Shoulder Cords

[Dracosbane]

I'm looking through the 39-1 and am looking for anything that authorizes or does not authorize shoulder cords for the BDU or Field uniform.  There are a couple of different places that shoulder cords are authorized (Table 1-4, etc.) but I'm not seeing a yes/no for BDU or Field uniforms. 

Chapter 5-5 says that shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times, but Figure 5-2 only shows Service Dress uniform.  I'm guessing, however, that "at all times" means any time they're in uniform and not "with any uniform."

From what I'm seeing, shoulder cords should only be worn with Service Dress.  Anyone have anything that can back that up or tell me I'm wrong?

[Hawk200]

I'm looking through the 39-1 and am looking for anything that authorizes or does not authorize shoulder cords for the BDU or Field uniform.  There are a couple of different places that shoulder cords are authorized (Table 1-4, etc.) but I'm not seeing a yes/no for BDU or Field uniforms. 

Chapter 5-5 says that shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times, but Figure 5-2 only shows Service Dress uniform.  I'm guessing, however, that "at all times" means any time they're in uniform and not "with any uniform."

From what I'm seeing, shoulder cords should only be worn with Service Dress.  Anyone have anything that can back that up or tell me I'm wrong?

If it doesn't say you can, then it's not authorized. It doesn't say you can't wear an orange T-shirt with your blues, does it? Same reasoning applies to anything else.

[arajca]

Shoulder cords are not authorized with the bdu or field uniform for cadets and are not authorized at all for seniors.

At all times means you can wear your CAC or color guard cord even when you're not at a CAC meeting or doing a color guard performance.

The rule, as stated in CAPM 39-1, is if it's not in the manual, it's not authorized. Wearing shoulder cords with the bdu or field uniform is not in the manual, ergo, it's not authorized.

[Dracosbane]

Logic (  ) then dictates that it is not acceptable to authorize the wear for BDUs with lower echelon supplements, correct?

[HGjunkie]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

[arajca]

Logic (  ) then dictates that it is not acceptable to authorize the wear for BDUs with lower echelon supplements, correct?

Regulation, not logic, says so. The lowest level that can authorize uniform items is the wing, and those items are spelled out in the manual. Only national can change how something is worn. For example, a wing commander may authorize an orange shoulder cord for ground team members, however, it must be worn in the same manner as the CAC cord on the left shoulder. The wing commander cannot authorized the "GT cord" to be worn on the right shoulder.

[Dracosbane]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

[AngelWings]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

It is not authorized. All dress uniform items belong with dress uniforms, not combat uniforms (except for pin on rank). I'd know, I am a supply airman for my squadron.

[davidsinn]

Hmmm. I can't imagine why you are asking...

[SarDragon]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

It is not authorized. All dress uniform items belong with dress uniforms, not combat uniforms (except for pin on rank). I'd know, I am a supply airman for my squadron.

That, IMHO, carries no weight at all. Would that logic extend to mean that, since I have no cadets in my current unit, that I know nothing about the cadet program?

[Dracosbane]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

It is not authorized. All dress uniform items belong with dress uniforms, not combat uniforms (except for pin on rank). I'd know, I am a supply airman for my squadron.

I'm not going to infer any tone into your comment (tone on internet is hard to display), however if I did, I would not appreciate its condescension, cadet.  You might have been typing when I edited my statement, so you might not have seen the whole thing.

I know shoulder cords do not belong on BDU or Field uniforms.  I know that shoulder cords are a dress uniform item.  I have a very specific reason for wanting to ensure my correct reading of the uniform manual.  I need to make sure I provide proper regulatory statements to back up the information I need to provide.  I cannot just say "The manual says no," I need to have verifiable proof of where in the manual information pertaining to my statements can be found.

I am not (call it OPSEC) going to say why on an open internet forum.   

[Dracosbane]

Hmmm. I can't imagine why you are asking...

I don't know...

I have two other comments, too.

[davidsinn]

Hmmm. I can't imagine why you are asking...

I don't know...

I have two other comments, too.

Do share. PM is fine.

[spacecommand]

I think shoulder cords on BDUs look just as strange as wearing ribbons on BDUs (which I recall the Young Marines do).

[AngelWings]

To the OP, what I said has no tone what so ever. It is meant to be interpreted has what you'd read in a uniform manual. SarDragon, I did not say what you wrote, so do no infer that.

