the summertime.
3.  Therefore ice cream leads to murder.

Just because a change happened after an event doesn't necessarily mean that the event was the direct cause of that change. 

[Eclipse]

^ Not being the "direct cause" doesn't mean it wasn't the "last straw"...

[Rotorhead]

Harwell not only embarrassed the General but he did not follow protocol.  Harwell side swiped CAP for his own personal gain.

The next year we were in the maroon epaulets. 

Correlation does not imply causation.

[FARRIER]

We lost the use of all metal rank at the same time, this being due to Harwell's actions. Being a wing staff officer then, we were given an oral briefing on this.

[SJFedor]

Old logical fallacy.
1.  Ice cream consumption goes up in the summertime.
2.  Murder rates go up in the summertime.
3.  Therefore ice cream leads to murder.

Just because a change happened after an event doesn't necessarily mean that the event was the direct cause of that change. 

You laugh, but i distinctly remember hearing something about a shooting at a baskin robbins last summer...

[Major Carrales]

^ Not being the "direct cause" doesn't mean it wasn't the "last straw"...

Why are you so determined to have this urban legend keep spreading?  Am I or anyone else to assume you want there to be problems between USAF and CAP?  I have already said it was not so quoting a very credible source who asked me to quote him on these issues.

[ol'fido]

Alternative but unlikely reason: When you are wearing your seat belt as you must do on all DOD facilities, it tended to cover up the CAP on the blue epaulet so that all that could be seen was the rank. Many a gate guard probably thought that they were dealing with a RM officer instead of a CAP senior member. I do know of an instance where this happened but I will leave it to Redfox24 to tell that war story.

Same issue with the CSU today, especially the black jacket on a Navy base.

Why should it matter whether the gate guard thinks your in a military service or CAP?  Unless you're doing something you're not supposed to, you're there all of about 30 seconds.

That's why I said UNLIKELY, Bob. It wasn't a serious cotribution, but merely an invitation to SOMEONE ELSE to tell a war story about the blue shoulder marks.

[PA Guy]

For what it is worth.  At the time of the change I had a good friend in the AF who was assigned to a region LO office. He said the epaulet change went through the Air Staff in record time and this from a body that was known for glacial movement.

At the time of the change neither the CAP leadership or the  AF side of the house did anything to dispel the rumors that the change was punitive.

I don't have any inside knowledge if the change was punitive or not. I do know that over the yrs I have seen the AF repeatedly mandate changes that distanced themselves from CAP and I'm not sure I would dismiss something as an urban legend based on what someone with a vested interest told me. If you expect to find a smoking gun memo or some other document, that isn't going to happen, give the AF some credit

[Major Carrales]

Wow...people defending urban legends with such zeal.    It seems as if people want this to be so.

Why should anyone want to dispell rumors at that time?  Immediate "rumor control" often prepetuates the idea of "cover up" and "sinister intentions." 
In this day and age a prominent CAP official, General Anderson, has made it clear that it is a rumor.  Wild Speculations, specious claims and the testimony of unnamed officials in past LO offices do not constitute viable proof.

General Anderson indicated that he spoke directly with General Fogleman who indicated that the idea to change CAP uniforms was long in debate.  By the way, what "vested interest" does General Anderson have in these matters?  In fact, we went to "grey" during his tenure.

And still, no one has produced any infromation on the process that allowed Major General Harwell to be promoted.  Additionally, since the USAF controls CAP rank and grade...what was he not demoted?  How could CAP "pull a fast one" and get away with it?

I'm assuming that the Major General in this photo is General Harwell...

After all these years am I the only one asking questions as how and why this happened?  It should be the starting point of all the urban legend talking CAPTALKERS. 


My friends, if you are going to make specuations and pass them as "facts," then do the research I am asking for.  The burden of proof in in your court.

[ZigZag911]

Sparky, without casting aspersions on anyone, may I remind you that sometimes there is an "official" version of events as well as the actual version?

I believe you are hearing the public answer to this question. I do not question its veracity -- I merely point out that it may indeed only be one facet of the story.

I was around and fairly active at the time (ie, had some reasonably highly placed sources); it was widely known, both in CAP & AF ranks, that the Harwell promotion was a major contributory factor in getting us the "berry boards", as well as getting hard rank removed from utility caps and similar field items.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky, without casting aspersions on anyone, may I remind you that sometimes there is an "official" version of events as well as the actual version?

