Flight Officer Grade

[mmouw]

My wife recently joined CAP. Because of her age she joined as a flight officer. When getting her uniforms ready we ordered her grade for BDUs and blues. We also ordered her mess dress boards. I received a credit from Vanguard yesterday for the add on bullion insignia. They don't make them anymore. Then looking for the gortex tab, they don't make any of the flight officer grades for the gortex.

This is sad. I know there isn't a lot of FOs out there but if it is a current grade then I think Vanguard should have to make the appropriate insignia for all members. We spent a bunch of money getting her mess dress together because Vanguard had the grade listed with the other mess dress boards. So know she has a mess dress that looks great, but not grade on it.

Does anyone out there have any bullion FO grades for the mess dress?

[isuhawkeye]

TO be honest I dont think that they have ever made a complete line of FO insignia

[Pylon]

I know they may have never actually made the mess dress insignia due to prohibitive cost for such a small run, but there is no excuse for why they can't make the Goretex tab.  Additionally, you'll also find they don't carry any FO insignia for the flight suit nor any insignia (blue epaulets nor metal pin on) for the corporate service uniform.

Basically, she'll have to ride out our supplier's negligence until she gets promoted.  You're right, it's a real grade.  But unfortunately they don't view it as important.  I don't buy the "well, they're such a small group, we can't afford to make it!"

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

[ColonelJack]

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

Not only do they have 'em ... you can buy 'em.  And there are a lot more flight officers in CAP than there are general officers.

Jack

[Gunner C]

There are a lot less Major Generals and Brigadier Generals in CAP than there are FO's.  But I bet you'll find that the CAP Generals have a full line of insignia... mess dress boards, epaulets, plastic-encased insignia, Goretex tabs, embroidered on ultramarine and dark blue, etc.

Not only do they have 'em ... you can buy 'em.  And there are a lot more flight officers in CAP than there are general officers.

Jack

To me, it points to a larger problem:  CAP doesn't do much to retain cadet officers after they turn 18.  We spend HUGE amounts of time training them but we get a very small number of them as officers.  CAP would be much better off if we retained them.

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. More demand, Vanguard would have the insignia available. 

GC

[CASH172]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

[SJFedor]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

I was happier in the operations circle then I was in the cadet programs circle. It's easier to be involved on the ops side of the house as a FO/TFO/SFO then it was to be a C/1st Lt or C/Capt.

[ColonelJack]

Regardless of perceived need, the flight officer grades are a part of CAP and Vanguard is duty-bound to provide insignia for them.  CAP closes off any and (just about) all other possible providers, so unless The Hock has something we don't know about ... it's either Vanguard or nothing.

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...
2.  Do away with flight officer grades completely.  (No, I don't know what we'd replace them with.)

Jack

[Eclipse]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

[AlphaSigOU]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

USAFA grade insignia (both the Zoo and the Preppies) are too distinctive for any other organization to use. Ditto with the grades for Canoe U and the South Hudson Institute for Wayward Children. (That's Annapolis and West Point for the humorless...  .)

Certain AFROTC cadet officer shoulder marks (C/2d Lt - C/Capt - C/Lt Col) are identical to CAP FO grade except that the shoulder marks are black, not blue or gray.

Maybe the Army's W-1 through W-3, but the CAP and AF FGOs may take exception to the piping at the base of the shoulder mark. (Unless we get a batch custom made.)

[Pylon]

Are any of the insignia from the academies or ROTC's close enough for re-purpose?

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...

We simply can't commandeer someone else's grade insignia, since we'd need a lot of special incarnations specific to CAP such as full color embroidered on ultramarine blue and dark blue, CAP goretex tabs, miniature metal pins for blazer nameplate, a shoddy plastic encased version for the flight suit, metal pin-on for the CSU, embroidered on grey epaulets with "CAP" for the AF-style dress uniforms, embroidered on blue for the corporate dress shirt, bullion for the mess dress boards...  nobody else is likely to have 1/3 of that already available.

CAP simply needs to direct Vanguard to suck it up and make the stuff.  Flight officers have been going without appropriate insignia for years.  I can't imagine that over the years, our suppliers couldn't have tinkered away and done one big lot of epaulets, then one big lot of bullion, and one big lot of plastic encased so that in a few years the whole line would be available. 

