What would you want to do with CAP uniforms?

[SARChick]

I have thought about this a few times.

I prefer the AF style BDU's and Blues. No problems there. Now at the risk of sounding un-American, I would take away the US Flag, in my opinion it's an Army thing (also I know some Hawk Rangers that were not happy to remove their LL patches). However, I love the Flag and believe it looks good on the BDU's, but as I said we are AF Aux, not Army. 

I would most likely prefer rank on the sleeves as opposed to the lapel.

Back to the Flag. Since we are going to keep it regardless, I would take a special activities patch (like what was previously worn on the right shoulder) and allow it to be placed half an inch below the Flag.

Just some things I would do. Just sounding off.

[SARChick]

I would just want to simply things. 

Why do Cadet Airman have rank on both sides of the their collars for the BDUs, but continue to wear rank on side and CAP cutouts on the other for the Blues?

Why are Officers limited to 2 badges on the Aviator shirt with Gray pants, but can have 4 with Blue pants or the Blues uniform.

Why do we have two different Recruiter's ribbons?

Why can't we have a simple standardized PT uniform?

Lots of questions and I know the answers to most of them, but that doesn't make it right.  The rules should be simple and easy to implement.  Currently, there are just too many "buts" and "ors" to allow everyone to know exactly what needs to be done.  Changes to previous changes that still haven't been added to the manual.

On things that don't have to deal with simplifying things; I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

Makes sense to me.

OOK, I'm sure some of these suggestions will be controversial to the you purests, but you asked:

Approve a khaki or light gray BDU uniform for summer.

Approve light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt.  It makes for a much cooler flight uniform in the summer months.

I actually kinda like the ultra marine background on embroidered tapes and rank insignia, but it doesn't go with the BBDU, so I'd change to a dark blue background.

Cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit.

Here's one for ya - a dark blue/black gore tex parka with both the BBDU and camo BDU.  In violation of the regs, I wear my dark blue w/black Cabela's gore-tex parka with my camo BDU's in rainy weather.  I really don't see the need in spending money on a camo gore-tex parka that I'm only going to wear a few times a year any way.  And seeing how they aren't in regs any way, I may as well wear the blue.  It actually doesn't look bad at all.

Approve black fleece for wear over BDU's like the Army does.

Adopt the no shine brown boots that are now allowed with the ABU.

And lastly.....approve the brown leather A-2 with the blue AF uniform as long as it has a CAP distinctive name patch on it.  I mean, come on, what's so sacred about the brown A-2?

I second the kahki or grey BDU's for summer. I actually believe that either grey or khaki would be outstanding year round. We put on woodland BDUs and then the orange vest, are we playing paintball or participating in ES? Although I must say the woodland is one thing that attracted me to CAP, but the missions remain the same no matter what.

[DNall]

I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

I can see a cord cause it's removable & such, but I feel more comfortable with a ribbon that equates to a semester or year. I think we go a little crazy w/ cords already.

1.Why do Cadet Airman have rank on both sides of the their collars for the BDUs, but continue to wear rank on side and CAP cutouts on the other for the Blues?

What would you like to see? I might guess that you would like to see rank on both sides for all uniform variations. Am I right?

That came along on my break, what was the point again? It's a logistic pain & costly. We still have to give them the cutouts up front & cycling one stripe was MUCH easier to keep stocks on hand than two. I don't know how much of it is THIS & how much is Vanguard sucking the big one, but I swear there's not one cadet in my Sq in correct uniform. It's beyond redicuous & I can't do anything about it.

2. Why are Officers limited to 2 badges on the Aviator shirt with Gray pants, but can have 4 with Blue pants or the Blues uniform.

From what I found on page 76 of 39-1, the same badges are authorized on the white/grays as on the blues. The last line is the one that says only 2 badges may be worn (and seems to contradict the previous portions of the page). I'm assuming that you would like to see the same badges authorized on the aviator combo as on blues.

I think they were trying to say two above the pocket & meant to have the same standard as blues, but honestly we get badges so stinkin easy. Part of the badge proposal we had in the portal was to make the specialty rating tracks FOUR levels (apprentice on bottom) and only give the basic badge for the second level (tech = senior rating lite, new content/req's on the end of master). The other thing discussed as a system of rules to define what badges take priority & which ones can be worn in which places, so you can't have four tech ratings for instance, but could still wear four if you were really well rounded & had lots of experience.

5. On things that don't have to deal with simplifying things; I would like to see a standardized color for Scholastic Honor Cadets.  Then each Wing could decide whether they wanted to implement the cord.