[spaatzmom]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

It is not authorized. All dress uniform items belong with dress uniforms, not combat uniforms (except for pin on rank). I'd know, I am a supply airman for my squadron.

I'm not going to infer any tone into your comment (tone on internet is hard to display), however if I did, I would not appreciate its condescension, cadet.  You might have been typing when I edited my statement, so you might not have seen the whole thing.

I know shoulder cords do not belong on BDU or Field uniforms.  I know that shoulder cords are a dress uniform item.  I have a very specific reason for wanting to ensure my correct reading of the uniform manual.  I need to make sure I provide proper regulatory statements to back up the information I need to provide.  I cannot just say "The manual says no," I need to have verifiable proof of where in the manual information pertaining to my statements can be found.

I am not (call it OPSEC) going to say why on an open internet forum.   

I am not a cadet, but must admit, his question was exactly the same as mine. 

I also can't see how the call it OPSEC, comment could be used in this situation.  Vague references to the situation are not in violation of it.  The OPSEC card is thrown out for all kinds of things that have little to nothing to do with it.

[DBlair]

Why would you want to wear a Shoulder Cord on your BDUs.... Seriously, they're annoying enough on the blues.

Not wanting to.  Clarifying regulations to provide proper information.  Confirming what authorization does/does not exist.

I already had the proper information in mind, i.e. no cords on BDUs, just wanting to make sure I was correct and not missing something somewhere.

It is not authorized. All dress uniform items belong with dress uniforms, not combat uniforms (except for pin on rank). I'd know, I am a supply airman for my squadron.

I'm not going to infer any tone into your comment (tone on internet is hard to display), however if I did, I would not appreciate its condescension, cadet.  You might have been typing when I edited my statement, so you might not have seen the whole thing.

I know shoulder cords do not belong on BDU or Field uniforms.  I know that shoulder cords are a dress uniform item.  I have a very specific reason for wanting to ensure my correct reading of the uniform manual.  I need to make sure I provide proper regulatory statements to back up the information I need to provide.  I cannot just say "The manual says no," I need to have verifiable proof of where in the manual information pertaining to my statements can be found.

I am not (call it OPSEC) going to say why on an open internet forum.   

I am not a cadet, but must admit, his question was exactly the same as mine. 

I also can't see how the call it OPSEC, comment could be used in this situation.  Vague references to the situation are not in violation of it.  The OPSEC card is thrown out for all kinds of things that have little to nothing to do with it.

I agree that the term OPSEC seems to be used (often incorrectly) for almost anything. In this case, I believe the use of "OPSEC" is being meant in a 'keeping the situational details private from the public realm' sort of thing.


As for the details of this topic, just imagining shoulder cords and ribbons on BDUs just made me feel kind of sick. lol

[SarDragon]

To the OP, what I said has no tone what so ever. It is meant to be interpreted has what you'd read in a uniform manual. SarDragon, I did not say what you wrote, so do no infer that.

You did say what I highlighted, and I was making a comparison. Let me rephrase it to make it less personal:

Would that logic extend to someone having no cadets their current unit, that they know nothing about the cadet program?

It isn't the best analogy, but it's workable. You seem to be implying that your position as a supply guy makes you an instant expert in all things relating to uniforms.

[SARDOC]

I have a very specific reason for wanting to ensure my correct reading of the uniform manual.  I need to make sure I provide proper regulatory statements to back up the information I need to provide.  I cannot just say "The manual says no," I need to have verifiable proof of where in the manual information pertaining to my statements can be found.

COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized. 
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. 

[Eclipse]

COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY.  Any variation from this publication is not authorized. 
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

If only that were true. 39-1 has not been the final authority on uniform wear for 10 years.

[AngelWings]

To the OP, what I said has no tone what so ever. It is meant to be interpreted has what you'd read in a uniform manual. SarDragon, I did not say what you wrote, so do no infer that.

You did say what I highlighted, and I was making a comparison. Let me rephrase it to make it less personal:

Would that logic extend to someone having no cadets their current unit, that they know nothing about the cadet program?

It isn't the best analogy, but it's workable. You seem to be implying that your position as a supply guy makes you an instant expert in all things relating to uniforms.