As I said above, there are a heck of a lot more FO/TFO/SFO's in CAP, then there are Maj Gen and Brig Gen's.  Since Vanguard found it in their budget to produce the complete line of necessary CAP general officers' insignia and still charge about the same prices (as available on the website), there's no excuse for lack of FO insignia. 

The CAP general officer's should be setting the example by ensuring the membership at large have what they need first.

[Eclipse]

Certain AFROTC cadet officer shoulder marks (C/2d Lt - C/Capt - C/Lt Col) are identical to CAP FO grade except that the shoulder marks are black, not blue or gray.

Right, so then at least the bullion insignia could be used for mess dress, and we know that someone has the pattern and might make them on different backing.

Most could be done as a (fairly) inexpensive walk-in job at the average embroidery shop.

[MIKE]

AFROTC POC insignia isn't close enough for my liking.

I think you do need to look at the number of serving flight officers versus those of CGOs though, as it is now they are glorified "senior members" for a three year period at most.

[Flying Pig]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

[kpetersen]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

I think in this particular case, i think his wife was a non-member (prior to being "his wife"), got married, then became a CAP member.  Tell her welcome to the organization!

[Cecil DP]

CAP simply needs to direct Vanguard to suck it up and make the stuff.  Flight officers have been going without appropriate insignia for years.  I can't imagine that over the years, our suppliers couldn't have tinkered away and done one big lot of epaulets, then one big lot of bullion, and one big lot of plastic encased so that in a few years the whole line would be available. 

I thought when CAP closed the Bookstore and gave the contract to Vanguard, there was a commitment to carry all CAP insignia. Otherwise why give them the contract?

[SARMedTech]

Regardless of perceived need, the flight officer grades are a part of CAP and Vanguard is duty-bound to provide insignia for them.  CAP closes off any and (just about) all other possible providers, so unless The Hock has something we don't know about ... it's either Vanguard or nothing.

If NHQ can't convince Vanguard to make FO/TFO/SFO grades in the same choices they make officer grade insignia, then perhaps we should do one of two things:

1.  Ask AF if we can re-designate our Flight Officer grades as Warrant Officers, since such grades are readily available, or ...
2.  Do away with flight officer grades completely.  (No, I don't know what we'd replace them with.)

Jack

While I like the Warrant Officer idea, I think Momma Blue would have a fit if we tried to put back WO grades. I even think that there could be a use for WO grades for SM's working their way up to LT grades, but that is for another thread and I dont want to be the reason this thread gets hammered shut.

[Pylon]

I thought when CAP closed the Bookstore and gave the contract to Vanguard, there was a commitment to carry all CAP insignia. Otherwise why give them the contract?

Perhaps, but Vanguard makes nothing without NHQ telling them to make it.  Example:  military badges are authorized in white on ultramarine.  CAP members have called dozens of times, pointed out that they're authorized for CAP, and gotten the same response: no. 

There are tons of things besides all the FO insignia which are authorized but Vanguard will not provide, since NHQ has not supplied the impetus.  Take for example the Eaker mini-medal.  It still isn't available after over a decade.  People have cited costs such as creating dies to strike the medals as prohibitive; yet the National Commanders Unit Citation had a miniature medal available within months of its creation.  Another example?  The miniature GT badge and IC badge went from concept to die creation to production to retail availability in record time of less than a few months when NHQ wanted it to happen.

NHQ regularly leaves out provisions for female versions when creating and modifying uniforms - the new corporate service dress was a perfect example; there's still areas they haven't bothered to put together for females, such as the semi-formal option.  NHQ also took a year or two before they authorized any outerwear for the uniform, demonstrating a long-time standing effort to forget members in climates colder than Montgomery.  How many years was the Goretex available before CAP asked for it to be authorized (and summarily forgot the pants and the rest of the ECWS system?).  NHQ also regularly forgets to figure out how the NCO version of uniforms should be configured, leaving large swaths of "gray area" in the uniform closet for CAP NCOs for stretches of time.

It's all what NHQ thinks it important.  Some things are not important to NHQ (flight officers, former cadet officers, NCOs, females), thus they don't get done on the same timeline as uniforms for those who are approving them (male senior member officers).

[Psicorp]

If we retained more of the former cadet officers, there would be more demand for flight officer insignia. 

But what incentive, other than CD missions, is there for a cadet to want to switch over before he/she legally had to. 

In this particular case.....it looks like she got married.

I think most former cadets move on for a while, then come back to CAP later in their lives.

