NEW Georgia Wing patch

[RiverAux]

Yes there is in a growing number of Wings such a standard is being accepted.

[Major Carrales]

Yes there is in a growing number of Wings such a standard is being accepted.

Since no such standard exists for CAP, there is really nothing to argue about, is there?

[flyboy53]

Yes there is.

You've decided to be judge and jury in this instance...when the wing commander is the ultimate authority. Since you're not a member of the Georgia Wing, you have not vote and no real place to make comment in this case.

[Major Carrales]

 

The matter at hand is the idea of some system-wide change forcing people to comply to a standard, Wings and National imposing some standard on patch existence and design and the traditions held by long time units with patches. 

As it stands now, a Wing Commander can approve any design for unit use.  That is the only system-wide standard.

As for the Georgia Wing...since when did their members get a vote on anything?

[tarheel gumby]

As to standards for new unit/wing patches when thinking about changing a design the need to should be considered. When designing a new patch any questions should be directed to both the CAP National Historian (Col. Blascovich) or the National Curator (LtCol Shaw), they can tell you what is appropriate or not. There currently no CAP specific Heraldry guidelines, but as a CAP historian I have been encouraged to use the AF standards. The patches need only to pass the review and approval of the Wing CC involved. As to the GAWG patch it reflects the choice of the wing personell involved in selecting the new patch, and the approval of the GAWG CC. He/She is the final word on that.

[PHall]

Maybe we should adopt the standard the Air Force uses with the Airman Battle Uniform.

NO PATCHES AT ALL!!!

Think of the money everybody will save....

[Major Carrales]

Maybe we should adopt the standard the Air Force uses with the Airman Battle Uniform.

NO PATCHES AT ALL!!!

Think of the money everybody will save....

Yes, might as well throw all history and tradition out while were at it.  You miss the point.   

[PHall]

Maybe we should adopt the standard the Air Force uses with the Airman Battle Uniform.

NO PATCHES AT ALL!!!

Think of the money everybody will save....

Yes, might as well throw all history and tradition out while were at it.  You miss the point.

But aren't you the one who is always complaining on how much our uniforms cost?
So you get a "no cost" solution and now you don't like it bacause of "tradition"?

[BillB]

What tradition? In the Southeast Region alone, every Wing except Puerto Rico has changed Wing patches in the past 15 years. Florida alone has had three patches in the past ten years.

[caphornbuckle]

Honestly, folks, the unit patch is an optional item anyways.

But if one is insistant on using an emblem with heraldry and strong support, why can't it be used everywhere but the patch (sign, wall plaque, side of a building, etc.)?  This would keep the emblem close to the unit and remind those within the unit what its history is all about.

If a patch change is needed, it wouldn't take much to take the original patch and set it in the new design to comply with the standards.

[Major Carrales]

Maybe we should adopt the standard the Air Force uses with the Airman Battle Uniform.

NO PATCHES AT ALL!!!

Think of the money everybody will save....

Yes, might as well throw all history and tradition out while were at it.  You miss the point.

But aren't you the one who is always complaining on how much our uniforms cost?
So you get a "no cost" solution and now you don't like it bacause of "tradition"?

I'm willing to pay for what I am willing to pay for...not because some bloke in another Wing thinks their vision of CAP uniforms should be system wide.   We put a great deal into our local units...we build them up from nothing into being assets to CAP and the USAF.  A patch that has been a long time moniker of a unit is a reflection of that spirit.

You people would trash all that in favor of imposing the standards and practices of another organization on us.  It seems that we have a real qunadry here...CAP is not the USAF.  And the USAF has demanded we not be them in style and form save for the wear of the USAF style uniform....that we be distinctive.  Yet you all want us to mimic their practices.   Is that not why the CSU was nixed?  People would have us believe that.

As I said before...make it policy and I'll change my tune.    Until then, there is no standard.  Leave people alone about it.

[Dragon 3-2]

A roundel is fine, and would not need to be updated if the only issue is the shape.

As to the "freebies", if you're seriously implying that not every wing had a few members good enough with Photoshop or Illustrator to
design a decent patch, then you are pretending just to make the argument.

or people like me who love to design stuff in photoshop outside of their wing

and Being an former member of GAWG, I gotta say this is a nice looking patch, but could use a little more flavor to it.

[NC Hokie]

As for changing an existing unit patch to comply with the acceptable standard, it's really simple...and I'm putting on my old Air Force and new CAP historian hat here. If the unit wants to keep the existing patch, make sure it was approved by wing. If the unit membership continues to agree with the design, you simply put it on a gray or blue field inside the acceptable shape. The Air Force has been doing that for years.

Can you point me towards an example of this? I'd like to offer that as an option to my squadron membership, as we're in the market for a new batch of patches and are considering redoing our old patch to make it "compliant" with AF standards.