I believe you are hearing the public answer to this question. I do not question its veracity -- I merely point out that it may indeed only be one facet of the story.

I was around and fairly active at the time (ie, had some reasonably highly placed sources); it was widely known, both in CAP & AF ranks, that the Harwell promotion was a major contributory factor in getting us the "berry boards", as well as getting hard rank removed from utility caps and similar field items.

So, you're telling me the "official" story is a lie?  That I should believe some 20 year old rumor mill because its always been so, and negate the word of a Civil Air Patrol Brig. General (and recently retired USAF Colonel) based on a general belief?

I should think, and this is my turn to speculate, that if the USAF was going to punish CAP in any manner for a CAP General being promoted that they would...

1) Make the punishment clear and unopen to interpretation

2) demote, or discharge, the offending Major General in question

3) Indicate some indignation and steady warnings about this matter so CAP would try it again

All I have ever heard of this "urban ledend" has been rumor.  If rumor holds that much an effect in CAP...then I would warn you all to be careful.  Just because people want things to be true, that a good deal of people hold a belief and that something is deme true because it has been 20 plus years...not not make it "fact" or "truthful."

[Cecil DP]

In your retelling BG Anderson was told by GEN Fogelman. No General is going to admit that a change was made because of personal issues. The change to red shoulder boards may have been contemplated for a while as BG Anderson and GEN Fogelman say. But with the speed it occurred, I'm sure that MG HArwell's self promotion was an accelerant. It also led to the requirement that all CAP General promotions be approved by the USAF.

[FARRIER]

I have already said it was not so quoting a very credible source who asked me to quote him on these issues.

My source then was Col. Bobick, the now former National Commander. I was the Wing Personnel at the time.

[RiverAux]

I think this thread to some extent reflects the relative weakness of the CAP historical program.  Now, I think we're better at it than 90% of volunteer organizations since we at least HAVE a historical program.  The funny thing is that much of our national-level historical focus seems to be on uniforms (patches in particular), but this particuluar issue isn't covered in any official history that I'm aware of.

Despite that, I have to agree with others that iin that if this was in fact some sort of punative measure, you will never find one scrap of paper to prove it.  Bureacratic organizations such as the AF know better than that.  You might be able to track down a retired AF officer involved in the decision who might be willing to admit it, but even that is doubtful. 

As far as historical evidence goes, you might be able to find proof that it is true, but I don't think you'll ever get enough proof to kill it off. 

Personally, I tend to doubt that it is true since they already had one CAP officer wearing general stars so don't exactly see where having that one officer wear two stars following some sort of inappropriate action would be all that different.  Seems like other avenues of "punishment" would be easier to take. 

[PHall]

Major Carrles, I would say that Gen Anderson told you the version that he wants to be remembered.

Or look at it another way, you have one source for your version. Granted, he's a pretty highly placed source, but it's just one source.

But there have been many sources for the other version and some of those are from pretty highly placed sources too.

You say you're a history buff, as a "historian", which version do you think is closer to the truth?

[Major Carrales]

Major Carrles, I would say that Gen Anderson told you the version that he wants to be remembered.

Or look at it another way, you have one source for your version. Granted, he's a pretty highly placed source, but it's just one source.

But there have been many sources for the other version and some of those are from pretty highly placed sources too.

You say you're a history buff, as a "historian", which version do you think is closer to the truth?

As an hiatorian, you have to understand the nature of the subject of history and historiography.  There exists "total hiatory," that history we can never know because it includes everything that ever happened (including the times you woke up, went to the bath room and breakfast every day of your life).  Then there is all the history that was written down or otherwise documented, these are the memos, letters and diaries.  Of that then there is only that which was written down that survived.

Of that which survives, there is what is genuine and what is not factual.  We rarely deal in "truths," only in facts.  What is left requires historiography, which is the study of how history is studied.

It is in that realm that we find ourselves in this issue.  Good historiography involves finding facts to back up the stories we hear. 

Take, for example, the idea that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and then admitted it to his father, Augstine Washtington.   Many people believe this and other stories about Washington to be true, adding that one story of George Washington throwing a silver dollar across the Potomac.

These stories are not true, but rather were part of a story by Mason Locke Weems' "biography" that were designed to show the virtures of George Washintgon's Character.

