ABU and AFJROTC

[shoresfinest]

i know it's been beaten to death, but why is it that JROTC can get the ABU and CAP cant dont they ultimately report to the same people? i understand cap regs are different, but why does the USAF give AFJROTC a go on the use of the abu, and a no go/ indecisive decision? i am in both programs and know the vast differences, but this is slightly confusing, since its USAF that gives the go/no go on at least giving CAP the option whether national takes it or not

[Cap'n]

Do you know by chance if all AFJROTC units only use ABU's now, or if they still allow BDU's? I'm starting next year, and am a little curious.

[shoresfinest]

they still allow the BDU, but, they're slowly merging away from it, btw AFJROTC BDU regs and CAP BDU regs are slightly different

[HGjunkie]

You're right, this has been beaten to death. I think in the past 2 weeks there's been 4~5 threads about it. And I think 2 of them discuss this very question.

[PA Guy]

AFJROTC doesn't have senior members like CAP.  CAP cadets aren't the problem in my opinion.

[shoresfinest]

AFJROTC does have SASI's and ASASI's  and whole air force active duty staff, but they have different view points then sm's

[abdsp51]

There is also a higher degree of accountability with JROTC as well and it brings in a degree of funding from Uncle Sam for the school district.  I know the schools here get federal funding if they have dependents enrolled.  And the ASIs, and AASIs are retired AF who should know how to conduct themselves.

[Short Field]

AFJROTC does have SASI's and ASASI's  and whole air force active duty staff, but they have different view points then sm's

SASIs are recently retired USAF Officers and ASASIs are recently retired USAF NCOs.  Both must meet body fat standards.  No comparison at all to CAP Senior Members.

[shoresfinest]

they're actually semi-retired, they're in reserves, but cannot be activated for any on base duty other then JROTC related duties

[abdsp51]

Check your facts they are retired from AD AF or Reserves and it has only been within the past few years that Reserves have been allowed. And dependent on how long they have been retired they could be called back to active duty by an act of congress.  There is no semi retired or retired. 

[Short Field]

they're actually semi-retired, they're in reserves, but cannot be activated for any on base duty other then JROTC related duties

They are retired.  They draw their retired pay plus whatever the school district adds as an incentive.  The JROTC instructors I talked to expect to at least match their full active duty pay and some actually exceed it.  From the AFJROTC FAQs:  Officers who meet the following prerequisites may apply: Baccalaureate degree or higher from an accredited institution; permanently retired as an officer with at least 20 years of active duty; served last year of active duty as an officer;...

[shoresfinest]

regardless, can we move back to the main topic?

[RogueLeader]

regardless, can we move back to the main topic?

We have.  The search function is your friend.

You're right, this has been beaten to death. I think in the past 2 weeks there's been 4~5 threads about it. And I think 2 of them discuss this very question.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

[PHall]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

[RiverAux]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

True, but totally irrelevant.  Assuming that CAP continues the 70 year tradition of wearing AF-style uniforms, what is the logical basis for having different phase in times for AFJROTC and CAP? 

[Extremepredjudice]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

Maybe we should do the evil brother thing and spoil AFJROTC's good name!   
Destroy ma blue's favorite vase then plant it in AFJROTC's room.

CAP should've requested ABUs at the same time as AFJROTC. IMHO.

[abdsp51]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

Maybe we should do the evil brother thing and spoil AFJROTC's good name!   
Destroy ma blue's favorite vase then plant it in AFJROTC's room.

CAP should've requested ABUs at the same time as AFJROTC. IMHO.

Yep. 

[PHall]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

True, but totally irrelevant.  Assuming that CAP continues the 70 year tradition of wearing AF-style uniforms, what is the logical basis for having different phase in times for AFJROTC and CAP?

AFJROTC has fewer layers of "decision makers" to go through. And they talk directly to the Holm Center-AU-AETC-HAF.
We have to decide to make the request in the first place, then route it up through CAP-USAF and then to Holm Center, etc...
Our biggest stumbling block is getting the request out of the CAP Corperation.

We didn't seem to have these problems before we "seperated" from the Air Force and became much more "Corperate".
Of course that was when National was staffed with AD Air Force personnel and DAF civilian employees too.
There weren't any CAP Corperate employees back then.