That is simplifying things, and that's the kind of idea I'm looking for. I imagine in 'officialese' we would say something like this: "Scholastic Honor Cadets will wear a cord of {insert color here}. Wing commanders will be the final authority for permission to wear."

We don't go a little crazy w/ cords already? I'm more comfortable w/a ribbon & clasps for each semester/year. I see the logic, and I'm all for recognition of this one, but a little on the over-blingage to me.

Still looking for blank slide = officer candidate = no more SM w/o grade. No kidding, we can't have an adult in the same uniform as a basic cadet. That's a serious problem from a risk mgmt perspective. I know you're imagining the typical 50yo SM versus a 13yo kid, but there's another end to that spectrum.

[LtCol White]

OK, I have a headache...arrggghhhh......

Some of the changes suggested have already been sent to HQ USAF after the NB in Reno. The cloth name badges for flight suits, restoring rank to the BDU cap, and a few others I do not recall off hand.

We don't need to create anymore NEW uniform combos. We need to trim it all down and have the USAF side of the uniforms and then a comparable Corp side. Nothing else.

USAF - service uniform, Mess Dress, BDU, flight suit.

Corp - Service uniform (TPU), Blazer combo, BBDU, blue flight suit. 

DNALL did some great work revamping the insignia over on portal and I definitely think that needs to go up the chain for review.

[Bluelakes 13]

I'll be in the minority in saying this, but I am a big proponent of a UNIform.  We have many outfits in CAP, but no UNIform.

I say have one UNIform that EVERYONE can wear.  Stop being exclusionary.  If that means no more USAF uniforms, so be it.  Standardize on the poloshirt (getting rid of those grades while we're at it) or an aviator uniform.

And stop creating more EXCLUSIONARY aviator outfits!  One step forward, two steps back.

[LtCol White]

Keeping the USAF heritage is crucial. Thus my suggestion of the only having one USAF and one Corp version of each for all

[sjtrupp]

For the Cadet Rank.  I don't care too much either way, except one rank and one cut out would more cost effective.

I prefer the cord, because it can be taken away.  Get a ribbon, it's always there.  They could just simply work hard for one semester for the ribbon, then drop their GPA later on.

One other thing I thought of would be to allow jeans with the Polo.  I mean, it's not a "uniform" it's a polo shirt.  Allowing jeans would make it a lot easier at times.  I was a local escort for IACE one year, and there were times when we weren't in uniform, but it would have been nice to wear the polo with jeans.

[DNall]

I'll be in the minority in saying this, but I am a big proponent of a UNIform.  We have many outfits in CAP, but no UNIform.

I say have one UNIform that EVERYONE can wear.  Stop being exclusionary.  If that means no more USAF uniforms, so be it.  Standardize on the poloshirt (getting rid of those grades while we're at it) or an aviator uniform.

And stop creating more EXCLUSIONARY aviator outfits!  One step forward, two steps back.

The problem with this is CAP started out different than it is today. We started out attached to the AF & in their uniforms meeting their standards. Until about 15 years ago we've always been in the AF chain of command & part of them. We've been punished for defying them by being pushed back a bit & had our uniforms cut further away from theirs. We're supposed to be earning our way back into the AF family, not doing our own thing. If you want absolute uniformity, it has to be the AF uniform & people that can't meet that can't wear a uniform & if that means they can't participate then so be it. Since that's been determined not to be acceptable, we have corporate-style alternatives. You don't have a choice of leaving the AF behind they are our soul & CAP doesn't exist in any form w/o belonging to them. So basically, NO!

The point made earlier address the issue of too many uniforms. The issue is not actually that we have so many, it's people not wearing them appropriately. You don't have a choice of what uniform to wear, & should never have that choice. If it's flight you should wear the flight suit, sage if you meet req's/blue if you don't; if it's field you should wear BDU if you can or BBDU if you can't; Wear short sleeve blues/aviator w/o tie in warm months, long sleeve w/ tie in cold months; service dress/blazer for semi-formal business like events; mess dress/civilian formal wear for formal occasions. You should not remotely own every combo. That's retarded. You should own either a full set of blues (long/short sleeve/tie & service coat) or a full set of the aviator/blaze/TPU style, NEVER both. Same deal with BDU/BBDU/flt suits. The issue is getting people to wear the right thing at the event. When you go to an event, you should ONLY see a the two uniform variations possible for the nature of that event. A mission may be the rare exception where you might want staff in blues/aviator, GTs in BDU/BBDU, and flight crews in flt suits, but that clearly delineates who's doing what. Write good op plans, follow & enforce them, do your job, including wearing what's designated as appropriate for it.

