Curry Voucher?

[xray328]

We blindly followed "bring what's on the list" and were later told we could of gotten away with 2. But we kept hearing "follow the list" so that's what we did.

How many kids stick around for "next year"? Vanguard couldn't care less.

[abdsp51]

The old uniform program supplies came from the AAFES warehouse in San Antonio, the same warehouse that issues uniforms to the trainees at BMT.  Guess what they probably had 1 or 2 people processing things for CAP in conjunction with Ma Blues requirements.  It was a system that had it's flaws the biggest one was timely tracking and shipping of the uniforms. 

And for those that want to cry AAFES is cheaper guess what you are looking at over $100 for a set of blues just the SS shirt combo is over $100 and that's not including the price of the v/u-neck shirts.  So a hundred dollar voucher isn't going to cover everything and AAFES doesn't bundle items together to save the customer bucks.

AAFES and Vanguard will not merge for anything.  Vanguard sells our items and that is whom NHQ has deemed is the supplier since we do not have the bookstore any more. AAFES is for profit like Vanguard however AAFES kicks back a lot of their profits back to the bases it serves for MWR. 

[xray328]

Captain, this isn't about "our" fees for encampment at all. Wing does an outstanding job with our encampment. 

I just don't agree with the argument that encampments cost the same as other summer camps so lets just call it good.  AAFES could supply the uniforms necessary for our purposes at a much cheaper price over Vanguard. If I'm spending $500 for encampment fine, but I'd rather see that go towards the cadets than spending three times as much on uniform items than is necessary.

[xray328]

The old uniform program supplies came from the AAFES warehouse in San Antonio, the same warehouse that issues uniforms to the trainees at BMT.  Guess what they probably had 1 or 2 people processing things for CAP in conjunction with Ma Blues requirements.  It was a system that had it's flaws the biggest one was timely tracking and shipping of the uniforms. 

And for those that want to cry AAFES is cheaper guess what you are looking at over $100 for a set of blues just the SS shirt combo is over $100 and that's not including the price of the v/u-neck shirts.  So a hundred dollar voucher isn't going to cover everything and AAFES doesn't bundle items together to save the customer bucks.

AAFES and Vanguard will not merge for anything.  Vanguard sells our items and that is whom NHQ has deemed is the supplier since we do not have the bookstore any more. AAFES is for profit like Vanguard however AAFES kicks back a lot of their profits back to the bases it serves for MWR.

Is there any reason we couldn't of just put Vanguard under AAFES? Supply cadets with uniforms at those prices and use the extra folks to get them out faster? The system could of been fixed.

We are in the "total force", AAFES supplies uniforms for the rest of the force, can't we be included?  I just can't understand the need for Vanguard.  Fix AAFES, get the Vanguard folks over there in a "CAP Uniform Processing " role, have them be a division of AAFES.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We blindly followed "bring what's on the list" and were later told we could of gotten away with 2. But we kept hearing "follow the list" so that's what we did.

How many kids stick around for "next year"? Vanguard couldn't care less.

I hope you provided feedback to the staff/wing DCP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Captain, this isn't about "our" fees for encampment at all. Wing does an outstanding job with our encampment. 

I just don't agree with the argument that encampments cost the same as other summer camps so lets just call it good.  AAFES could supply the uniforms necessary for our purposes at a much cheaper price over Vanguard. If I'm spending $500 for encampment fine, but I'd rather see that go towards the cadets than spending three times as much on uniform items than is necessary.

Wing has very little direct work with encampment when it comes to these things. I work with Spring, due to the format we can get away with ONE set, and due to the wonderful support from the navy cost around half of what summer does.

Since you're newer to the program, you missed most of the AAFES issues. It wasn't workable, albeit free...if you got the uniform. I don't like the fix, but it is what it is.

[xray328]

Understood.  I'm applying for a Spring TO slot, I look forward to meeting and learning from you sir.

[Ned]

Perhaps you don't remember the days when the Air Force provided blues for the cadets, including shoes. 