[abdsp51]

I think the biggest thing that's been hit on is that a request has to be made.  Does anyone know if that has been done?  I know when the ABUs were first set to roll out we were going to have the option of tucking the blouse in due to the bottom pockets being removed.  Long story short that didn't happen along with some other things because "troops didn't like it".  I know the other thread there was the notice per DOD policy but exceptions can always be made to policy.

[RiverAux]

While it is true that CAP has not made any official request for ABUs, but does anyone think that this is because CAP's leaders just hadn't considered it?  That they forgot? 

My theory is that they were informally told by CAP-USAF at some point that they shouldn't make that request just yet.  Early on this was probably due to legitimate supply issues.  But, if they've been putting AFJROTC in them, that is no longer a valid reason.

That being said, with all the rumors of another possible AF uniform switch, I'm actually on board with NHQ taking a slow approach to making a request now.  If there is any chance that the AF may switch in the next few years, switching to ABUs now wouldn't make much sense.  But, if the AF is committed to the ABU, then we should start the switch immediately (and go to white letters on navy blue patches and tapes)

[MSG Mac]

PLease check the note on CAP's National website re: ABU's.

DoD policy prevents the transfer, donation, and sale of digitized camouflage pattern uniforms to anyone outside the USAF with very few exceptions. Unfortunately Civil Air Patrol is not one of the exceptions. This prohibition is necessary to protect the unique technologies used in developing the uniform.

The National Board has placed a hold on all uniform changes pending a review of the entire CAP uniform structure. This review is ongoing by the CAP National Uniform Committee and a draft report will be presented to the Summer National Board Meeting in Baltimore in August 2012. The presentation will be available online via web stream but all CAP members are encouraged to attend.

From E-services dated 28 December 2011

[abdsp51]

Are you referring to the eservices announcement that was mentioned on another thread?

[abdsp51]

That being said, with all the rumors of another possible AF uniform switch, I'm actually on board with NHQ taking a slow approach to making a request now.  If there is any chance that the AF may switch in the next few years, switching to ABUs now wouldn't make much sense.  But, if the AF is committed to the ABU, then we should start the switch immediately (and go to white letters on navy blue patches and tapes)

Rumors are just that rumors.  I have not heard anything through AF channels both official or unofficial about a switch anytime soon.

[MSG Mac]

Are you referring to the eservices announcement that was mentioned on another thread?

Yes

[RiverAux]

That being said, with all the rumors of another possible AF uniform switch, I'm actually on board with NHQ taking a slow approach to making a request now.  If there is any chance that the AF may switch in the next few years, switching to ABUs now wouldn't make much sense.  But, if the AF is committed to the ABU, then we should start the switch immediately (and go to white letters on navy blue patches and tapes)

Rumors are just that rumors.  I have not heard anything through AF channels both official or unofficial about a switch anytime soon.

Thats why I put several qualifiers in my statement. 

[NCRblues]

That being said, with all the rumors of another possible AF uniform switch, I'm actually on board with NHQ taking a slow approach to making a request now.  If there is any chance that the AF may switch in the next few years, switching to ABUs now wouldn't make much sense.  But, if the AF is committed to the ABU, then we should start the switch immediately (and go to white letters on navy blue patches and tapes)

Rumors are just that rumors.  I have not heard anything through AF channels both official or unofficial about a switch anytime soon.

Considering that the CMSGT of the AF has said publicly several times that ABUs are here to stay by order of the US congress and budget oversight committee......

[abdsp51]

That's what he said last year while I was at NCOA, in fact he said they were in the process of improving the ABU.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

AFJROTC has fewer layers of "decision makers" to go through. And they talk directly to the Holm Center-AU-AETC-HAF.
We have to decide to make the request in the first place, then route it up through CAP-USAF and then to Holm Center, etc...
Our biggest stumbling block is getting the request out of the CAP Corperation.

We didn't seem to have these problems before we "seperated" from the Air Force and became much more "Corperate".
Of course that was when National was staffed with AD Air Force personnel and DAF civilian employees too.
There weren't any CAP Corperate employees back then.

The "corporatist" mindset is one thing that has made CAP so schizoid identity-wise...and has been detrimental to this organisation no end.

I'm wondering if the "corporatists" at the top haven't made the ABU request because ABU's don't come in grey.

