What would you want to do with CAP uniforms?

[RiverAux]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

Overall, I think CAP (and the AF's image) is hurt much worse by having 20 different uniforms on display at every CAP event than it would be by having everyone in the same uniform even if it included overweight people. 

[Phillip]

I agree with DNall on his points 8, 11, and 12.  Although I own one, the golf shirt never seemed to be appropriate to what we do as an organization.  IMHO, it contributes to the "flying club" stigma.  As for the uniform regs, they are a nightmare for a new member.

Let's see, what else can I come up with?

Remove metal grade insignia from the new corporate uniform (TPU, Corporate Blues, or whatever we're calling it now).  While it may look nice, there is no reason (IMHO) that this uniform can't use the grey epaulet slides.  At least this way, members wearing either uniform would look like they belong to the same organization.

Phase out the Blazer Combo, along with the White Aviator/Grey Slacks combo.  Makes me think "cruise ship."

I don;t think it's having Corporate uniforms that drive us further from the USAF.  It's continually trying to make Corporate uniforms LOOK like the USAF uniform that drives a wedge between us.

I don't really agree.  It's the way we conduct ourselves, not the clothing we wear that determines our relationship.  Besides, CAP-USAF has been quoted as saying the Air Force has no objections to the uniform.  I would hope that the AF would say something if they disapproved of something we were doing/have done, even if they had no "official" say in the matter.
http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2006/04/capusaf_cc_on_u.html

[MIKE]

1) Blank epaulet slides (gray w/ CAP, no grade) for SM w/o grade - now called Officer Candidate. Sewn on cutouts or other Officer Candidate device for BDU/BBDU.

Non-concur on the blank slides for SMs.  I like the airman status of SM w/o grade vs. Officer Candidate.  My read of CAPM 39-1 says that SMs w/o grade and SM NCOs should be wearing cloth cutouts on the BDU, while the Field Uniform remains undefined.  I could see removing the metal CAP cutouts from the collars of the light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs though.

2) C/ enlisted on BDUs back to grade on one side for logistics & cost reasons, C/Officers keep grade on both sides of utils. Allow C/Officer blue sewn on grade on flight suit, just like adult officers are allowed to do (as soon as I see that policy letter).

I like grade on both collars for all grades, and would extend it to the service uniforms.  I'd even change the insignia for C/AB (see post above).  Non-concur on the cadet officer cloth grade on bags.  AFROTC doesn't do it, flight cap insignia is enough.  Would like to see a return to requiring "CADET" on the ASNP. which also mirrors AFROTC policy.

7) De-authorize the old style service coat for cadets. I know there's a ton of them around, but dear lord those were phased out a long time ago, are we going to wait till the fourth generation of service coat to get rid of them? Set a date & get on with it.

Concur... Sick of seeing ill-fitting old-style service coats worn with CUP/FCU issue 1625s.  Service Dress isn't a required uniform either... I see no reason not to require the new style uniforms.  I do think cadets should be restricted to the cheaper enlisted version without epaulets though.

10) require nomex (green or blue) for flying.

Wing CC can do that already IIRC per CAPM 39-1.  Have to deal with those that will challenge the need for Nomex in the type of aircraft CAP files though.

11) require UOD to be stated for all activities (including meetings), give a chart in the reg to show what Corporate-style uniforms correspond to what AF-style, and a chart explaining what UOD is appropriate to what situation/time of year. There shouldn't be options, and corporate uniforms should be worn to the same quality standards as AF-style.

There is an equivalency table for the CAP distinctive uniforms in CAPM 39-1 already IIRC.

c) drop patches off BDUs (that includes the flag)

That was implied. 

[mawr]

What is the big deal with the reversed American Flag?  So the US Army uses it, so does NASA.  I'm proud to wear the flag, in what ever variation is mandated.

Am I worried that someone is going to confuse me with a soldier?  I don't think so, "Civil Air Patrol" is plastered across my chest on a contrasting blue field.

[ELTHunter]

Remove metal grade insignia from the new corporate uniform (TPU, Corporate Blues, or whatever we're calling it now).

Blasphemer.  I think that is why TP created the TPU in the first place, which is why I said:

I don;t think it's having Corporate uniforms that drive us further from the USAF.  It's continually trying to make Corporate uniforms LOOK like the USAF uniform that drives a wedge between us.