Actually, I do.  IIRC, we gave up on buying shoes after about a year since funding was tight and mail order shoes did not fit correctly as often as parents and cadets would have liked.

But I also remember that for the great majority of our history, cadets received no free uniforms at all.  (A few squadrons screened uniforms or had other resources, however.)  Nearly a million former cadets from that era somehow managed to become Dynamic American Aerospace leaders.  Don't get me wrong, as the parent of a former cadet I'm glad that cadets receive some assistance today.  I know it can be important to many families.

As others have pointed out, CAP is more expensive than any of us would like.  I'm willing to entertain thoughts and ideas on how we can better deal with that.

As the above has noted, most of us don't live near a base or find it impossible to get on the base if we find one.

Undoubtedly true.  That is why Vanguard is an important resource for members who cannot make it to AF clothing sales.  Other members find other sources, including eBay, military surplus, relatives, etc.  But Vanguard is there to assist members.

For Vangaurd to get to be the exclusive provider for CAP items, the Air Force should have negotiated that Vanguard would provide the initial Cadet Uniform for a fixed fee of $100.00 or so. 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Vanguard is indeed the exclusive provider for CAP-specific items like most CAP insignia, but members are free to purchase the uniform clothing items anywhere.  If there is an on-line retailer who sells milspec AF uniform items in cadet sizes for less than VG, I'd be happy to hear about it and share it here on CAPTalk.

In theory we could subsidize cadet uniform costs as you describe, but the money has to come from somewhere.  Currently the AF graciously makes available appropriated dollars for cadet uniforms.  That's the Curry Voucher Program.  If there was enough money in the pot, we would be glad to buy every cadet a full set of blues, BDUs, insignia, and footwear.  And pay for alterations.  And replace them as the cadets grow or wear the uniforms out.

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

I don't know why CAP can't furnish an AFEES Catalogue to each new cadet and let them order their uniform from them.  For someone (the Air Force)that claims they are so inerested in the Cadet Program they sure have a funny way of showing it.

You know that CAP-USAF members read CAPTalk, right?  I'm not sure that this sort of language will persuade them to increase the support.

For the record, the AF support of our cadet program is universally good and getting better.  Just look at the CEAP investment this year.  Hundreds of thousands of dollars.  We are grateful to them for their outstanding support.

Please refer to our previous threads on this to see the very real reasons members cannot simply order things at AAFES.com.  (Their entire eligibility and fulfillment system is tied to DEERS.  By law CAP cannot be in DEERS.)  We tried various work-arounds for years as part of the old FCU system.  We really, really tried.  But we could not make it work effectively.  Thus, to improve service to acceptable levels, we created the CVP.

I truly think this is a terrible situation and will hurt our program severely over the next few years.  There was a big push on for inner city kids to join.  Well, you just show me some inner city kids that can lay out $200.00 for a uniform to earn their fist rank and then shell out another $200-300 for BDU's and boots.  Ain't happening.  I think someone needs to revisit this idea and quickly. 

We know that CP is too expensive for many cadets.  We get that.  We really, really do.  That's why things like the CVP and CEAP are so important.

Again, any of the leadership would love to hear any ideas about how to reduce the costs for our cadets. 

I'm listening.

[Ned]

Is there any reason we couldn't of just put Vanguard under AAFES? Supply cadets with uniforms at those prices and use the extra folks to get them out faster? The system could of been fixed.

We are in the "total force", AAFES supplies uniforms for the rest of the force, can't we be included?  I just can't understand the need for Vanguard.  Fix AAFES, get the Vanguard folks over there in a "CAP Uniform Processing " role, have them be a division of AAFES.

You know AAFES does not make the items that they sell, right?  AAFES buys clothing and insignia from manufacturers.  Indeed, VG is one of their largest insignia suppliers.  I'm not sure how it would help to put an AAFES middleman between the members and VG.

And as nice as it sounds to have VG be a division of AAFES, there are rules that prevent the government from taking over private businesses.   

Remember, members are absolutely authorized to buy uniform parts from AAFES per AF regulations.  But you have to physically visit an AF clothing sales store to do so.  Many members do not live close enough to an AFB for that to work for them.  That's why have VG to serve those members.

