Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2009, 05:43:48 AM
Just because the government chooses not to enforce the law...does not mean they can't.  If someone puts on a set of BDU's and tries to get on base you can bet 711 will get used.....but the DoD is not going to go after the local cops, or Jim Bob for wearing BDUs out hunting.

Either way....come 2011 when the BDUs are no longer a military uniform.....then the DoD can't do anything...even if the wanted to.

If some numb-nut is putting on a set of BDU's from the local Army/Navy that some National Guard troop has just sold/consigned because of getting the ACU, leaving the insignia and tapes on, and walking around trying to pretend that they're Master Sergeant Joe Blow, then darn straight they need to be nailed for it.

There's a lot of hunting around here and I see hunters wearing old BDU's; in the main properly, with the insignia off.

But according to the Wikipedia list of the U.S. Federal agencies outside of DOD (and I'm not counting the USCG; they're not formally part of DOD but they are most definitely a military service) wearing Woodlands, they'll likely still be around for quite a while.  I imagine, though, that eventually USPHS and NOAA, since they already wear modified Navy uniforms, will eventually go with CG ODU's (NOAA already has) or Navy working uniform.

So I think we'll still be able to get Woodlands fairly easily.

Getting woodlands is not the issue....we already have them.....I'm sure that if we used them for our corprate uniforms no one would have an issue.....even if they had a legal standing to do so.

Either way.....I don't see the need to adopt them as the corporate field uniform.  The BBDU works just fine.  BDUs used or not are not any cheaper.  Sure there are tonnes of them in DRMO and surplus stores now....but in 5-6 years the only wood land BDUs will be those made my Proper....who make the BBDU just as cheap.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2009, 12:01:25 AM
Getting woodlands is not the issue....we already have them.....I'm sure that if we used them for our corprate uniforms no one would have an issue.....even if they had a legal standing to do so.

Either way.....I don't see the need to adopt them as the corporate field uniform.  The BBDU works just fine.  BDUs used or not are not any cheaper.  Sure there are tonnes of them in DRMO and surplus stores now....but in 5-6 years the only wood land BDUs will be those made my Proper....who make the BBDU just as cheap.

I would be in full agreement with you, if the BBDU's were easier to lay hold of.  Yes, there's the Internet, but I like it a lot better if I can actually try them on to ascertain the fit.

Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

Quote from: PHall on December 29, 2009, 05:28:16 AM
Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

Thank you, but I've been down that route...the local PD/ES supplier only carries black ones, and they're not the same cut.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 29, 2009, 05:34:07 AM

Quote from: PHall on December 29, 2009, 05:28:16 AM
Most uniform stores that cater to police seem to have them, you might try there.

Thank you, but I've been down that route...the local PD/ES supplier only carries black ones, and they're not the same cut.

Huh? BDU's are a standard pattern. Black ones will fit just like blue ones. Or Woodland ones. Or Desert ones. Or Tan ones....

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2009, 05:53:02 AM
Huh? BDU's are a standard pattern. Black ones will fit just like blue ones. Or Woodland ones. Or Desert ones. Or Tan ones....

From one manufacturer, yes.  Across manufacturers, no way.

Same variation as in civilian sizes runs in some of these suppliers, especially the low-end ones.  They also might not be "BDU's", but instead tactical pants with different pockets, etc.

Quote from: Rotorhead on December 28, 2009, 01:43:26 PM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 28, 2009, 04:58:49 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on December 28, 2009, 02:12:54 AM
Even if it is patented does not mean they "control" it...only that they get royalties off its future uses.

The control that you are looking for is the USC that says that civilians can't use military uniforms.  So once the BDU is no longer an official USAF uniform then the USAF would loose control of it.

Having said that......I still don't think CAP should adopt it as our corporate field uniform.

Quote from: USC 10,711Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Hmmm, I'm certainly no lawyer, but I'm thinking anyone could successfully argue that once half the planet started wearing BDU's they are no longer a distinctive part of the Army, Air Force, etc, uniform.  The new uniforms, sure, but BDU's lost any distinctiveness a long time ago.  Had the military protested when cops, sheriffs, etc started wearing them it might be another story.

The Air Force can still tell CAP what to wear, which trumps our discussion.

I imagine the reason we wear BDUs (i.e., as an Air Force style uniform) now is because we lobbied the USAF at some point for the "right" to do so.

If we decided that BBDUs were more appropriate, I can't believe USAF would object.