[/quote]

After years of trying to get the USAF to let us put metal rank on the service uniforms and them saying no, TP thumbs his nose at them and comes out with the TPU.

[DNall]

1) Blank epaulet slides (gray w/ CAP, no grade) for SM w/o grade - now called Officer Candidate. Sewn on cutouts or other Officer Candidate device for BDU/BBDU.

Non-concur on the blank slides for SMs.  I like the airman status of SM w/o grade vs. Officer Candidate.  My read of CAPM 39-1 says that SMs w/o grade and SM NCOs should be wearing cloth cutouts on the BDU, while the Field Uniform remains undefined.  I could see removing the metal CAP cutouts from the collars of the light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs though.

First...

39-1 Page 32 Note 2: CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior Member NCOs & Airmen as well as Senior Members without grade wear this device on both sides of the collar. cadet members without grade wear metal devices on both sides of the collar.

It does mean metal device on both sides for SMs w/o grade, exactly like C/AB. Same is true on Blues.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by Airman status. Does a cadet officer out rank a SM w/o grade? Is their adult supervision legally negated by the 12yo C/2Lt? Any adult clearly must be distinguishable from a C/AB. I realize the circumstances under which this comes up are rare, given our average new SM is 40-50+ & our average new cadet is under 14, but like everything else it needs to be though all the way thru. As I've said before I do now have a 17yo C/AB that looks older than an 18yo SM w/o grade in my Sq. I think you can see how that can be confusing, especially to outsiders (even w/ military experience) on first glance. And how that confusion can in turn lead to legal problems. This one has to happen. You can debate the form, but it must be distinctive.

And personally, I have no problem with calling them officer candidates, cause that's exactly what they are, candidates to become officers after they satisfactorily complete the requirements & their commander endorses their appointment to 2Lt (or FO) and it is approved up the chain. I'd be well into the camp of saying those requirements aren't strong enough, but that doesn't change the status. In fact, I think it encourages the idea that initial officer req's/training should be more substantial.

2) C/ enlisted on BDUs back to grade on one side for logistics & cost reasons, C/Officers keep grade on both sides of utils. Allow C/Officer blue sewn on grade on flight suit, just like adult officers are allowed to do (as soon as I see that policy letter).

I like grade on both collars for all grades, and would extend it to the service uniforms.  I'd even change the insignia for C/AB (see post above).  Non-concur on the cadet officer cloth grade on bags.  AFROTC doesn't do it, flight cap insignia is enough.  Would like to see a return to requiring "CADET" on the ASNP. which also mirrors AFROTC policy.

There are a lot of complaints on this one. It's a nightmare getting all cadets in the right grade & expensive to keep extra stocks on hand. The old way was cheaper & easier, & there's no gain to the current way. Far as C/AB, why do they need a new device? An AB in the AF has no such device. The current cutouts on both sides method is fine. As to the flight suit, it should say CADET, I wasn't aware there was an option on that. As far as grade on, I think they'd prefer that & what does it matter. AFROTC does things their way for a specific reason that doesn't relate to us. I think it's appropriate.

10) require nomex (green or blue) for flying.

Wing CC can do that already IIRC per CAPM 39-1.  Have to deal with those that will challenge the need for Nomex in the type of aircraft CAP files though.

I was speaking to making it national policy. Let em cry. I don't plan to crash either, but there are planty of examples of members who have & were saved or not by the nomex. The simplest fact is if an in-flight fire occurs you can't pull over & stand out of the way to wait for the fire dept, you have to get down first & that may mean it gets a bit warm. Personally, I'd change the insurance provision to state no coverage exists unless all crew are in correct nomex uniform.

11) require UOD to be stated for all activities (including meetings), give a chart in the reg to show what Corporate-style uniforms correspond to what AF-style, and a chart explaining what UOD is appropriate to what situation/time of year. There shouldn't be options, and corporate uniforms should be worn to the same quality standards as AF-style.

There is an equivalency table for the CAP distinctive uniforms in CAPM 39-1 already IIRC.

There may be I don't know. New uniforms have been added since then though & they do make it a bit more confusing. I'm leaning harder on the other point, that it be required for UOD to be stated for everything & members must be in that uniform (via the equiv chart) or not allowed to participate/be covered by insurance.