Thank you for your service to CAP.  It is appreciated.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

[xray328]

Thank you Col.

Why didn't the AF just get more folks to fix the deficiencies over at AAFES?  Obviously waiting months for a uniform wasn't acceptable but they provided a more appropriate product for our cadets needs at a more reasonable price.  Why didn't they just add a few more folks down in San Antonio, maybe shake up management and get the problem fixed that way?

[Ned]

Thank you Col.

Why didn't the AF just get more folks to fix the deficiencies over at AAFES?  Obviously waiting months for a uniform wasn't acceptable but they provided a more appropriate product for our cadets needs at a more reasonable price.  Why didn't they just add a few more folks down in San Antonio, maybe shake up management and get the problem fixed that way?

We did repeatedly try over a period of years.  Not only did we try, but our colleagues at CAP-USAF tried as well.  The problem, as is often the case, was money.  It would have cost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to modify the existing DEERS based AAFES ordering and fulfillment system.  And that's if AAFES wanted to do it, which they mostly didn't.  Because they have a pretty good system (from their perspective) and didn't want anyone mucking around with it.  And "adding a few more folks" is, again, a pretty expensive option.  We're talking about civil servants' salaries and benefits.  Just a couple of warehouse persons could easily run to nearly $200,000.  Which nobody was volunteering to give up.

But maybe the bigger picture is this -- AAFES wasn't really "deficient."  Their systems work fine - for all of their customers that order on-line.  We can't do that, so what developed was a series of "work-arounds" that tried to graft a manual system onto an automated system.  Hammering that square peg doesn't make it fit into the round hole any easier.

The CVP is a great upgrade.  Uniforms arrive in days instead of months.  Cadets have more options on how to spend the voucher funds.  Win-win.

[MSG Mac]

AAFEES and CAP had their problems, long delays in ordering and receiving  uniforms, lack of communication, etc. The Air Force uniform system was NEVER designed to accommodate children sizes (12-16 year olds), which caused the delays and non-receipt of uniforms. For those complaint that $100 is not enough, consider that the  voucher is 3x what the cadet spends on annual dues. While AF bases may be a a distance, it may be worthwhile to load cadets into a van and make the trip.

[Slim]

While AF bases may be a a distance, it may be worthwhile to load cadets into a van and make the trip.

Back in my WIWAC days, this is what we did.  Every few months, we'd schedule a supply run to Selfridge ANGB to visit their clothing sales store.  It wasn't very far for us, maybe an hour, but not just a hop skip and jump.  Other units in northern Michigan would make a trip to Wurtsmith AFB or Alpena CRTC, anywhere from 1-3 hours.

Just about any air guard or reserve base will have some kind of exchange or outlet for uniform purchases.  Call ahead and check with them to see what they have in stock, or what you would need to do to order from them.  The exchange at Alpena CRTC isn't much more than a 7-11 with a rack of snivel gear, no uniform items at all, but the manager has always told us that all we needed to do is call her a a couple weeks ahead of time with what we need and she'd be more than happy to order it delivered so we can pick it up when we get to encampment.  Same goes for an exchange on an Army post or camp.  Make a day trip out of it, they're good squadron bonding opportunities.  Plan it right, make sure you follow the access procedures, and if you think ahead, maybe see if they have anything worth touring on the base.

[NC Hokie]

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

IMHO, a lot if this occurs because the old and new blues programs go through the cadet and his family instead of through the local squadron.  Sending the uniforms through the local squadron and giving some teeth to the recovery program (like a bill from NHQ for non-returned uniforms) would be much better that what we're doing now.

[LTC Don]

But there isn't that kind of money in the pot.  Nor do I see any signs that the AF is likely to double or triple the size of the uniform grant.  Because from their perspective, they are not sure they are getting their money's worth as it is.  (See our previous discussions about the Curry Voucher where we described the issues the AF has - cadet renewal rates and the notion that a significant portion of the uniform money given to us by the AF winds up hanging the closets of a lot of ex-members.)