I am supposed to be knowledgable with all matters pertaining to uniforms. If I do not know a question to something, I am supposed to reffer to the appropiate manual or regulation to find the answer, which I do quite frequently. I have no reason to try to make myself look like an expert, nor do I want to. When I said "I am a supply airman, I know", I meant for it to be said like when someone says I have THAT job, inferring that it is stressful (I've had to spend hours organizing it, and I still have a few more to put in to get it fixed up.) There was no intention of trying to make myself even look like I am an expert.

[SARDOC]

If only that were true. 39-1 has not been the final authority on uniform wear for 10 years.
[/quote

They've made too many exceptions to it and nobody bothers to read it or it's changes for anyone to really take it seriously.  The ICL's for this are long expired....39-1 should be exactly how it reads.  IMHO.

[Eclipse]

anyone to really take it seriously.  The ICL's for this are long expired....39-1 should be exactly how it reads.  IMHO.

No argument there.

[SARDOC]

There must be a glitch in the system.  You replied to my post but I can't see my previous post on the board.

[AngelWings]

There must be a glitch in the system.  You replied to my post but I can't see my previous post on the board.

Same on my end.

[Eclipse]

Ditto - it kept showing you as last poster, but no post, then I looked at your profile and replied from there.

Keep your eyes open for Sentinels.

[davidsinn]

In this case, I believe the use of "OPSEC" is being meant in a 'keeping the situational details private from the public realm' sort of thing.

That's what it is. I know exactly what he is referring to and while it's not a secret in any sense of the word it's not exactly fit for the public at the moment.

[Dracosbane]

His post ended up inside the quote.

[Dracosbane]

In this case, I believe the use of "OPSEC" is being meant in a 'keeping the situational details private from the public realm' sort of thing.

That's what it is. I know exactly what he is referring to and while it's not a secret in any sense of the word it's not exactly fit for the public at the moment.

This ^^^^

OPSEC, prudence, keeping my big mouth shut.  OPSEC is universally understood in this forum.

[tsrup]

So can anyone cite the verbaige that explicitly says thst the shoulder cord can be authorized for blues only?

[SarDragon]

No. It doesn't exist.

[lordmonar]

So can anyone cite the verbaige that explicitly says thst the shoulder cord can be authorized for blues only?

Nope....it is just another one of those rumors.


Let's see what 39-1 says, shall we?

5-5. Shoulder Cords. Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets only to denote special honor positions or may be authorized by the wing commander for special purpose activities (see Table 1-4). Not more than one shoulder cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (Figure 5-2)/ Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times. Shoulder cords will be worn along the shoulder seam and fastened from the underneath, inside the shirt.

Please note the  "at all times".

No where does it say blues only or not allowed in BDU, BBDU or Flight Suits.

[jimmydeanno]

So can anyone cite the verbaige that explicitly says thst the shoulder cord can be authorized for blues only?

Nope....it is just another one of those rumors.


Let's see what 39-1 says, shall we?

5-5. Shoulder Cords. Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets only to denote special honor positions or may be authorized by the wing commander for special purpose activities (see Table 1-4). Not more than one shoulder cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (Figure 5-2)/ Shoulder cords may be worn by cadets at all times. Shoulder cords will be worn along the shoulder seam and fastened from the underneath, inside the shirt.

Please note the  "at all times".

No where does it say blues only or not allowed in BDU, BBDU or Flight Suits.

All times = a cadet can wear their cac cord normally, not just when at a cac meeting.  All times does not mean all uniforms.

[lordmonar]

Okay.

But it does not say you can wear it with any specific uniform.....ergo you can't wear it with any.

Bad regulations are bad regulations........and that which is not forbidden is allowed.

So......cords are authorised by 39-1 for wear by cadets in all uniforms.....at all time.

[Dracosbane]

Figure 5-2 shows the Service Dress uniform. 

[EMT-83]

To borrow from A Few Good Men:

Kaffee: Corporal, would you turn to the page in this book that says where the mess hall is, please.
Cpl. Barnes: Well, Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.
Kaffee: You mean to say in all your time at Gitmo you've never had a meal?
Cpl. Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir.
Kaffee: I don't understand. How did you know where the mess hall was if it's not in this book?
Cpl. Barnes: Well, I guess I just followed the crowd at chow time, sir.

[lordmonar]

Figure 5-2 shows the Service Dress uniform.

Yep it sure does......now what does that mean?

[Dracosbane]

I'm not interpreting, I'm just stating fact. 