Patches on BDU/BBDU...
I don't care for the flag being on there cause it's an Army thing. Not just that the Army does it, but they cut across the guard & to what amounts to their auxiliary w/ SDFs. As such, the flag on in that manner is an identifying feature for now of the Army. More than that though is our BDUs look stupid covered in 12 full color patches. It's best kept to a minimum. Beyond that, I'd argue for what's left to be on dark blue, and if they'd let us get away with white on OD when they move to ABUs then I'd do that too.

Oh and one last thing...
Agree we need to dump the grays & blazer combo or the blue corporates. Pick one or the other & stick with it. If necessary you can make a double brested no epaulet blazer w/ nametage & mini-wings lapel pin for the out of grooming crowd.

BIG BIG thing though. You MUST either go to gray epaulets on the blue corporate style OR you MUST embroider "CAP" on the blue AF officer slides. I've already seen the wrong slides put on the blue shirt a few times & that's going to EXPLODE w/ the AF if it happens in the wrong place at the wrong time, which is just a matter of time. If nothing else gets done, this MUST MUST MUST get done!!!! Plus, it's a good stepping stone to swing that slippery slope the other way & get blue CAP slides back on blues one day, maybe, probably not, but it's good policy anyway.

[RiverAux]

I think it would be a good idea to put uniform of the day into the regulations.  Of course, this can be done at all sorts of levels, but I think there has been an extreme reluctance to "force" people to wear specific uniforms most of the time, at least with senior members.  Cadets always are told exactly what to wear.


Having a national regulation will give squadron commanders some "cover".

[shorning]

I think it would be a good idea to put uniform of the day into the regulations.  Of course, this can be done at all sorts of levels, but I think there has been an extreme reluctance to "force" people to wear specific uniforms most of the time, at least with senior members.  Cadets always are told exactly what to wear.


Having a national regulation will give squadron commanders some "cover".

You want NHQ to develop a uniform of the day for the local squadrons?  You've got to be kidding me! 

Keep in mind, according to CAPM 39-1 (para 1-5), "no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations", however: "members will equip themselves with the basic uniform" and "members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis."

NHQ outlines the general CAP programs.  While regions and wings refine that a bit, it's up to the local squadron to implement the program.  The local commanders should set the uniform of the day as required based on their priorities.  Come on...you shouldn't need NHQ to run your program for you...

[RiverAux]

Not develop one, but standardize what uniforms are worn for what occassions.

Be honest, how often do you attend any CAP event where members only wear 2 uniform types of similar formaility (i.e,  the AF-style and the corporate equivalent)?    I bet the average number of uniform types I see at CAP events, including squadron meetings and wing commanders calls,  falls between 3-6. 

The fact that in general there is no UOD proves that the current system, leaving it entirely up to local commanders, is not working. 

[shorning]

Not develop one, but standardize what uniforms are worn for what occassions.

Again, that should be up to the local commanders.  It's a "command responsibility" to set and enforce the standards.  It's not an issue that should even be on NHQ's radar.  I suggest the fix is at the squadron level instead of dumping a local problem on higher headquarters.

[MIKE]

Around here I have seen a trend toward established UoD for some wing and region functions.  Usually short sleeved shirt/blouse service uniform or eqivelent w/o tie/tab... Others have been less specific but said what not to wear... like no service dress, BDUs, Field Uniforms, bags or golf shirts.  But I also see plenty of people who pay little attention to it and wear what they like.

1) Blank epaulet slides (gray w/ CAP, no grade) for SM w/o grade - now called Officer Candidate. Sewn on cutouts or other Officer Candidate device for BDU/BBDU.

Non-concur on the blank slides for SMs.  I like the airman status of SM w/o grade vs. Officer Candidate.  My read of CAPM 39-1 says that SMs w/o grade and SM NCOs should be wearing cloth cutouts on the BDU, while the Field Uniform remains undefined.  I could see removing the metal CAP cutouts from the collars of the light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs though.

First...

39-1 Page 32 Note 2: CAP Lapel/Collar Insignia: Senior Member NCOs & Airmen as well as Senior Members without grade wear this device on both sides of the collar. cadet members without grade wear metal devices on both sides of the collar.

It does mean metal device on both sides for SMs w/o grade, exactly like C/AB. Same is true on Blues.

You need to read the entire page.  Also note the distinction between the seniors and cadet members without grade (C/AB).