[PHall]

AFJROTC has fewer layers of "decision makers" to go through. And they talk directly to the Holm Center-AU-AETC-HAF.
We have to decide to make the request in the first place, then route it up through CAP-USAF and then to Holm Center, etc...
Our biggest stumbling block is getting the request out of the CAP Corperation.

We didn't seem to have these problems before we "seperated" from the Air Force and became much more "Corperate".
Of course that was when National was staffed with AD Air Force personnel and DAF civilian employees too.
There weren't any CAP Corperate employees back then.

The "corporatist" mindset is one thing that has made CAP so schizoid identity-wise...and has been detrimental to this organisation no end.

I'm wondering if the "corporatists" at the top haven't made the ABU request because ABU's don't come in grey.

I honestly think it's because the lines of communication that used to be there are long gone.

We're not part of the family anymore, we're "outsiders".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I honestly think it's because the lines of communication that used to be there are long gone.

We're not part of the family anymore, we're "outsiders".

Too sadly true.

[abdsp51]

There is some grey in ABUs lol.

[Extremepredjudice]

You guys are overlooking the obvious! Dye them grey.

[abdsp51]

or just find something that suits and is ideal.

[a2capt]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off. With the frequency of meetings, most things take at least a couple sessions to hash out. At once a year, or so..  with the next one i August?

[Ned]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off.

The "2 year moratorium" was imposed by the NB.  They can make changes that do not require AF approval at any time, but they have decided not to make any changes until they have received and considered the report of the NUC during the Baltimore NB meeting.

The point concering ABUs that I have been trying to make is that - should the NB decide to request ABUs - that they will start the process at the NB meeting in August.  We will then need several weeks or months for the staff to put the package together and submit it through CAP-USAF.  And given the multiple levels of analysis and approvals within the USAF, it is almost certain that their portion will take many months.  So my personal guess is that we will not see ABUs until mid to late 2013 at the earliest.

But the NB could (and probably will) make changes to our uniforms that do not require AF approval.  Such changes could in theory become effective as soon as staff can publish an ICL.

Or a revised 39-1.   

[MSG Mac]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off. With the frequency of meetings, most things take at least a couple sessions to hash out. At once a year, or so..  with the next one i August?

Next National Board is the winter one which I believe is 1 March.

[shoresfinest]

it does seem that AFJROTC is the favored son, even thought they're only mission is cadet programs......which as we all know is lack-luster in comparison

[PHall]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off. With the frequency of meetings, most things take at least a couple sessions to hash out. At once a year, or so..  with the next one i August?

Next National Board is the winter one which I believe is 1 March.

But the Uniform Committee is not scheduled to present their report until the August meeting.

[RogueLeader]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off.

The "2 year moratorium" was imposed by the NB.  They can make changes that do not require AF approval at any time, but they have decided not to make any changes until they have received and considered the report of the NUC during the Baltimore NB meeting.

The point concering ABUs that I have been trying to make is that - should the NB decide to request ABUs - that they will start the process at the NB meeting in August.  We will then need several weeks or months for the staff to put the package together and submit it through CAP-USAF.  And given the multiple levels of analysis and approvals within the USAF, it is almost certain that their portion will take many months.  So my personal guess is that we will not see ABUs until mid to late 2013 at the earliest.

But the NB could (and probably will) make changes to our uniforms that do not require AF approval.  Such changes could in theory become effective as soon as staff can publish an ICL.

Or a revised 39-1.   

I thought that the AF had to approve ALL uniform changes.

[That Anonymous Guy]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

[RADIOMAN015]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off.

The "2 year moratorium" was imposed by the NB.  They can make changes that do not require AF approval at any time, but they have decided not to make any changes until they have received and considered the report of the NUC during the Baltimore NB meeting.

The point concering ABUs that I have been trying to make is that - should the NB decide to request ABUs - that they will start the process at the NB meeting in August.  We will then need several weeks or months for the staff to put the package together and submit it through CAP-USAF.  And given the multiple levels of analysis and approvals within the USAF, it is almost certain that their portion will take many months.  So my personal guess is that we will not see ABUs until mid to late 2013 at the earliest.

But the NB could (and probably will) make changes to our uniforms that do not require AF approval.  Such changes could in theory become effective as soon as staff can publish an ICL.

Or a revised 39-1.   

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's.  (and of course one has to wonder how this would affect the current green military flight suits, would that change also?)

