So, can anyone answer why no military ribbons on CAP distinctive uniforms?

[PHall]

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

Last time I looked we had three missions that are mandated by the Congress.

1. The Cadet Program.

2. Emergency Services.

3. Aerospace Education.

[PWK-GT]

As I have been invoked now 3 times, I will magically appear and comment.

What I said:

But as for my Commander? I can't speak for him, but I'm about 98 1/2% sure he'd find a concern like this, above all others, to be quite silly.

Quite silly indeed. This kind of hand wringing is usually evident early on with newer members, and quite quickly explained as a 'non-starter' when setting the expectations. You agree to the rules of the game as in place at time of joining....and move on. This isn't a CAP-specific issue, I tell personnel under me at my day job the same thing: If it means you have to vote with your feet, then so be it...and thank you for your service. Next contestant.....

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

While I would agree that a good commander strives to keep his people engaged (that tends to be a major retention tool here, but YMMV)....it is firmly on the individual to keep themselves 'energized'. Twenty members have twenty attitudes / goals / happiness triggers, and I could devote 80 hours a week trying to satisfy just one of them....let alone 50 of them. If it's supported in the Regs or such, then it is something I will look into. I could also buy everyone a sportscar, or new snowblower to 'keep them energized'.....but I'm not going to. How they energize or self-motivate is up to them, and something that will set them apart from their peers for recognition sake.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

There aren't, but putting my former-psychology-student hat on for a moment...

I believe most know about Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs.

http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp

Basically, it says that most human beings want to be appreciated for what they do.  Some find that in their workplace (this has been steadily decreasing).  Some find it in their religious affiliation.  Some find it in volunteer work, such as CAP.  We do not get paid monetarily, and a relatively small percentage of us will ever have the satisfaction that comes from direct involvement in actually saving a life.

So, what CAP does is provide (mostly) earned ranks and ribbons to say "good show, job well done."  Unfortunately, the way some of those are handed out to friend-of-a-friend-who-sucked-up-to-someone-at-Wing cheapens it a bit.

But in our hyper-individualistic culture those who are seen as "go-getters" usually get the recognition and those who aren't (or whose work is largely behind-the-scenes), usually don't.  That is true for CAP too.

[MSG Mac]

Please enlighten us as to where it says that part of our "mission" is make our members "feel good" about themselves.

So, what CAP does is provide (mostly) earned ranks and ribbons to say "good show, job well done."  Unfortunately, the way some of those are handed out to friend-of-a-friend-who-sucked-up-to-someone-at-Wing cheapens it a bit.

But in our hyper-individualistic culture those who are seen as "go-getters" usually get the recognition and those who aren't (or whose work is largely behind-the-scenes), usually don't.  That is true for CAP too.

The problem with getting awards isn't due to suck-ups or patronage, it's that few people actually fill out the form 120 to reward these members. When I was a Wing DP, I had to beg  for nominations for Member of the year and for people to recognize their members. So if you have someone who is performing above and beyond fill out the F120 and send it off to the next higher echelon. Takes five minutes to fill out and can be electronically signed if necessary.

[ol'fido]

As I have been invoked now 3 times, I will magically appear and comment.

What I said:

But as for my Commander? I can't speak for him, but I'm about 98 1/2% sure he'd find a concern like this, above all others, to be quite silly.

Quite silly indeed. This kind of hand wringing is usually evident early on with newer members, and quite quickly explained as a 'non-starter' when setting the expectations. You agree to the rules of the game as in place at time of joining....and move on. This isn't a CAP-specific issue, I tell personnel under me at my day job the same thing: If it means you have to vote with your feet, then so be it...and thank you for your service. Next contestant.....

We're all volunteers.  Part of all of our mission is to keep all volunteers engaged and energized.  Can't say this discussion has done that for me.

While I would agree that a good commander strives to keep his people engaged (that tends to be a major retention tool here, but YMMV)....it is firmly on the individual to keep themselves 'energized'. Twenty members have twenty attitudes / goals / happiness triggers, and I could devote 80 hours a week trying to satisfy just one of them....let alone 50 of them. If it's supported in the Regs or such, then it is something I will look into. I could also buy everyone a sportscar, or new snowblower to 'keep them energized'.....but I'm not going to. How they energize or self-motivate is up to them, and something that will set them apart from their peers for recognition sake.

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

[PWK-GT]

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

[a2capt]

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

Ya.. they get rid of the ones they think will be lousy neighbors, *before* they get there themselves!

Awards are one thing that can be used to keep Members happy, and awards cost everyone practically nothing. Just the time to fill out the recommendation. Used consistently when you see someone go above and beyond, constantly shows up when there's a need, brings new ideas to the table, and motivates others to do the same.