[Eclipse]

There is no specification for wear of a cord with a field uniform, so until there is one, the point is moot.

[tsrup]

There is just as much specification for wear with the field uniform as there is with blues.  The fact of the matter is that according to the regulation as it is written a wing commander may authorize a shoulder chord for wear affixed to the left shoulder along the seam.  The uniform that that cord is attached to is not specified.



edit:  it sounds like the op is fishing for information based on a situation that has happened recently.  At this point better ground will be gained in your endeavor by referencing you're own wing's supplements top see if such authorization has been granted at all.

[Eclipse]

edit:  it sounds like the op is fishing for information based on a situation that has happened recently. 

Sounds like?

Heh...

Guaranteed he either wants to wear them on the BDU and someone said "no", or someone asked him and he wants to say "no".

[tsrup]

And because I'd rather be right than maintain a single stance, I offer you all this gem.  According to this national doesn't believe in it's own regulations and we should expect further clarification in the next revision (not holding my breath).

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/445/kw/shoulder%20cord%20with%20bdus/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyMjQ1MzI4Ni9zaWQvYzRCYWFkS2s%3D

The relevant part is in red and towards the bottom.

Enjoy

[davidsinn]

edit:  it sounds like the op is fishing for information based on a situation that has happened recently. 

Sounds like?

Heh...

Guaranteed he either wants to wear them on the BDU and someone said "no", or someone asked him and he wants to say "no".

Neither of those...

[tsrup]

edit:  it sounds like the op is fishing for information based on a situation that has happened recently. 

Sounds like?

Heh...

Guaranteed he either wants to wear them on the BDU and someone said "no", or someone asked him and he wants to say "no".

Neither of those...

Neither is relevant.   Knowledge base specifically says blues shirt or service coat only.  It may not be what I agree with or how I interpret the regulation myself, but it its what it is.

[EMT-83]

Once again, the KB is based on someone's opinion and not supported by any regulation.

Not that I disagree with that opinion, but it doesn't really carry any more weight than any of my opinions just because it's posted on the KB.

[lordmonar]

There is no specification for wear of a cord with a field uniform, so until there is one, the point is moot.

There is no specification for wear of a cord with a short sleeve blues shirts either......so are you suggesting that cords are only authorised for service dress uniforms?

[Eclipse]

There is no specification for wear of a cord with a field uniform, so until there is one, the point is moot.

There is no specification for wear of a cord with a short sleeve blues shirts either......so are you suggesting that cords are only authorised for service dress uniforms?

Obviously not.

[a2capt]

OPSEC...

[tsrup]

I guess keeping in the fact that the KB is non regulatory, any that despite the wording that they are going to fix 39-1 to include the blues only verbiage (not holding my breath).  CAPM-does at no point restrict shoulder cord wear to either the service or service dress uniforms.

Indiana wing currently only has supplements regarding shoulder cord wear in regards to the color guard uniform where it also lacks restrictions.  There is nothing stopping you from suggesting that that restriction be added to your supplements through your chain of command if (lets pretend) your supplement were up for comment.


Otherwise the regulation its as it is until NHQ changes it, and your supplement is as it is as well.

[Ed Bos]

FWIW, the Air Force uses shoulder cords to denote positions, such as aides, MTIs, Honor Guard members, etc.

Some Airmen assigned to the Air Education and Training Command wear blue shoulder cords to denote Military Training Leader positions to trainees, and wear them on the Blues, Service Dress Blues, and formerly on the Battle Dress Uniform. In addition, some trainee-supervisors (referred to as Ropes) wear green, yellow, or red shoulder cords, depending on their level of responsibility, while attending technical training. There are also trainees that wear white shoulder cords, or black shoulder cords, to indicate volunteer additional duties with the Chaplains' Office or membership on a Drill Team, respectively. These trainees also wear their shoulder cords on all these uniform combinations.

If a cadet were to ask me if they could wear a shoulder cord on the BDUs, I'd say, "Have at it, just not while participating on an ES activity or mission," since it may interfere with other equipment.

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

[Salty]

That would be correct.  When I was at USAF SAM the yellow and green ropes were in my class and the red rope was in the class ahead of mine.  They wore their ropes on blues and bdu's.

[davidsinn]

your supplement were up for comment.

Here's the deal: It is up for comment. Cords on all uniforms is in there. Some don't think that is a good idea. I tend to agree. I consider it a ceremonial item which should only belong on a dress uniform.