IMHO, a lot if this occurs because the old and new blues programs go through the cadet and his family instead of through the local squadron.  Sending the uniforms through the local squadron and giving some teeth to the recovery program (like a bill from NHQ for non-returned uniforms) would be much better that what we're doing now.

I get it about the AAFES and DEERS system and all that.  What I haven't heard is why CAP couldn't have moved into the same supply chain system AFJROTC uses.  Public school students aren't in the DEERS system, yet they seem to be nicely outfitted every year.  I understand this isn't the 80's, but I received a full dress uniform with insignia and ribbons back in 1980 and 1981.  I don't know what AFJROTC students receive now.

Seems to me that the same supply chain that feeds the AFJROTC requirements can supply CAP's requirements as the official Auxiliary, and part of the 'Total Force' and all that.  Made even easier if the allotment is shipped to the wing headquarters and distributed from there.

I suggested to our supply folks several weeks ago regarding existing expendables that wing could establish a web-based zen-cart online ordering system restricted to assigned supply officers to place orders, and the squadrons could then pick their orders from Wing once it was complete (or pay wing to have it shipped to the unit).

I think the Vanguard solution presented an easy way to keep the cadet uniform system working.  I don't believe it's the most cost-effective.

[xray328]

Col Lee, there's some great ideas here that I hope NHQ considers.

A group purchase by Wing from the same source as the AFJROTC units use sounds like a great plan, obviously they have youth sizes.  Squadrons have sample sizes on hand, Wing holds the uniform inventory and the supply officer or CDC places the order through Wing.  Maybe Vanguard just stocks the big ticket/senior member/specialty items (insignia included) and Wing handles cadet uniforms?

[Ned]

Folks, I appreciate the suggestions.  I really do, but I've had meetings with both the ROTC and JROTC commanders at the Holm Center at Maxwell.  And we discussed this very thing (as part of a larger discussion about synergies), and the answer is that the ROTC folks are part of AF supply chain, just like every other unit in the AF.  They requisition stuff, and it appears through logistics channels.  No civilian organizations are part of that system.  Sure would be nice, though.

But be careful what you wish for.  Accountability for government property brings with it considerable responsibility and massive bureaucracy.  As in personal liability for loss of accountability.  Would any CAP commander want to be personally liable to Uncle Sam because Timmy moved out of state and the unit did not recover his uniforms?  Reports of survey, locked supply rooms, and thousands of dollars of inventory to be securely stored, periodically inventoried, and substantial record keeping.  ROTC units have a full time supply person.  (JROTC units generally don't, but are supported by region headquarters that do.)

I guess my point is that we did indeed think very long and hard about alternatives to the old FCU program before we carefully created the CVP.

[AirAux]

So what happened with the "basket" that Vanguard was going to set up with the "basic" uniform parts for $100.00??

[LSThiker]

Reports of survey

Come on Ned.  Reports of survey are fun.  Periodic 100% inventories are always a good way to blow a few days at the office

How many did you get to participate in?

[arajca]

Col Lee, there's some great ideas here that I hope NHQ considers.

A group purchase by Wing from the same source as the AFJROTC units use sounds like a great plan, obviously they have youth sizes.  Squadrons have sample sizes on hand, Wing holds the uniform inventory and the supply officer or CDC places the order through Wing.  Maybe Vanguard just stocks the big ticket/senior member/specialty items (insignia included) and Wing handles cadet uniforms?

As you're looking to pawn the uniform issue and inventory off on wing, let me put forth some information as a wing LG: We have limited space just like units do. We are volunteers just like you are. Many of us also work at units and hold multiple duty assignments just like you. Inventorying uniforms is not an easy job - I did that for a living for a few years.

As for space, I received a notice we're getting kicked out for a year or more while the AF renovates the building we're in. I'm working on finding alternative storage solutions, but we may not be able to keep doing uniform issues due to not having anywhere to store uniforms. Sardak are looking for some space, at least for wing offices, but there are multiple organizations in the same building who are also looking for space.