In contrast, CAP also is trying to gear up its' "branding" marketing efforts and our current options for "field uniforms" dilutes that consistent marketing presentation to the general public, when contrasted with other 'civilian' (AFI 10-2701, chapter 1) disaster relief/support organizations.    I think we need a single field uniform style that EVERYONE CAN WEAR and is cost effective for all including the outer wear for proper protection from the weather elements. 

Furthermore, just the cost to the member (both cadet & senior) in order to completely comply with the military ABU style is significant.     IF adopted hopefully it will be a three to four year transition period (not just two years  )

Got to wonder IF CAP HQ did a survey on changes to the entire membership, what the result would be  Of course here on CAPTALK this is always a "hot button issue" :angel:
RM   
   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's

It there a way to block certain people's posts from popping up on my screen?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's. 

I would really like to see your hard, irrefutable data on that, not just on your WAG's and assumptions.

[RogueLeader]

In contrast, CAP also is trying to gear up its' "branding" marketing efforts and our current options for "field uniforms" dilutes that consistent marketing presentation to the general public, when contrasted with other 'civilian' (AFI 10-2701, chapter 1) disaster relief/support organizations.    I think we need a single field uniform style that EVERYONE CAN WEAR and is cost effective for all including the outer wear for proper protection from the weather elements. 

Can wear, or WILL wear?  Everyone can wear the bbdu.  Not everyone will.

[Brad]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

[lordmonar]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

[Brad]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

Well yes, I knew that much. What I was getting at was that there is no direct chain of command operations level that links the CAP/CC to the AF side, it is all administrative only.

[flyingscotsman]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's. 

I would really like to see your hard, irrefutable data on that, not just on your WAG's and assumptions.

To be fair, he did say "likely a fair amount" which does suggest an opinion. Who here hasn't encountered at least a few of their SM's who give the strong impression they are more interested in playing "military dress up" though? Just because you can't provide hard & irrefutable data doesn't necesarily make it a WAG or an assumption when you have first hand experience with a small sample of those individuals. I'm sure nobody is suggesting ALL or even MOST of our fellow SMs are that way.

[caphornbuckle]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

I was told by a Marine that they consider themselves the "Men's Department" when that is mentioned.

[lordmonar]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

Well yes, I knew that much. What I was getting at was that there is no direct chain of command operations level that links the CAP/CC to the AF side, it is all administrative only.

There is not one on the AFJROTC side either....each unit "belongs" to the school district.  The USAF only controls the curriculm and has "first" pass okay on any instructor applicants.

[SARDOC]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

I was told by a Marine that they consider themselves the "Men's Department" when that is mentioned.

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

I knew one of those once...quite a guy; did a lot of patching up of wounded Marines in Vietnam.  I think he retired as a CWO-2 or 3.  Don't they wear Marine uniforms with Navy insignia?

Bringing the thread (hopefully) back 'round to uniforms again...

There's a local Navy Sea Cadet unit that is pretty strong member-wise and it seems like they do a lot with some of the local Coast Guard.  I see them around now and again.  They look a lot more like the Navy (both adults and cadets) than we ever have looked like the AF.  There seems to be a lot less gastrointestinal turmoil among them about uniforms.  They just take the Navy uniform, slap an identifier on the arm (and different rank insignia for cadets) and a different cap device and, hey, presto, good to go.



It doesn't seem like the Navy rides herd on them watching for the slightest uniform boo-boo...nor does it seem they have a sector of their membership howling about "distinctiveness."

[SarDragon]

And that's the difference between the Navy and the Air Force. They are entirely different cultures, and have been since 1947. I spent 3 years stationed on an overseas air base, and it was scary, and comical, to watch the different ways the two services went about the same tasks.

[bosshawk]

Especially since both services claimed to use the English language as a common denominator.

[Eclipse]

Cadet-centric / cadet-only programs may look like CAP, but in fact they are different paradigms as they do not have adult programs, nor operational situations where members may be in command of military personnel and resources.  That is not the whole puzzle, but it's a significant part of the issue with CAP uniforms.

[SARDOC]

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

I knew one of those once...quite a guy; did a lot of patching up of wounded Marines in Vietnam.  I think he retired as a CWO-2 or 3.  Don't they wear Marine uniforms with Navy insignia?