The throwing of the dollar across the Potomac is also false, since the Potomac is over a mile ide at the point where this was to have happened.  It is more likely that it was the Rapahanock (sp) River which was nearer Mount Vernon and not during the Revolution.  Documents from his step Children seem to point that this was so.  Thus, the story is not true.

Don't fool yourself Phall, and suggest that I am only a "so called" historian, I am a fully trained one.

As to which version I think is closer.  I cannot lend creedence to this idea that it was a punative action.  Not solely on Brig General Anderson's comments to be, but rather on all the "holes" in that idea.  Which I have already posted many times.

I agree with RiverAux  when he says "you might be able to find proof that it is true, but I don't think you'll ever get enough proof to kill it off."  It is the nature of false rumors to "sensationalize" over the facts of the reality.  This is why even people who are aquited beyond a reasonable doubt for some crime are continued to be treated as guilty.  

[fyrfitrmedic]

Sparky, without casting aspersions on anyone, may I remind you that sometimes there is an "official" version of events as well as the actual version?

I believe you are hearing the public answer to this question. I do not question its veracity -- I merely point out that it may indeed only be one facet of the story.

I was around and fairly active at the time (ie, had some reasonably highly placed sources); it was widely known, both in CAP & AF ranks, that the Harwell promotion was a major contributory factor in getting us the "berry boards", as well as getting hard rank removed from utility caps and similar field items.

I was around and very active at the time; the apparent punitive nature of the change was basically accepted as gospel when all of this went down.

[Eclipse]

^ Not being the "direct cause" doesn't mean it wasn't the "last straw"...

Why are you so determined to have this urban legend keep spreading?  Am I or anyone else to assume you want there to be problems between USAF and CAP?  I have already said it was not so quoting a very credible source who asked me to quote him on these issues.

For one thing - a single, second-hand conversation is hardly "Snopes" - nothing here has been dispelled, though you do cast some doubt as to the situation.  There are a number of people here who are claiming a similar second-hand knowledge through different channels that maintains the accepted story, and a couple claiming first-hand awareness.

Further, as mentioned, there is generally an official story and the real story, and when you start discussing possible misconduct, details are generally muddled or obfuscated.  In this case I would tend to believe that this is a "last straw" case more than a direct cause/effect.  Other than the possible gaffe with the self-promotion, you don't hear much about Gen. Harwell, good or bad, and it may simply not have been worth the trouble to try and remove someone from office for a mistake which may have offended people, but was ultimately meaningless.

HWSRN, on the other hand, was apparently leaving a wake of questionable actions in his path, along with the overt allegations against him by various parties.  A couple of other more recent former Nat CC's have also left under less than perfect circumstances, but retained their grade upon leaving.

As to the perpetuation?  It serves a very useful purpose regarding CAP's place in the world and the size of one's britches.

[cnitas]

I was around and very active at the time; the apparent punitive nature of the change was basically accepted as gospel when all of this went down.

We used to have photos of many/all? Natl Commanders in the senior member  office.  I noticed we used to wear blue.  It was explaind to me back in '91 that the change was punitive for the Harwell stuff.

I doubt seriously that CAP made the change voluntarily.

[cap235629]

here is another wrinkle on this story

At our wing's recent SLS class, the course director (who is also an AD Air Force Officer) during his section on uniforms and professionalism related a version of the berry board change.

This version involved 2 "senior CAP officers" were at a conference on an AF Base and berated a Chief Master Sergeant for not saluting them.  The story goes on that the Chief was a bit irritated and reported the incident to his chain of command and the resulting action was the berry boards.  May be another urban legend but if this even has a grain of truth to it, maybe the CAP culture that prevailed at the time was the REAL reason for all of the changes and USAF response was appropriate, direct and necessary

[Rob Sherlin]

  Never knew the reason why they chose the maroon epaulet sleeves (thanks for that bit of info).......The story of punishment for someone on top "self promoting" is kind of far fetched, but still is an interesting story (I can't see how anyone would expect to get away with that for too long) with kind of a moral lesson to it. The main thing is....I agree they were "off color" to the uniforms, but then again, they're not used anymore.
  So, in the right situation, you can probably use this "myth" as a tool when teaching about a lot of things............Maroon and blue?..........You don't even have to see it to know it's a bad combination.