Oh, and Polo, I would flat cut as an official uniform. You'd be free to buy & wear the thing playing golf or whatever, but a flying club we are not. The big issue with the alternate corporate servce dress or whatever we're calling it is it doesn't fit logically into this uniform system. They're called coporate-STYLE uniforms & AF-STYLE uniforms for a reason. The corporates should look like business attire that ID's a person as a member, NOT uniforms. 

[LtCol White]

Ergo my earlier point. Thanks DNALL.  :clap:

[Hawk200]

So  far I've got a list of about 30 items, consolidated and showing when the same concept was voiced by a different person, or seconded.

The most popular ideas seem to be allowing rank on headgear of BDU's; navy blue accoutrements for both BDU's; unique insignia for SM NCO's; cloth nametags on flightsuits; BDU type or similar pants allowed for wear with polo shirts; and khaki or gray summer utilities.

I didn't intend to create a battleground here. I'm just looking for peoples ideas to see how many common ones there were.

[arajca]

The big issue with the alternate corporate servce dress or whatever we're calling it is it doesn't fit logically into this uniform system. They're called coporate-STYLE uniforms & AF-STYLE uniforms for a reason. The corporates should look like business attire that ID's a person as a member, NOT uniforms. 

The problem with that is the AF style uniform IS as business suit with epaulets. The proper description would be a three button, mid-gore jacket. Add with epaulets for officers. You can't get any closer to a business suit than that.

[DNall]

That's the AF's call & they were going for a professional business look to tie in with their TQM & best practices for business approach to warfighting. It's still vry obviously a uniform.

The CAP corporate-style uniform in all our history up to 10 years ago been civilian attire w/ a nametag on it. No badges or epaulet slides. None of that. The first break came with the smurf suit coveralls that had cloth badges but couldn't be mistaken for a uniform from space (from which I do believe you could see it). Then we put grade slides & badges on the aviator & ditched the black blazer type nametag. All this has occured since AF control has been lifted off CAP. During that same time we've gone from metal grade & blue CAP grade slides (which we'd all like to get back to) to maroon & now to gray. More recently the country came out of 9/11 w/ HLS missions to spare, but rather than empower CAP, as was suggested, we spent billions to create things like CERT & Homeland Security Air Wings, and purchase light aircraft fleets for the Army & AF. What does that tell you about CAP since we've been moved out of the AF chain of command? What does it tell you about what we should do to fix this?

[LtCol White]

Precisely DNALL. As we stated very clearly on Portal the key move is to get back closer to USAF. Fix the marriage. We have a professionalism issue that needs to be addressed and corrected. Unforntuatley there have been too many YAHOO's out there playing USAF that have really pissed them off.

Many of you folks out there have not been in CAP long enough to see h ow things were v/s how they are today. We all lived through the problems that damaged the relationship and suffered the wrath of USAF.

The relationship HAS to be fixed. Having all these types of uniforms is not the answer. The biggest  thing that USAF wants, and they have made it very clear, is for CAP to enforce its own regulations and hold its people accountable. USAF does, so why can't we?

[connelly]

I would switch to digitals. We are suposed to follow the air force and the Air Force has had digitals for over a year.

[A.Member]

What would I do?

USAF Style:
Flight suits:  no change...including the Majcom patch (stays as is)

Woodland BDUs:  Change name tape to read "USAF AUX".  Mandatory removal of Wing arm patch (currently optional wear).  Remove American Flag arm patch - we're not affiliated with the Army.  Eventually move to new digital USAF style ACU (several years down the road).

Blues: no change...matching blue epaulets would be nice but gray is fine.

USAF style should never lag more than a year or two behind current style.


Corporate:
Drop it!

Seriously, why do we need a corporate uniform?  Answer:  Simply put, it's because we have far too many very overweight, out-of-shape members (I know, round is a shape but anyway...).  The corporate uniform is a crutch.  This is a problem in our organization whether anyone wants to admit it or not.  Adhere to the weight standards or go on hiatus until the issue is corrected. 

Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen so...

TPU:  Drop it.  It's horrible for more reasons than I could list here.  It never should've gotten off the ground.  Go back to blazer, tie, and gray slacks.  However, wear of this uniform should only be if a member doesn't meet weight guidelines.  If you can't meet the standard, then you should look nothing remotely like it.  The coat tie is a decent professional, corporate look.