I know it's gotten a little better from the days when I was a Cadet Officer, but way back when there was a huge disparigy between how Senior Members treated a 20 year old Senior Member versus how a 20 year old Cadet Officer was treated. 

Of course, there are some individuals who don't perform well in the Cadet Program and switch to Senior Member status and suddenly they're big adult Senior Members in the eyes of the Cadets.   Thankfully these individuals are a tiny minority of those who do switch over to the "Dark Side".

[mmouw]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.

[JayT]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.

Hmm, when I asked them, they hung up on me after telling me my rank doesn't exist.

[mmouw]

Well in 2-3 months they said you will have gortex tabs and mess dress boards.

[SSgt Rudin]

Well in 2-3 months they said you will have gortex tabs and mess dress boards.

Well, as far as the gortex tab you could always do what it seems c/officers have to do... buy a blank one and sew the rank you need on there.

[SAR-EMT1]

WOW!!! Ok so I just called Vanguard about this problem, they told me they would now order the grade to be manufactured since someone has requested it. This is the mess dress boards and the gortex tabs.

So we will get them only if you really want them! One would think if you make it they will buy it.

I will believe it when I see it. I was a FO/TFO/SFO once. I called Vanguard a half million times and I didnt get crap.

[Gunner C]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

[SSgt Rudin]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

That wont work, it makes sense.

[JayT]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

[jpnelson82]

try the hock shop, they're expensive but you can get the FO insignia your wife desires.

http://www.thehock.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=566951&cat=33&;

[afgeo4]

The Hock doesn't list GORTEX Flight Officer grades as available and doesn't list the mess dress female boards either. However, it seems that they may have the male mess dress flight officer boards. Odd.

I also agree with the posters who support the "I don't care if there's only one, make the [darn] insignia as a sign of respect" ideal.

However, Vanguard cannot be made to eat the costs of having to produce insignia even though there aren't many people there to sell it to. They're a business. I think CAP (NHQ) should eat that cost. They're our members, our concern.

[JayT]

The Hock doesn't list GORTEX Flight Officer grades as available and doesn't list the mess dress female boards either. However, it seems that they may have the male mess dress flight officer boards. Odd.

I also agree with the posters who support the "I don't care if there's only one, make the [darn] insignia as a sign of respect" ideal.

However, Vanguard cannot be made to eat the costs of having to produce insignia even though there aren't many people there to sell it to. They're a business. I think CAP (NHQ) should eat that cost. They're our members, our concern.

Yeah, well, the money they loss selling proper insignia to FO/TFO/SFO can be made up by those blank shoulder marks they sell.

[mikeylikey]

If Vanguard can't produce these items within the next month, then NHQ should allow other suppliers to operate without threat of lawsuit.  This is not a Vanguard problem and not their fault.  It is strictly a NHQ problem.  They failed us on this issue, and should do whats right here. 

[JayT]

If Vanguard can't produce these items within the next month, then NHQ should allow other suppliers to operate without threat of lawsuit.  This is not a Vanguard problem and not their fault.  It is strictly a NHQ problem.  They failed us on this issue, and should do whats right here. 

I disagree. It's Vanguard and NHQ's problem.

How long as the ECWCS parka been authorized?

How long has the DFU cap with 'Metal or embroided grade insignia' been authorized?

How long has Mess Dress been authroized?

How long has the CSU been authroized?

So, we need to have ECWCS tabs produced, mess shoulder boards, and metal insignia. Even if we adopt the old Air Force WO insignia, they still won't be readily aviable.

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

[jimmydeanno]

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

You obviously aren't in the manufacturing business, vanguard doesn't care about our CAPM 39-1, they care about what they are contracted to manufacture.  This isn't Vanguards problem what so ever.  They are not going to start producing things without a specific order from CAPNHQ to do so.  I'm sure you could call them and they be willing to do a custom embroidery job for you, but without specific direction they aren't going to include it in their normal product line.

Vanguards responsibility is to produce a product to the specifications that NHQ tells them to as per the specific contract they have, this includes fabric, colors, etc. 

Our contract manufacturers (where I work) do not produce anything for us unless we specifically tell them to.  Even then they have minimum quantities that we MUST order to justify them setting up the production line.  If we do single units the cost goes up greatly (sometimes 5 fold).

If you have an issue, call the Vanguard liason at CAP NHQ and hash it out with them.

[mikeylikey]

^ I agree Jimmy.....it is a NHQ blunder. 

NHQ really let the ball slip over the years in regard to uniforms and insignia. 