Bringing the thread (hopefully) back 'round to uniforms again...

There's a local Navy Sea Cadet unit that is pretty strong member-wise and it seems like they do a lot with some of the local Coast Guard.  I see them around now and again.  They look a lot more like the Navy (both adults and cadets) than we ever have looked like the AF.  There seems to be a lot less gastrointestinal turmoil among them about uniforms.  They just take the Navy uniform, slap an identifier on the arm (and different rank insignia for cadets) and a different cap device and, hey, presto, good to go.



It doesn't seem like the Navy rides herd on them watching for the slightest uniform boo-boo...nor does it seem they have a sector of their membership howling about "distinctiveness."

Navy Corpsman, Medical and Religious Personnel assigned to Marine Units do indeed wear Marine Uniforms with the exception of the Dress Blues if they meet Marine Corps standards, including Height and weight and pass the Marine Corps PFT.

Our Cadet Program up until they turn 18 years old can wear the AF style uniform even if they don't meet Height Weight standards.  The only issue is our adult membership must meet CAP H/W just like the Sea Cadet Adult members must meet H/W standards as well in order to wear the navy style uniform or they get to wear a Golf Shirt "Equivalent"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cadet-centric / cadet-only programs may look like CAP, but in fact they are different paradigms as they do not have adult programs, nor operational situations where members may be in command of military personnel and resources.  That is not the whole puzzle, but it's a significant part of the issue with CAP uniforms.

Hmm?

Where would there be an operational situation where we would be in command of military personnel and resources?

As some take such great pains to remind us, we are not military and do not have command authority.

The NSCC has "adult volunteers," though I know they don't have a semi-separate existence like we do.

[bosshawk]

Heaven forbid that the Sea Cadet SMs have a golf shirt uniform to wear!!!!!!  That guarantees that certain CT members will never consider joining the Sea Cadets.

[Eclipse]

Cadet-centric / cadet-only programs may look like CAP, but in fact they are different paradigms as they do not have adult programs, nor operational situations where members may be in command of military personnel and resources.  That is not the whole puzzle, but it's a significant part of the issue with CAP uniforms.

Hmm?

Where would there be an operational situation where we would be in command of military personnel and resources?

ES - a military resource assigned to a mission could clearly and easily be reporting into a CAP IC.  Now, that relationship would
be ICS command, not military, but command is command.

That lack of an operational role and mandate is a key delimiter between CAP and other programs that look like us (and the CGAux).

[lordmonar]

And that's the difference between the Navy and the Air Force. They are entirely different cultures, and have been since 1947. I spent 3 years stationed on an overseas air base, and it was scary, and comical, to watch the different ways the two services went about the same tasks.

+1....same base got to see it from the other side of thing!

[Private Investigator]

There's a local Navy Sea Cadet unit that is pretty strong member-wise and it seems like they do a lot with some of the local Coast Guard.  I see them around now and again.  They look a lot more like the Navy (both adults and cadets) than we ever have looked like the AF.  There seems to be a lot less gastrointestinal turmoil among them about uniforms.  They just take the Navy uniform, slap an identifier on the arm (and different rank insignia for cadets) and a different cap device and, hey, presto, good to go.



It doesn't seem like the Navy rides herd on them watching for the slightest uniform boo-boo...nor does it seem they have a sector of their membership howling about "distinctiveness."

We have a Sea Cadet unit that appears pretty sharp too.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first CAP unit was co-located at an Armed Forces Reserve Facility with the Navy Reserve, Marine Reserve and National Guard.  The Navy and Marine Reservists always seemed like they went out of their way to help them (in fact, the Navy Reservists did more for us locally than the Air Force...despite us being within driving distance of ANG and AFRES units).  Both the cadets and their officers always seemed very sharp and GTG in uniform.

I believe that they are now transitioning to the new Navy "camouflage" uniform, though I talked to an Ensign some months ago who was still in BDU's (with subdued nametapes and hard rank).  Of course, AFJROTC/AFROTC have already done so with the ABU, which started this thread.  Marine Corps JROTC wears MARPAT, which incorporates the Marines' hallowed Eagle, Globe and Anchor.

The only ones besides us that I know of who don't wear the field uniform of their parent service are the Young Marines...but they wear ribbons on BDU's.

Other than the possible ES situation that Eclipse mentioned, what's wrong with this picture?