  Maybe we should adopt that concept again for punishment for people who are out of uniform... ...Just kiddin'

[Eclipse]

  Maybe we should adopt that concept again for punishment for people who are out of uniform... ...Just kiddin'

Would that then be...The Scarlett Epaulet?

[Major Carrales]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

The prior seems to have the most basis in  reality in accordance with what the USAF wanted.  The latter is riddled with holes, heresay and, frankly, DRAMA.

I would think that at the very least, if the USAF would have demaned the loss of one Star.  it is far fetched that the "USAF machine" would go as far as that over one incident.  It is more likely the discussion of a more distinctive CAP Uniform was in the works as early as the 1970s.  Once the "Pepsi Cola" patch was gone and CAP uniforms looked like USAF unifroms (save for a nameplate and wierd looking and plastic encased ribbons), the need for distinction was evident.


This is my speculation now...
If I may propose this extremely controversial statement.  The CAP Uniforms of the mid-1970s to the early 1990s were not distinctive enough (prior more identical uniforms of the 1940s and 1950s reflected a very different time for CAP, in that even the USO and RED CROSS wore some military style uniform).  

It was a time of good luck for the CAP to have an almost identical uniform.  Furthermore, those who remember that era fondly in terms of uniforms were living in a gilded age for CAP uniforms.

The point being that the blue shoulder marks and medal rank on USAF Style Uniforms is not likely to ever come back.  While this is sad for many, it is the current reality.

[Major Carrales]

  Never knew the reason why they chose the maroon epaulet sleeves (thanks for that bit of info).......The story of punishment for someone on top "self promoting" is kind of far fetched, but still is an interesting story (I can't see how anyone would expect to get away with that for too long) with kind of a moral lesson to it. The main thing is....I agree they were "off color" to the uniforms, but then again, they're not used anymore.

This would be similar to the George Washington legends of which I  mentioned in an earlier post.  As a morality tale and warning, it is great.  As an actual accounting of what happed...it is suspect.

[ßτε]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

My guess is that it was incidents like number 2) that prompted number 1). For 20+ years hard rank was worn on the uniform just like the AF. The AF didn't have a problem with it until the early 90's. What might have triggered the desire for a more distinctive uniform? I don't know for sure, but events described in this discussion sure seem like plausible motivations for the USAF to want our uniforms more distinctive than they were.

[Major Carrales]

Brothers and Sisters, this issue represents two different ideas.  

1) That the USAF was seeking distinctive CAP uniforms in the late 1980s and early 90s.  They instituted the Maroon color to reflect the arcane red trimmings of WWII.  This was unpopular and an alternate color, of which grey was one of the candidates and was approved, was proposed.

2) Some event, be it a duo of CAP Officers demanding salutes or the Self-promotion of a CAP National Commander instituted punative actions against CAP.  

My guess is that it was incidents like number 2) that prompted number 1). For 20+ years hard rank was worn on the uniform just like the AF. The AF didn't have a problem with it until the early 90's. What might have triggered the desire for a more distinctive uniform? I don't know for sure, but events described in this discussion sure seem like plausible motivations for the USAF to want our uniforms more distinctive than they were.

As I said, there is and was always to be a distinction between CAP and USAF uniforms.  In the early part of WWII the red did that, in the early 1950s CAP was still in pink-in-greens thus the USAF distinction was maintained.  The Adpotion of the Blue Uniforms there after had it with distinct buttons, "CAP" cut outs and a very non-USAF patch (the so-called Pepsi Cola) patch of the time worn over the right pocket.

After this in the 70s-80s the CAP uniform was not very distinct.  I suspect that the reason for the color changes lied more in correction of that matter than the punative ones mentioned.

I think, with the gery trimming and US on the cut outs, we have arrived at "as good as it gets."   

[cap235629]

Personally I like the grey epaulettes and think CAP should embrace them as our own and wear them on ALL uniforms INCLUDING the CSU. (before someone goes off on a tangent NO I am not advocating wearing them on BDU's etc., just service dress and csu)

[ßτε]

In the 70's and 80's, we still had distinctive buttons, CAP cutouts, Wing patches,  either a two-piece nameplate or a three-line nameplate. For more than twenty years, that was distinctive enough for the AF. Unless you are implying that it takes twenty years to make changes to the uniform, something in the early 90's motivated the AF to want CAP to have even more distinction. I know we are mostly speculating at this point, but the above incidents are a plausible explanation.