[Gunner C]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

They did.  I was one of them.  I was a CWO before becoming a 1st Lt (back in the mid-70s).  I still have my field jacket with the W4 bars and droopy observer wings on it.  AAMOF, the old USAAF warrant officers were called flight officers.  Two I can think of were Chuck Yeager and Clark Gable.

GC

[JayT]

Here's a thought - keep FO, TFO, SFO but use the old USAF (same as Navy) WO bars.  We'd still have FOs but there would be actual rank insignia to use.

GC

I think CAP Warrant Officers did wear them at some point.

I don't care if they call me a Warrant Officer or a Flight Officer, as long as I have uniform insignia.

They did.  I was one of them.  I was a CWO before becoming a 1st Lt (back in the mid-70s).  I still have my field jacket with the W4 bars and droopy observer wings on it.  AAMOF, the old USAAF warrant officers were called flight officers.  Two I can think of were Chuck Yeager and Clark Gable.

GC

During WWII, Flight Officers were pilots who didn't have a college education.

[TmanF22]

I was just promoted from TFO and I was told by my Wing commander that is was OK to sew it directly on the tab if no slip was available. (I never cought any flack for it even in other states.)

Hope that helps.

[davedove]

It's Nationals fault for producing regs without paying attention to whats in them, and it's Vanguards fault for not reading them and adjusting their production line.

You obviously aren't in the manufacturing business, vanguard doesn't care about our CAPM 39-1, they care about what they are contracted to manufacture.  This isn't Vanguards problem what so ever.  They are not going to start producing things without a specific order from CAPNHQ to do so.  I'm sure you could call them and they be willing to do a custom embroidery job for you, but without specific direction they aren't going to include it in their normal product line.

Vanguards responsibility is to produce a product to the specifications that NHQ tells them to as per the specific contract they have, this includes fabric, colors, etc. 

That's it exactly, Vanguard will only do what they are required to do by the contract.  If it's Vanguard's call about when they produce an item, something is wrong with the contract.  It should have been written so that any CAP needs for required items would be produced, no matter how small the need.

If Vanguard is the only authorized supplier of rank insignia, and CAP has a need for the FO insignia, the contract should have been written so that Vanguard has to supply it.  If the contract was written poorly, that NHQ's fault.

I don't know the specifics of the contract, so I can't tell whether it's being fulfilled, but I would bet you that Vanguard has a fair amount of experience with this and they are following the letter of the contract.

[mmouw]

This raises another concern with Flight Officers. National lists their IDs in regard to grade as SM. This gives an idea of the lack of concern to the FOs out there. The progression of grade with the FOs is similar to 2Lt. and 1Lt. I know it is not exact, but close. So if that is the case, why not recognize them for their current grade by putting it on their ID cards? Other tan integrity, what is to keep them from jumping ahead on grade early. We have no way to verify one on one.

[mikeylikey]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card. 

[afgeo4]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card. 

Cadet grade had nothing to do with it, ever. They could have listed FO grades just the same as all other officer grades. They simply chose not to.

Now I know there aren't that many FO's out there, but I'll bet there are more than BrigGen and MajGen and C/Col... and they all have proper insignia, in metal, cloth, and plastic (save for C/Col). Flight officers are in their grades for up to 3 years which is probably longer than the average length of continuous service with our new senior members. I think we need to pay more attention to those who are the future of our organization.

[Hawk200]

^ Now that they list cadet grade in e-services,  they can easily do it for FO's.  No reason they should not, and they should print it on the membership card. 

.......
Now I know there aren't that many FO's out there, but I'll bet there are more than BrigGen and MajGen and C/Col... .....Flight officers are in their grades for up to 3 years which is probably longer than the average length of continuous service with our new senior members. I think we need to pay more attention to those who are the future of our organization.

I'd have to second that. More FO's than generals, and the generals serve for a shorter period than FO's do (usually).

[DNall]

IIRC, it's 3mos to FO, 9 to TFO, 18 to SFO. Then you get screwed in the conversion to Capt cause they didn't program the chart right for combination of TIG.

The idea there WAS that FOs serve short periods like cadets (and LTs) AND it's a low number, so doesn't ned to be tracked. Now that we're tracking cadets, that argument is out of the water. FO grades do need to be tracked. AND, the IG chart needs to say at 21 the promotion is based on total TIS as a SM.