Polo shirt:  Drop it.  You want to wear a polo shirt?  Buy one from Vanguard and wear it on the golf course.  It is not a professional look.

BDU:  Same changes as USAF style.

Flight suits:  Same changes (no change) as USAF style.

[lordmonar]

I would switch to digitals. We are suposed to follow the air force and the Air Force has had digitals for over a year.

Strange.....except for the test/demo groups....I have not seen any of the ABUs around my base.  Last I heard....they should be ready for issue in January, and then only in limited numbers.  I expect by summer or fall next year they will be available for general purchase.

And this is a prime example why I want to switch to BBDU's...if we slavishly follow the USAF on this we will have to change our uniforms every 15 years or so.   With every service dumping the BDU, they are going to get scarce and/or expensive soon.  Now is the time to transition to a uniform that will be our own and still be professional.

[lordmonar]

Corporate:
Drop it!

Seriously, why do we need a corporate uniform?  Answer:  Simply put, it's because we have far too many very overweight, out-of-shape members (I know, round is a shape but anyway...).  The corporate uniform is a crutch.  This is a problem in our organization whether anyone wants to admit it or not.  Adhere to the weight standards or go on hiatus until the issue is corrected.

You can't fly missions with out pilots.  You can't run squadrons without people.  The Air Force can say shape up or ship out because they are being paid to be within standards.  You can't do that to a volunteer organisation.

[A.Member]

...the Air Force has had digitals for over a year.

No.  There was some wear testing on the original design a year+ ago.  That was scrapped for a new design which will go into production in the next couple months.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123017545 

[A.Member]

You can't fly missions with out pilots.

And you can't fly if you can't fit in the airplane.  As a practical matter, you also limit the useful load, especially on a 172, to the point that you may lose a scanner.  That negatively impacts the mission. 

But we also have more missions than just flying.  We have the cadet program - officers have an obligation to lead by example. 
 

You can't run squadrons without people.  The Air Force can say shape up or ship out because they are being paid to be within standards.  You can't do that to a volunteer organisation.

Why not?  Have you taken the AFIADL 13 course yet?  What does it say about an officer's responsibilities when it comes to health and fitness?  We are a volunteer organization.  That doesn't mean we don't have standards. 

[DNall]

And this is a prime example why I want to switch to BBDU's...if we slavishly follow the USAF on this we will have to change our uniforms every 15 years or so.   With every service dumping the BDU, they are going to get scarce and/or expensive soon.  Now is the time to transition to a uniform that will be our own and still be professional.

There is not "our own" !!! We're either part of the AF family or we're not. From before Napoleon was born, before Rome was first inhabited, uniforms have always & still very much are intentionally & thoughtfully designed as major psychological symbols of  relationships. Relationships between individuals, branches, orgs, whatever, and are a decent meassure of the strength or weakness of those relationships. If the AF changes to kilts, we'll follow suit a couple years later (and hope they come to tehir senses in the meantime). If your lookng for the other side of the practical coin you're trying to state, within a few years after the ABUs are standard they'll be avail from surplus & for cheap purchase, just like BDUs were when they were standard.

You can't fly missions with out pilots.  You can't run squadrons without people.  The Air Force can say shape up or ship out because they are being paid to be within standards.  You can't do that to a volunteer organisation.

You don't think there's enough private citizens out there able to join & get qual'd to be mission pilots & GTLs that DO meet the ht/wt/grooming requirements? There's a saying, "You can't reach second with your foot stuck on first." Do I really think we need to cut all these people? No, not really, but they should be in professional appeaing business attire that in no way resembles any kind of uniform - ie back to the aviator combo w/ the blazer nametag & no slides/badges. TPU obviously falls to that one also.

When you're flying, the weather & terrain don't care if you're getting a paycheck or not, and niether do I. We need to step up & meet a reasonable facsimile of AF standards for our grade or we need to find something else to do with our time - that by the way necessitates opening up lower grades on the enlisted or warrant side, which I think is entirely appropriate.

A.Member: I sympathize with your positions. I'd like to see most of that as well. However, some are unrealistic. For one, we're not actually named the AF Aux, we are named CAP & tasked to act as auxiliary to the AF. Congress would have to pass something authorizing us to do business as (dba) USAF Aux & whatever varrious forms of that, and that would ONLY happen if AF takes control & we're restored to their chan of command in one form or another, which is distinctly possible.

ABUs (digitals): will be fully fielded to the AF by 2009, CAP will pick them up within two years of that at the point there are surplusses avail & BDUs are not in sufficiant quantity. That's all there is to it.