I'm not sure I know what you mean by Airman status.

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major
general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.
b. Airman: Unless otherwise specified, includes all other uniformed members both senior and
cadet.

An SM w/o grade is basically CAP's Airman Basic and is evident in the USAF-style uniform when worn properly.

[A1Steaksauce]

Hmmmmm.......... let's see what would I change about CAP uniforms?

1. Get rid of Ultramarine everything (it looks really goofy), and switch to Navy blue w/white or the colors used by the military and ROTC/JROTC. If they have them why can't we?

2. No BBDU's I'm not sure who came up with those but they really do look weird.

3. Blues, blues and only blues. No aviator, corperate, or polo uniforms.

4. Insignia for C/B, the sheild in the enlisted insignia perhaps?

5. For C/Officers, insignia should be one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.

6. Blue berets optional as Cadet headgear, worn on both uniforms. A CAP shield patch is worn on beret regardless of grade. NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's and a St. Albans Cross  badge, similar to ES badges, on the right pocket of blues.

7. Change tape from Civil Air Patrol to USAF AUX on BDU's.

8. Get rid of all flashy colors from BDU wing/squadron/activity patches. and use the colors the military uses on theirs.

[Pylon]

Hmmmmm.......... let's see what would I change about CAP uniforms?

1. Get rid of Ultramarine everything (it looks really goofy), and switch to Navy blue w/white or the colors used by the military and ROTC/JROTC. If they have them why can't we?

A darker blue would be great.  The ultramarine color just doesn't look that great.

2. No BBDU's I'm not sure who came up with those but they really do look weird.

We need a corporate equivalent for the BDUs.  They have to say to keep our dual corporate and USAF-style uniform structure

3. Blues, blues and only blues. No aviator, corperate, or polo uniforms.

Again.  We need the corporate uniforms, and we need the members who wear them.  I may agree with you, however, on the usefulness of the polo.

4. Insignia for C/B, the sheild in the enlisted insignia perhaps?

They already have the CAP cutout insignia.  Why change what works just fine, for the sake of change, when we have plenty of other problems that need addressing first?

5. For C/Officers, insignia should be one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.

Another solution in search of a problem?  Again, the system we have now works beautifully fine, is steeped in tradition, and there's no solid reason to consider changing the Cadet Officer insignia.

6. Blue berets optional as Cadet headgear, worn on both uniforms. A CAP shield patch is worn on beret regardless of grade. NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's and a St. Albans Cross  badge, similar to ES badges, on the right pocket of blues.

NBB grads have recently been authorized to wear their earned berets under certain circumstances.  Already done.

As for a badge for the blues, why?  Badges show earned qualifications, not activity attendance.  Nobody gets a blues badge for going to IACE or COS... but you do get something else you can wear on your blues:  the NCSA ribbon.   

CAP likes the rule of no double-dipping for one activity/accomplishment anyways -- you go to an activity and you get one doo-dad.  The NCSA ribbon covers it for NBB on your blues, and theres still the patch for BDUs.

7. Change tape from Civil Air Patrol to USAF AUX on BDU's.

Not going to happen, when they're taking USAF AUX off of our aircraft, off of our MAJCOM patch, and other places.  Face it, we're Civil Air Patrol all the time (any time we're wearing our uniforms), and we're only sometimes the USAF Aux.  So that won't happen

8. Get rid of all flashy colors from BDU wing/squadron/activity patches. and use the colors the military uses on theirs.

Not required to wear your unit patch, and nobody requires units to develop patches with bright colors in them.  Your unit can design a patch in olive green and black if they want, and if they don't design one you like, you don't have to wear it.  Same with wing and activity patches -- they're optional.  Don't like the way they look on your uniform?  Don't wear 'em. 

[SarDragon]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

Overall, I think CAP (and the AF's image) is hurt much worse by having 20 different uniforms on display at every CAP event than it would be by having everyone in the same uniform even if it included overweight people. 

That covers the heavy folks. What about those of us with facial hair?

[shorning]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

Overall, I think CAP (and the AF's image) is hurt much worse by having 20 different uniforms on display at every CAP event than it would be by having everyone in the same uniform even if it included overweight people. 

That covers the heavy folks. What about those of us with facial hair?

I say we dye you orange.  Hey, it's just an idea.   