[RiverAux]

It will cost more to produce insigina for FOs, but that isn't really a problem for Vanguard.  All they have to do is charge more for the item to make up the difference.  Shouldn't be a big deal. 

However, if there is something they won't produce.  Be vocal about it.  The CAP leadership may or may not know there is a problem.  Send an email up your chain of command.  Since that will probably get lost and since there isn't a real "legal" way to bypass chain of command on such issues, I would send a question to the CAP knowledgebase saying:
"Vanguard doesn't make the piece of rank insignia I need, what other manufacturers make the authorized item?"  NHQ may not know the answer, but they will have been notified that it is an issue. 

[DNall]

Or advocate for the overthrow the the tyrannical regime... j/k, figure if we're going to look like South American generals with all our crazy insignia & we might as well overthrow the govt just as often. 

[JayT]

http://www.thehock.com/shop/index.php?rec=20&shop=1&cart=573565&cat=19&keywords=&match_criteria=&searchCat=

"Senior Grade FO Blue Epaulettes, pr (old style)"

[Pylon]

http://www.thehock.com/shop/index.php?rec=20&shop=1&cart=573565&cat=19&keywords=&match_criteria=&searchCat=

"Senior Grade FO Blue Epaulettes, pr (old style)"

Yeah, and those aren't worn on any uniform right now.

The CSU shirt uses blue shouldermarks without the "CAP", and the CSU jacket and outerwear utilize metal pin-on grade (which doesn't exist for FO's). The AF-style shirt, jacket and outerwear all use the grey shouldermarks with the "CAP".

Those would be good for a shadowbox for someone who was a FO back in the "blue CAP epaulet" days.

[jimmydeanno]

Bringing up an old topic, just to note availability of FO Grade Insignia:

Per Vanguard's Website:

MESS DRESS SHOULDER BOARDS.  These come in two parts for FO's, the blank board and the appropriate bullion insignia is sold separately. (Solves the low quantity issue.)

Side Note:  Don't feel like shelling out $33.00 for new shoulder boards when you get promoted?  Call up Vanguard and have them sell you the bullion separately.  They are attached with glue, peel them off and fabric glue the new one on, you can't even tell afterwards.

CAP1005L: Female Blank Shoulder Board
CAP1005M: Male Blank Shoulder Board

CAP1004S: Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)
CAP1004T: Technical Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)
CAP1004U: Senior Flight Officer Bullion (Pair)

GREY EPAULET SLEEVES:

CAP0747L: Flight Officer
CAP0747QA: Technical Flight Officer
CAP0747N: Senior Flight Officer

BLUE EPAULET SLEEVES: Non-existant on website.

ULTRAMARINE BLUE EMBROIDERED INSIGNIA:

CAP0744B: Flight Officer
CAP0744A: Technical Flight Officer
CAP0744: Senior Flight Officer

NAVY BLUE EMBROIDERED INSIGNIA:

CAP0744BA: Flight Officer
CAP0744AA: Technical Flight Officer
CAP07440: Senior Flight Officer

GORTEX PARKA SLIDES:

Not available on website.

So it looks like they're almost there...

[DNall]

They or the Hock should be able to do the gortex slides pretty easy. They're already have the blanks for the the other grades. It's just a matter of embroidery. That's also something you could do yourself if need be with a cloth grade & cutout.

I would think vanguard could do the blue slides for CSU (white shirt/blue pants) as well, but that may be more of an issue. The one item you didn't mention is metal grade for CSU service coat. That'll be a problem to get done.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The one item you didn't mention is metal grade for CSU service coat. That'll be a problem to get done.

1Lt, masking tape, correct color nail polish. This wouls have the advantage of adding the additionl stripes

[DNall]

I think that's mentioned earlier in the thread. Shame it has to come to that.

[mmouw]

I agree that it is a shame for measures like stated above. I know one could get creative and make their own, but why? I guess I don't understand why Vanguard has items on their website (with photos) and not have made them or keep them in stock. I recently ordered my IC badge for both blues and BDUs. It amazes me that they have the metal insignia and not the embroidered. I would think it would be easier to make the embroidered.

One other issue that I think is important to address is that National doesn't notate FO grades on ID cards or on line. If we are entering cadets achievements on line and tracking their grade, why not for FOs? In fact most folks I meet with my wife in uniform, think she is a cadet or don't understand what the grade is (which raises some interesting questions from time to time). One person told us the FOs aren't cadets and are not senior members, so what does that mean??? I know that FOs are senior members and considered officers, but I wish that National would rectify the problems that exist. At the very least, ensure that uniform items are available for ALL Grades!!!!!!