[Major Carrales]

In the 70's and 80's, we still had distinctive buttons, CAP cutouts, Wing patches,  either a two-piece nameplate or a three-line nameplate. For more than twenty years, that was distinctive enough for the AF. Unless you are implying that it takes twenty years to make changes to the uniform, something in the early 90's motivated the AF to want CAP to have even more distinction. I know we are mostly speculating at this point, but the above incidents are a plausible explanation.

As this thread finds it way to the end.  I find that I will be a supporter of General Anderson's "version."  Each may hold their own, but let me say this at this time... none of this is resolved.  I sould suggest that in future discussion of this, that the story be told as "it was believed" or "some people say," because none of this (pro of con) has been shown to be factucal.

[Major Carrales]

Personally I like the grey epaulettes and think CAP should embrace them as our own and wear them on ALL uniforms INCLUDING the CSU. (before someone goes off on a tangent NO I am not advocating wearing them on BDU's etc., just service dress and csu)

I agree, as CAP we should embrace the disctinction a bit mor than is done now and that the CSU have grey instead of blue.  There are many issues with the CSU that could be solved by that.

[RiverAux]

Unlike our white on ultramarine BDU/BBDU name tapes, etc., I've always thought the gray eps looked fine and don't mind that particular CAP/USAF distinction.  And really, I'd rather put eps on my service coat than try to get metal rank pinned on in the right spot each time. 

[Rob Sherlin]

  I don't want to get into the nametapes and patches on the blue BDU's....They would look great if the background color of the patches, and so forth matched. But getting back to "maroon" epaulet sleeves myth, it does almost seem like the whole "Scarlet Letter" story in some ways.

[FW]

I've heard almost 10 different reasons we ended up with "berry" boards during the 80s and the 90s.  However, I'm sticking with the version I heard from Len Blascovich, our historian.  According to Col. Blascovich, the change of our eps from blue to maroon was a result of a "disagreement" between the SECAF and CSAF over Gen. Harwell's promotion to Maj Gen.    And, yes, the current combo on our uniform is just fine with me.  

Maybe we should worry more about current and future missions for CAP but, I guess that would be too boring....

[FlyingTerp]

[SNIP]
I think, with the gery trimming and US on the cut outs, we have arrived at "as good as it gets."   

Well said.  Not to take this too far off topic, but I think a lot of folks undervalue how significant wearing the US cutouts really is. 

[RiverAux]

Well said.  Not to take this too far off topic, but I think a lot of folks undervalue how significant wearing the US cutouts really is. 

I've heard more than a hint of envy about this from my friends in the CG Aux.

[Rob Sherlin]

 I don't think the blue epaulet sleeves will ever be approved with the blue uniform. Even with the exception of having CAP on the sleeves, you'll still look like a USAF officer from a distance, which is what I think they're trying to differ from.

[RiverAux]

Interestingly, the CG Aux equivalent dark blue slacks with light blue shirt has blue sleeves for the officer marks, so from any distance (50+ feet) a CG Auxie could be mistaken for an AF officer as well as for a CG officer.  Of course, once you got closer there would be some more obvious differences (nameplate color primarily). 

[AlphaSigOU]

BITD WIWOAD with Ma Blue, I had just rejoined CAP as a senior member for the first time around; in those days we had hard rank on service dress but CAP cutouts on the lapels. One night a week I'd get off duty as an A1C cook in the chow hall and change into CAP blues as a CAP TFO and later 1st Lt. As I walked down the hill at Spangdahlem to the meeting place of the squadron I'd occasionally get a salute (which I returned), though if I didn't I wasn't going after the guy for not popping off one. My services squadron commander and first sergeant were aware of my membership in CAP and there was no heartburn from the base commander or the wing king, so there were no issues over me impersonating an officer. Those who asked me in the chow line a day or two later got the explanation  from me about CAP,  and that answer was satisfactory to them. (My CAP squadron commander was also in my squadron - he was the dorm manager, so he would have heard very quickly if I got out of line.)

[Smokey]

Personally I'd like to go back to the blue w/CAP on them.......

But back to the self promotion to Major Gen.....the talk here has said that if it was self promotion, why didn't they strip him of the second star???  But you will notice the next CC was back to a single star as were subsequent national commanders.  It wasn't until after 9/11 that the Air Force officially promoted the national commander position to Maj Gen.  I remember very clearly the announcement and it was in recognition of our role and the increased responsiblity.  