[tsrup]

your supplement were up for comment.

Here's the deal: It is up for comment. Cords on all uniforms is in there. Some don't think that is a good idea. I tend to agree. I consider it a ceremonial item which should only belong on a dress uniform.

And it seems that CAPM 39-1 as well as the Air Force would disagree.

I was at a squadron where a green cord was used to denote the cadet of the month.  Was a great tool to have. 


I do agree with the sentiment that the cords should be left at home while on mission, but otherwise I see no problem adding an incentive to get cadets to do a little extra, especially when all we're talking about here is a shoulder cord.

though on the other hand, even though it is authorized, I would mercilessly ridicule any one wearing a cord on a flight suit /joke

[GroundHawg]

We wore Black Cords on our BDU/ABUs while I was on Base Honor Guard. Looked pretty good IMO.

[SaBeR33]

FWIW, the Air Force uses shoulder cords to denote positions, such as aides, MTIs, Honor Guard members, etc.

Some Airmen assigned to the Air Education and Training Command wear blue shoulder cords to denote Military Training Leader positions to trainees, and wear them on the Blues, Service Dress Blues, and formerly on the Battle Dress Uniform. In addition, some trainee-supervisors (referred to as Ropes) wear green, yellow, or red shoulder cords, depending on their level of responsibility, while attending technical training. There are also trainees that wear white shoulder cords, or black shoulder cords, to indicate volunteer additional duties with the Chaplains' Office or membership on a Drill Team, respectively. These trainees also wear their shoulder cords on all these uniform combinations.

If a cadet were to ask me if they could wear a shoulder cord on the BDUs, I'd say, "Have at it, just not while participating on an ES activity or mission," since it may interfere with other equipment.

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

You beat me to it. Having been to AF BMT and two training bases, I've seen my fair share of all of these and they look quite sharp when worn properly. However, it still doesn't clarify whether or not shoulder cords are authorized for wear on CAP uniforms other than blues since what CAP and Ma Blue do are still two very different things.

[titanII]

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

Um...    where are their covers?   

[PHall]

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

Um...    where are their covers?   

They appear to be in an doorway and not outside. Don't need a cover there.

[HGjunkie]

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

Um...    where are their covers?   

There's a sunshade, s'all good.

[lordmonar]

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

Um...    where are their covers?   

Um....they took them off for the blood photo. 

[Hawk200]

Image of Active Duty MTLs wearing their blue shoulder cords in duty uniforms: http://www.goodfellow.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100629-F-0000Z-002.JPG

Um...    where are their covers?   

It's actually pretty common to remove headgear for outdoor photos. Sometimes, in photos you can't see people's faces clearly when wearing utility type caps because of the brim.

[titanII]

My comment about their covers was more just poking fun/rhetorical. I didn't really expect an answer. I figured that it was just because of shadows on their faces.
It's my fault for not expecting a uniform discussion to ensue on CAP Talk 
Carry on, ladies & gents 

[tsrup]

It's my fault for not expecting a uniform discussion to ensue on CAP Talk 

It is (for once) actually in the Uniform & Awards section... and regarding a Uniform Topic...

[Major Lord]

The aiguillette is handy as a garrote, for tying ones armor into place, hitching your General's steed, or improvising a small animal snare. Perhaps we should all keep a paracord handy just in case....These situations come up so frequently. Frankly I am surprised that the safety nazis have not already prepared a power point on the dangers of "le Aiguillette".


Major Lord

[HGjunkie]

The aiguillette is handy as a garrote, for tying ones armor into place, hitching your General's steed, or improvising a small animal snare. Perhaps we should all keep a paracord handy just in case....These situations come up so frequently. Frankly I am surprised that the safety nazis have not already prepared a power point on the dangers of "le Aiguillette".


Major Lord

Erm... Il serait <<l'aiguillette>>, Monsieur.

[AlphaSigOU]

The aiguillette is handy as a garrote, for tying ones armor into place, hitching your General's steed, or improvising a small animal snare. Perhaps we should all keep a paracord handy just in case....These situations come up so frequently. Frankly I am surprised that the safety nazis have not already prepared a power point on the dangers of "l'Aiguillette".

- ahem - 'deodorant strings'! (Back in my days WIWAC that's what we used to call shoulder cords/aigulettes.)