[DNall]

FO tracking: Also addressed earlier in the thread. Agreed.

And, that's what you get for being a mean ole cradle robber. jk!!!  I know what you mean. I came up the FO route when I first came in. I paid for it a long time & it sucked.

The best solution I've heard is convert FO grades to Amn/A1C/SrA. Those aren't currently used in the CAP NCO system, yada yada, it's in another thread somewhere.

IC: The make the metal for approval, never do a sample of the embroidered, so it never gets done, just put on a list of lots of other things they need to do.

[JoeTomasone]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

[MIKE]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

[JoeTomasone]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

I see them as related.  If they aren't properly supported, why have them?

[DNall]

Here we go again... A discussion on availability of grade insignia drifts into relevance of the grades.

Actually, this discussion all along has been about all things FO. If someone just wanted to know where to find hard to find insignia, it'd be a two post thread & no one would care. This is about the frustrations of FO-ness, spring-boarding from the simple obvious uniform issue. You have to let people rant a little and get their frustrations & ideas off their chest. That's more important to the health & well-being of CAP than any amount of "best practices" discussion could ever be.

[JayT]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

How is it confusing, exactly?

[Major Carrales]

What I don't understand is why we can't treat an under 21 Senior Member as we do for a Senior Member OVER 21.   If you are not a former cadet officer, you become SMWOG and promote as normal.

The way we do it now is too confusing, and, as stated in this thread, impractical in certain circumstances.

Why do we need the FO grades at all?   

How is it confusing, exactly?

When my cousin joined CAP with me back in 1998, he was 20, they made him a SMWOG and he promoted all the way to 1st Lt (which I think he did right after this 21st Birthday.)

Personnally, I think the "Flight Officer" grades really serve no purpose for those that "join off the street."  That is, if the FO grades are meant for transition purposes.  Furthermore, if that is so...the FO grades would be almost liek a "punsihment" for a cadet who transitions.

I'm inclined to believe that the FO grade do nothing more that create the "artificial" situation where all CAP Officers are Over 21.  Seems a bit discriminatory and disheartening, especially when a 20 year old "ball of energy," who wil likely give the organization 40 years of service, joins and is told they cannot be CAP Officers.

Still, if it is the rule of the organization, to be it.

[arajca]

IIRC, big blue doesn't want under-21 yo officers as a rule. Yes, there have been exceptions, but they are few and far between. And the circumstances that apply to them do not apply to CAP members. So, since you can't join as a cadet if you're over 18, they needed something...hence the Flight Officer grades.

[ThorntonOL]

I was up to Technical when I turned 21 and didn't really have a problem with it.
Actually I think it's a good idea. You have a cadet who wants to be a senior member and he's just turned 18, give him the Flight Officer rank as it's only recorded in the Squadron and keep an eye on him. Train him like any other senior and when he hits 21 either promote him to equilvalent grade or make him go through the ranks like anyone else joining post 21 age. (Basically if he's fit for the rank he is "holding" as a FO give the equivalent to him after he's 21.)
It's really a matter of walking the walk and not just talking the talk. This way you can correct any "mistakes" before he(she) actually has any real rank.

[JoeTomasone]

How is it confusing, exactly?

OK, so apparently everyone who initially joins as a SM but is under 21 becomes a SMWOG and does the same progression as an over-21 SM - Level I, Level II, etc, but they get FO grades instead of 1st/2nd Lt & Captain.

So two questions: is a FO considered to be subordinate to a 2d. Lt.?  

What does a FO/TFO/SFO become at age 21?   If they translate like this:

FO = 2d Lt

TFO = 1st. Lt.

SFO = Capt.


..Then that makes no sense since they completely bypass the time-in-grade required of over-21 members - (21 months to reach SFO vs. 36 months to reach Capt).

Now for a former Cadet, I can accept this - but for a first-time member who just happens to be under 21?

The confusion also stems from the fact that I cannot find anything in the regs that translates a FO grade to a "regular" officer grade for anyone other than former cadets (CAPR 35-5, pp. 11, fg. .

It's also confusing since I do not know why CAP feels that we must treat those between ages 18 and 21 differently than those over 21.  There's no legal issue that I am aware of (such as the legitimate issue of having Cadet GTLs required to be over age 18).