Also I do not for one moment doubt Sparky's account as told by Gen Anderson, but I'm still suspicious of the timing.

[Cecil DP]

Personally I'd like to go back to the blue w/CAP on them.......

But back to the self promotion to Major Gen.....the talk here has said that if it was self promotion, why didn't they strip him of the second star??? But you will notice the next CC was back to a single star as were subsequent national commanders.  It wasn't until after 9/11 that the Air Force officially promoted the national commander position to Maj Gen.  I remember very clearly the announcement and it was in recognition of our role and the increased responsibility.  

Also I do not for one moment doubt Sparky's account as told by Gen Anderson, but I'm still suspicious of the timing.

At the time, the USAF didn't have oversight of CAP General Officer promotions-They do now since the Harwell incident. So the appointment onbly had to be approved by the National Board.
Unfortunately, Then as now the National Board did what the National Commander wanted. Even the Air Force has described the National Board as being  an incestuous relationship. The National Commander selects the Region Commanders and National Staff Officers, The Region commanders appoint Wing Commander (after confirmation by the NEC), and the National Board elects the National Commander.

If they dissented, there was a good chance they could be replaced at the earliest opportunity. So it turned into a case of "go along, to get along" We are all aware of cases in which Very senior CAP Officers have been replaced or fired for questionable reasons, including National Commanders, and Vice Commanders. The reason following National Commanders were BG's rather than MG's is that BG Barry refused to accept the extra star, until it was acceptable to the Air Force.

[ColonelJack]

Personally I'd like to go back to the blue w/CAP on them.......

But back to the self promotion to Major Gen.....the talk here has said that if it was self promotion, why didn't they strip him of the second star???  But you will notice the next CC was back to a single star as were subsequent national commanders.  It wasn't until after 9/11 that the Air Force officially promoted the national commander position to Maj Gen.  I remember very clearly the announcement and it was in recognition of our role and the increased responsiblity.  

Also I do not for one moment doubt Sparky's account as told by Gen Anderson, but I'm still suspicious of the timing.

I think both versions have some veracity to them.  There is no doubt in my mind, having been with CAP during the transition from hard rank to the berry boards and from said berry boards to gray, that the AF wanted more of a distinction between their blue suits and ours.  One reason is that when we changed from the two-part name plates to the single blue three-line, there was too much of a chance of misidentification, especially if you didn't see the member's left shoulder, where the wing patch was.  And there may indeed have been a change in the works for a long time, but there needed to be a catalyst to make it happen ...

Which is where General Harwell enters the picture.  Now, the way I heered it, the SecAF had okayed CAP's request to promote the National CC to major general and the National CV to brigadier general, but didn't run it past the Chief of Staff.  Big mistake on the SecAF's part.  And after all the brouhaha settled down, General Harwell was allowed to keep the second star -- remember, the SecAF did approve the idea -- but after his term, when General Barry came up to NatCC, he quietly and politely declined the second star, preferring to continue as previous NatCCs had done as brigadier generals.  Since Gen. Harwell's second star was authorized under CAP regulations at the time, he got to keep it, but no one would get a second star for many years to come.

Jack

[ltcmark]

So far no one on this thread has mentioned the former CAP-USAF commander; Col John Massingale.   One of the stories that was relayed to me by a former National Commander was that Col Massingale had it in for CAP for ruining his chance of getting his star. 

Up until his term, the CAP-USAF Commander was a Brig Gen slot.  After Massingale was installed as commander, it became a Colonel slot.  If I remember right, they served a year in position as Colonel and then made Brig Gen.   The story goes that when it came time for the promotion, someone in the Air Force decided that it needed to be a Colonel slot permanently (read into this - payback for something).  Then Gen Harwell gets a second star.   That was a real slap in the face to Col Massingale.   He lost his star and Harwell gets it.  That is when the relationship between CAP and USAF took a nose dive. 

What is really sad about all of this, Air Force officers looked at service with CAP as a career ending job.  I attended all the National Board meetings in that time period; I did not think that Col Massingale was a friend of CAP.  He always seemed to me that he carried a big chip on his shoulder for what happened.

Now you know the rest of the story.

[NCRblues]

Now you know the rest of the story


...briefed...