We wear the BDU's as we had worn the Gren Utilities before them. They were the Air Forces workinmg uniform, and transitioned to them after the Air Force had done so. Blue BDU's came about because they didn't want senior's outside the standards wearing the Air Force uniform. Prior to that, seniors outside the standards wore them without rank.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 29, 2009, 06:08:34 AMFrom one manufacturer, yes.  Across manufacturers, no way.

Same variation as in civilian sizes runs in some of these suppliers, especially the low-end ones.  They also might not be "BDU's", but instead tactical pants with different pockets, etc.

True BDU's shouldn't have any variation at all. I've owned six different color pattern BDU's from different manufacturers, and they all fit the same.

Now, I've seen a variety of different types of clothing labeled as BDU's. The funniest was basically the old OG107(507?) fatigue in woodland camo fabric. Even the side pockets were just patch pockets.

I've also seen a Type I jungle fatigue pattern in woodland camo. Kinda hard to market it as a BDU when it has exposed pocket buttons, on slanted upper pockets.

Actual BDU's shouldn't fit any differently.

But not all law enforcement personnel wear "actual BDU's;" many wear the kind of "tactical" gear that has been pointed out here, and which my local LE supply shop carries.

Quote from: CyBorg on December 29, 2009, 03:43:54 PM
But not all law enforcement personnel wear "actual BDU's;" many wear the kind of "tactical" gear that has been pointed out here, and which my local LE supply shop carries.

True. My point is that actual "BDU"'s shouldn't have any variation to them. Any real BDU's will fit the same across the board. If they don't, they're not real regardless of whether they're labeled as such.

May I ask the purpose of this thread? As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia. What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards? Why bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2009, 07:51:25 PM
May I ask the purpose of this thread? As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia. What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards? Why bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

Like a said earlier, it all comes down to the "cool" factor rather than utility for some members

Quote from: cap235629 on December 29, 2009, 07:55:24 PMLike a said earlier, it all comes down to the "cool" factor rather than utility for some members

Probably is. IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

People rationalize things in all kinds of roundabout ways.

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2009, 07:51:25 PM
What is wrong with the BBDU for members that don't meet standards?

With a single uniform, it's another way that members can justify autonomy. Many feel that if the AF doesn't have a say, they can do what they want: "I joined up, so this is how it's gonna work." It's a lot of personal integrity failure. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people left because of the catering to the lowest common denominator. There are so many here (not everybody though) that feel that they're second class because they don't meet certain standards, so they wish to remove the options for those who do.

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2009, 07:51:25 PMWhy bring back from the grave a uniform that is basically out of production since no military service wears it.

Not really out of production, just not produced enough that the expense would be worth it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2009, 08:18:20 PM
Probably is. IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

I would not be one of those.  Subdued insignia is not needed.

I really do like the BBDU's...but as I've said, many times, they are not easy to get for me.

Quote from: BillB on December 29, 2009, 07:51:25 PM
As I understand it, USAF has already OK'd the ABU for CAP. Only holdup is the distinticive CAP insignia.

Not the case.  There has been some indications that they would be open to it, but first CAP in the form of the NB has to approve it and then it would officially go to the AF for their approval.  My guess is that CAP won't take its first step until they have been told unofficially by the AF that it would be approved. 

Quote from: Hawk200 on December 29, 2009, 08:18:20 PM
IF it happened, I'd bet the first thing that people would be pushing for is subdued tapes and insignia, with the justification that "It's not the Air Force's uniform, we can do anything we want with it".

No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 30, 2009, 12:39:07 AM
No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on December 30, 2009, 02:48:46 AM
I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

Agreed.

And I acknowledge error...my local Army/Navy put in a special order today for a set of BBDU's for me.

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on December 30, 2009, 02:48:46 AM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 30, 2009, 12:39:07 AM
No need for subdued insignia, but I would love to see the ultramarine backing go away.  Bright lettering or insignia on matching fabric wouldn't be so terrible.  Or at least a backing that isn't quite so garish.

I would like to see it go from ultra-marine blue to the navy blue (like our blue flight suit insignia).

I'd add a third on that one. We don't need subdued, but navy would look a lot better. I wouldn't bother with requiring tapes on BDU's (maybe allow it as an option), but navy or midnight blue tapes on ABU's would probably look pretty good. Ultramarine was fine on pickle suits, but those days are gone.

BBDU's simply phase out the UM Blue through attrition (yeah, I know it could take a while).