And to keep this on topic, if it makes little sense, and there's obviously little support from National in terms of getting insignia, why not eliminate them?   You'd never see Vanguard run out of 2nd. Lt. insignia.....

[arajca]

Ref CAPR 35-5, Figure 2. Only former cadets get the direct transfer. Others get the time in grade credited toward the promotion, i.e. SFO for 12 months means they still have to do 6 months as a 1st Lt to get Capt.

FO's do not completely bypass the TIG requirements completely.

As for why we have FO's, ask the Air Force.

[JoeTomasone]

Ref CAPR 35-5, Figure 2. Only former cadets get the direct transfer. Others get the time in grade credited toward the promotion, i.e. SFO for 12 months means they still have to do 6 months as a 1st Lt to get Capt.

FO's do not completely bypass the TIG requirements completely.

That's what I get for skipping to the FO section of 35-5.       That does clear it up.

[stratoflyer]

I've skimmed around these pages, but how exactly does a FO stand in terms of grade? I view them a a senior NCO type of thing, getting ready for the officer ranks.

Why not get rid of those and use senior member NCO ranks, not just for the former military folks. Just a thought. Fire away.

[DNall]

I was up to Technical when I turned 21 and didn't really have a problem with it.
Actually I think it's a good idea. You have a cadet who wants to be a senior member and he's just turned 18, give him the Flight Officer rank as it's only recorded in the Squadron and keep an eye on him. Train him like any other senior and when he hits 21 either promote him to equilvalent grade or make him go through the ranks like anyone else joining post 21 age. (Basically if he's fit for the rank he is "holding" as a FO give the equivalent to him after he's 21.)
It's really a matter of walking the walk and not just talking the talk. This way you can correct any "mistakes" before he(she) actually has any real rank.

So former cadets &/or 18-20 adults are on probation, but any 21+ yahoo off the street gets to be an officer w/o that probation period? In what world does that sound like it's okay?

I actually agree that people are on average not mature enough to be CAP officers prior to 21, but I'd also like to see a lot of other requirements and training also, which necessitates an alternative, which is where I start talking about an enlisted system.

OK, so apparently everyone who initially joins as a SM but is under 21 becomes a SMWOG and does the same progression as an over-21 SM - Level I, Level II, etc, but they get FO grades instead of 1st/2nd Lt & Captain.

So two questions: is a FO considered to be subordinate to a 2d. Lt.?  

What does a FO/TFO/SFO become at age 21?   If they translate like this:

FO = 2d Lt

TFO = 1st. Lt.

SFO = Capt.


..Then that makes no sense since they completely bypass the time-in-grade required of over-21 members - (21 months to reach SFO vs. 36 months to reach Capt).

Now for a former Cadet, I can accept this - but for a first-time member who just happens to be under 21?

The confusion also stems from the fact that I cannot find anything in the regs that translates a FO grade to a "regular" officer grade for anyone other than former cadets (CAPR 35-5, pp. 11, fg. .

It's also confusing since I do not know why CAP feels that we must treat those between ages 18 and 21 differently than those over 21.  There's no legal issue that I am aware of (such as the legitimate issue of having Cadet GTLs required to be over age 18).

And to keep this on topic, if it makes little sense, and there's obviously little support from National in terms of getting insignia, why not eliminate them?   You'd never see Vanguard run out of 2nd. Lt. insignia.....

PD requirements are the same. TIG is 3mos to FO, 12 to TFO, 18 to SFO, IIRC. FOs actually get screwed ont he TIG a bit if they don't join right at their 18th Bday or get behind even a couple months on the progression. I a couple months after my 18th BDay, about to pin SFO before I turned 21, ended up 1LT & had to wait a while for Capt. It's not a well designed or thought out system that does tend to screw over those younger members in the TIG/promotions aspect.

FO/TFO/SFO outranks SMWOG, but is subordinate to 2Lt. It's basically like a warrant officer.

Why not get rid of those and use senior member NCO ranks, not just for the former military folks. Just a thought. Fire away.

That's my opinion as well. Specifically:
1) All members join as Amn Basic versus SMWOG. No change to the SMWOG uniform.
2) FO/TFO/SFO change to Amn/A1C/SrA. Those grade are not used by the CAP NCO system, are readily avail, rules already set, etc. No change to the program.

Certainly if I had my way I'd like a more extensive enlisted system for all members with a process of qual/selection/trng to become an officer, but that's a different topic. The simple version I just mentioned seems like a good fix to me.