[flyboy53]

Here's the 14th Air Force patch that I used to wear. This one has a gray backgroud. There are other examples of current numberd Air Forces.  The others, like the 3rd, 12th and 8th Air Forces have the same color blue background as the field of the patch.

Will that work for you, or would you like other examples?

Remember that that shape of a squadron patch is round with a scroll on the top or bottom. The crest or shield as you see here is generally reserved for group, wing, region, etc.

[tarheel gumby]

As for changing an existing unit patch to comply with the acceptable standard, it's really simple...and I'm putting on my old Air Force and new CAP historian hat here. If the unit wants to keep the existing patch, make sure it was approved by wing. If the unit membership continues to agree with the design, you simply put it on a gray or blue field inside the acceptable shape. The Air Force has been doing that for years.

Can you point me towards an example of this? I'd like to offer that as an option to my squadron membership, as we're in the market for a new batch of patches and are considering redoing our old patch to make it "compliant" with AF standards.

Make sure that you send a copy of the new design to the Wing Historian for approval. The Wing Historian is Phil Saleet. PM me for his adderss. Col. Douglas will require it before he signs off on it.

[NC Hokie]

Will that work for you, or would you like other examples?

That'll do just fine.  Thanks!

[rt1111]

I'm new to here so I'm gonna keep it as simple as possible. I'm opposed to this issue on a few grounds.

1 the cost of buying new patches will be shifted completely on individual members.  as a high school kid without a job, even though my parents supported my membership in CAP they eventually began to say no on the grounds of their wallet to new uniform and ground team stuff i needed.

2 think about how this is gonna look on the ABUs when CAP switches.

3. the Georgia flag is just a confederate flag with the Georgia seal on it. theirs nothing wrong with that but the new wing patch is a Georgia flag without the seal........   its inappropriate. as an organization supporting the US government, why should we be wearing a symbol of open rebellion against the US government? its also a little insensitive to African American Members.

4. unless the Wing commanders were ordered to change (which i dint think they were) the Georgia wing patch was great the way it was. It was distinctive to the state with the seal on it. it didn't add alot of frills and unnecessary colors that some wing patches do. (that wasn't a cheap shot, it was an observation) and it worked in concert with the other patches and color schemes already on the uniform.  Were in CAP, not the Circus. the more colors you add the less professional you look.  if you don't believe me look at the old patch. its simple and timeless, take a look: http://www.shepherdtactical.com/images/cap/wing_patches/GA.jpg

I for one will never wear this new patch. I'm going to continue to hang on to the old one, because I'm not sure if wing patches are grandfathered in. and if I'm called on it I wont wear a wing patch. GA wing is a hot mess right now.

[flyboy53]

First, not to burst your bubble, but CAP Talk is not the forum to address your concerns. You should direct such issues through your chain of command.

Second, your new wing patch was approved by your Wing Commander following a review by other leadership and wing members. What the implementation plans are, again are a matter of your chain of command. Either way, the wing patch is now an optional uniform item in some wings or subordinate units and mandatory in others. If the new patch is approved, the old one is out. Unless there is a unit policy to the opposite, you will not be forced to wear it.

Third, your attempt at relating the Georgia State Flag to the CSA, though emotional, is unwarranted because the emblem was approved. I suggest you again ask through your chain of command about the significance of the new wing patch. You may even want to research the significance of your state flag. Also, don't be surprised if the new wing patch enjoys great acceptance from others in your wing. I know there are those outside the wing that find the patch appealing.

Fourth, although your insignia cost concerns are warranted and felt by all of us, I hope your inability to purchase future rank and ribbons doesn't interfer with your continued participation in the cadet program....something that should have been considered when joining.

Finally, who said anything about ABUs...besides shield shaped wing patches look just fine on ABUs.

[RiverAux]

Gee, CAPTalk isn't an appropriate place to complain about CAP policies?

[BGNightfall]

I do not agree that the AF standard is the best fit for our organization.  We got by for years (and years and years) wearing our "incorrectly" shaped patches on the AF uniform (blues and BDUs).  Our units are community-based, and while they are part of a national command structure, our member base is much more bottom-up, in terms of culture than the Air Force is.  I believe that our unit patches should reflect this, and that a heraldry standard that specifically discourages location-specific iconography is counter to that very culture. 

Personally, I welcome as much diversity in patch shape and design as our members are willing to produce, provided that they do not depict iconography of hate or illegal activity (Hemp leaves, KKK, NAZI symbolism, etc.).  If Berkley Senior Squadron wants their squadron patch to be in the shape of a circle, with a peace sign over a tie-dyed riot of color, more power to them!  I do not feel that "amateur" or "cluttered" images are a detriment to the uniform, or to our culture. 

I do, however, feel that a large-scale redesign of our insignia would strip us of a lot of our heritage.  How much to we want to lose to embrace abstract designs on all of our patches that will ultimately leave them all looking extremely similar?