[RiverAux]

Well, that is a bit tougher.  The CG Aux allows beards as long as they are "well groomed and neatly trimmed" and has some specifics laying this out. 
But the CG has a more recent history of allowing facial hair so an argument can be made for it being traditional.  The Air Force, so far as I know has never allowed beards so allowing them for CAP members in AF-style uniforms would actually be a break. 

While looking in my CG Aux regs I was reminded that the CG has specific regulations about what uniforms can be worn in various situations.  One interesting thing is that boatcrews and aircrews are supposed to all wear the same uniform and it is up to the Coxswain or Aircraft Commander to decide which of the available uniforms will be worn on that mission. 

[A.Member]

Drop all corporate uniforms and have all members wear AF-style uniforms regardless of their weight.  The CG Aux only wears CG-style uniforms and has no specific weight requirements (a general requirement to present a military appearance is generally ignored).  So, an occassional Auxie is very obese and doesn't look good in the uniform -- the CG Aux has still ended up with a much closer relationship with the CG than CAP ever has had with the AF. 

I'm certainly not an expert on the CG Aux. but it's my understanding that they also have an "alternate" uniform.  Their manual refers to a "Blue Blazer outfit".  From Section E. Auxiliary Unique Items, page 10-19 of their uniform manual:

E.2. Blue Blazer Outfit:
The Blue Blazer may be single-breasted, two- or three-button, with civilian or
Auxiliary buttons, and with pockets (any kind). The Blue Blazer outfit is highly
recommended to be worn when an Auxiliarist in uniform does not present an
appearance in keeping with organizational standards of wear, or if the UDC does not
stock or have properly fitting sizes. (see Section C of this chapter) The Auxiliary
patch is sewn on the left breast pocket. Material is dark blue flannel, tropical
worsted, or similar commercial blend. The official blazer patch is round and
contains the Auxiliary logo with stars around it. The Auxiliary Blue Blazer outfit
may be substituted for all Auxiliary uniforms, except the Undress Blue Summer,
Working Blue, and OD uniforms. The Auxiliary Blue Blazer outfit may be
authorized by unit Commanding Officers for wear in office spaces while on duty at
Coast Guard units. Auxiliary Blue Blazer outfits are authorized as follows:

E.2.a. Women's Blue Blazer Outfit:
The Blue Blazer may be worn with white or gray dress slacks, white or gray skirts,
pleated or straight. Skirt and slacks are to be made of tropical worsted or polyester
blend. Dress slacks are full cut, straight hanging, and without cuffs. Neutral nylon
hose and plain unadorned black shoes with 1- to 2⅝-inch high heels complete the
outfit. Black socks may be worn with slacks.
The blouse is white, buttoned front, of simple design, without ruffles or
ornamentation. The blue tab tie is worn for normal occasions and the black tab tie
for formal occasions.

E.2.b. Men's Blue Blazer Outfit:
The Blue Blazer may be worn with white or gray dress trousers. They are to be
made of tropical worsted or polyester blend. The trousers are full cut, straight
hanging and without cuffs. Black socks and black dress shoes complete the outfit.
A white dress shirt and a dark blue necktie are worn for normal occasions, and black
bow tie for formal occasions.

[A.Member]

Not develop one, but standardize what uniforms are worn for what occassions.

Again, that should be up to the local commanders.  It's a "command responsibility" to set and enforce the standards.  It's not an issue that should even be on NHQ's radar. 

Agreed.

[RiverAux]

Never actually seen that one worn.....But, note that they haven't come up with alternate uniforms for field work comparable to the ODU. 

[Psicorp]

I think it would be a good idea to put uniform of the day into the regulations.  Of course, this can be done at all sorts of levels, but I think there has been an extreme reluctance to "force" people to wear specific uniforms most of the time, at least with senior members.  Cadets always are told exactly what to wear.


Having a national regulation will give squadron commanders some "cover".

You want NHQ to develop a uniform of the day for the local squadrons?  You've got to be kidding me! 

Oh I can see it now...the TPU is now mandatory and is the only authorized uniform Sunday through Friday.  On Saturday and Sunday BDUs may be worn if participating in mission or mission excersize...provided the TPU is brought along in case any stops are necessary...i.e. gas, dinner, etc.   Flightsuits are authorized only if the TPU for all crew members fit in the cargo compartment.

*Jose' Hemanez quote*  "oh i hope not."