I'm not talking about giving them out like Berlin airlift candy drop, but just realizing that on of the tools available to commanders, and staff for recognition are various awards, that cost nothing to give when the time is right.

[bflynn]

This seems to have degraded into the discussion that people wanted to have so they could have something to complain about.  Please go on with until you're all satisified, but it's been far too great of a day for me to share in the negativity.

Why?  I got to make a couple of great training sorties today...

[ol'fido]

I can't do this at my day job.....I work at a prison.

This is Illinois......doesnt the Governor let them go anyways? 

He's allowed. I'm not. They tend to frown on that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

This seems to have degraded into the discussion that people wanted to have so they could have something to complain about.  Please go on with until you're all satisified, but it's been far too great of a day for me to share in the negativity.

Why?  I got to make a couple of great training sorties today...

Really? While offtopic, this is turning into a hilarious conversation about our state politics.

[RADIOMAN015]

Not to be argumentative, but why would an Air Force instruction apply to me?  I was never in the Air Force and I'm not now.  The Air Force doesn't control the CAP Distinctive Uniform, as far as they're concerned, it is civilian wear.  Nor does an AFI apply to a veteran who isn't in the military any more.


The only thing I've heard so far that makes any sense is that once upon a time someone decided they wanted CAP uniforms to be distinctive.

The AF uniform regulations would not apply to you because CAP members (acting as CAP members) are considered as civilians and have no protocol standing in the USAF, other than the typical customs/courtesies that would be extended to ANY civilians.

At least what I've observed in the past,  American Legion & VFW uniforms have had their members wearing their "earned" military ribbons on their AL/VFW specific uniforms. 

I see NO reason why the AF can't change their regulation that specifically allows the wear of AF ribbons on CAP (as well as other patriotic organization uniforms).  (Perhaps this is congressional interest item to ensure that all military services allow this via their regulations)  HOWEVER, until that happens one should be complying with what the AF and CAP have agreed to regarding the corporate uniform wear and what can be worn on it. BTW the same argument could be made as to why CAP ribbons (which are civilian awards) are allowed to be worn on an AF type uniforms by adults.  Logically something is missing.

RM   
       

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They are civilian awards, but they are authorised by a military service, just as awards for the CGAUX are, and in fact the CGAUX can earn actual CG military awards, unlike us.

Although I've never seen it, I've read that some SDF's (which are military), allow their members to wear CAP ribbons, and of course most know that Army/Air National Guard personnel cannot wear state awards they've earned when in Federal service.

[Stonewall]

Go to www.militarysignatures.com and you can sport your ribbons in every post here on CAP Talk 

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.  Show the pride you have through your actions and prove to others that you're worth more than the ribbons you could wear on your chest.  Be a quiet professional volunteer and you'll be noticed for things that are worth much more than cloth ribbons.

[bflynn]

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.

Well...no, I don't.  I think it's important to keep military accomplishments alive.  It's not about bragging or showing off, although it's obvious that is what some people think. 

I agree that execution and results are so much more important. 

And I'll still wear my CAP ribbons on my VFW and USSVI uniforms. 

[FlyTiger77]

Seriously, though, I understand your pride in military service, but at some point you have to move on and let it go.

Well...no, I don't...

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think it was Sir Winston Churchill who said "what's the good of busting your guts if at the end of the day all you're left with is a mess on the floor?"

[Private Investigator]

I see NO reason why the AF can't change their regulation that specifically allows the wear of AF ribbons on CAP (as well as other patriotic organization uniforms).       

I have seen homeless men wearing AF ribbons on their clothes. Should I call the USAF Security Forces on them?   

[bflynn]

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

LOL

Maybe I can get some traction?  And that wouldn't be beating my head against the wall?  LOL.

Nah, I don't really care enough even to write it down.

[FlyTiger77]

At some point, you discover that beating your head against the wall only gives you a headache. (Don't ask me how I know this.  )


The short answer is that it is not authorized. The reason for the 'why' is a matter of conjecture that seems to have been well covered here.

If you feel this strongly about it, draft a proposed change to CAPM 39-1 (or CAPR 39-1, if it comes out before you get the proposal finished) and submit it through your chain of command. Maybe you can get some traction as it goes up the chain.

LOL

Maybe I can get some traction?  And that wouldn't be beating my head against the wall?  LOL.

Nah, I don't really care enough even to write it down.

Of course, it is your call. If you send the proposal up, at least you can get a Yes/No answer.

I think I know what the answer would be, but you never know.

[bflynn]

Yeah, well that's probably the real truth - I know there's about .001% chance that it would even get to someone at the top to make a decision and the answer then would be 100% no.  I think anyone who has spent more than a week experience CAP culture knows that answer.

So why would anyone even waste time doing anything above a squadron or maybe wing level?