"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

[bosshawk]

Gunner C: those "guttless wonders" that you reference are likely still hiding behind their desks in order to not have to confront any tough decisions.  Or they only go to Wing Hq once a month, in order to sign meaningless PAs.

[Rotorhead]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

So, you'll ignore the regs when you pass the phase-out date?

[Eclipse]

Gunner C: those "guttless wonders" that you reference are likely still hiding behind their desks in order to not have to confront any tough decisions.  Or they only go to Wing Hq once a month, in order to sign meaningless PAs.

Why do some of you have to resort to personal insults? 

The people you are denigrating are volunteers, just like the rest of us, and with a lot more responsibility than the majority of the rest of the membership.

[davidsinn]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

So, you'll ignore the regs when you pass the phase-out date?

What regs? There still is not an ICL stating it's dead.

[FW]

Since the NEC seems to have been "out of order" in it's recent decision,  I expect the NB will have a very healthy discussion on, first, procedures and, second, the uniform.  I'm sure a secret ballot will be requested because 18 or 19 wing commanders do not have tenure.  I don't think it is wise to assume what the outcome will be however, I know it will be a fair, open and well vetted one.  It's time for our leaders to put closure on our uniform "problems" so we can concentrate on more important matters like our cadets, our missions and, our service.

[Spike]

The people you are denigrating are volunteers, just like the rest of us, and with a lot more responsibility than the majority of the rest of the membership.

Actually, I think as a Squadron Commander, I spend WAY more time on CAP then they do.  Some, if I am not mistaken have not only been in CAP many many many years LESS than a lot of us, but received "special appointments" that "regular" members do not.  They made Major in the time it took many of us to make Captain, thus being eligible for board positions.  Do not forget it is all political anyway.  So if I am not good at playing politics, I will at best be a Group Commander one day.

What is so demanding of them?  Attending vacations meetings twice a year??  Maybe a monthly conference call?? 

Seriously, don't think one group is better than another just because they say there is "responsibility".  I am responsible for the welfare of 87 people, 68 of them Cadets.  You are a Commander right?  I worry about each of my members each time there is a mission.  I take the time to get know all of them.  I am honestly interested in their lives.  I try to provide a positive environment and create productive results.  I meet deadlines (like ORM) that are thrown on the Squadrons last minute with a few weeks to get it done.  I volunteer more hours each year than any other member I know of (personally). 

So when I tell a member "oh yeah, you should save up for the new Corporate Service Uniform" and then turn around after they bought it to tell them "by the way it is being phased out", it makes me look like an idiot, and it down right bothers the hell out of me.  So, adding up the figures at the meeting last week, just under $1700 was spent by new members in my unit on the CSU.  I have three that told me they will not be renewing, and made me feel like [mess] before they left (never to be seen again). 

So thank you NEC, for a job well done.  Thank you General Courter for not giving any kind of heads up that this may be a possibility. 

So, in conclusion, I am a terd, whose members believe betrayed them----- and I feel like a dirt-bag. 

End of rant.           

[wingnut55]

WOW I HAVE BEEN OFF FOR A FEW WEEKS AND WHAT DID I MISS???

sad WE ARE ROTTING AWAY

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

So, you'll ignore the regs when you pass the phase-out date?

Ummm...no.

Regs on a phase-out date, when they are officially passed down, in the form of an ICL or otherwise, are someone (or many someones) up the food chain saying "don't wear it anymore."

One thing I've learnt from almost 16 years in CAP is "believe it when you see it in writing."

[Rotorhead]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

So, you'll ignore the regs when you pass the phase-out date?

What regs? There still is not an ICL stating it's dead.

There will be, at some point.

[davidsinn]

Again...I will wear this uniform until someone up the food chain tells me "don't wear it anymore."

So, you'll ignore the regs when you pass the phase-out date?

What regs? There still is not an ICL stating it's dead.

There will be, at some point.

I would assume so. Until that point this whole discussion is academic.

[NCRblues]

Almost every person on here at one point in time or another has said things in cap take time, or give the higher ups a break, their just volunteers as well. But now you all want an answer right this second, what happened to things take time? IF (and that's a big if) the NB revisits this, then so be it, but It won't happen today and It won't happen tomorrow. No one said you have to stop wearing the darn thing right now, so just rein yourselves in a little and wait. Anyone that has served in the military will know that things don't always happen the way they should or on the time they should.

[Gunner C]

Big difference between "right this minute" and "since 7 Nov".  I think we could have reasonably expected something by now.  Yes, I think "reasonable" is the operative word.

[NCRblues]

A little over a month, with one of the biggest traveling holidays of the year located in the middle. I still think we should just cool it a little while longer before riding that bull.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A little over a month, with one of the biggest traveling holidays of the year located in the middle. I still think we should just cool it a little while longer before riding that bull.

^^^Yes.

Those who have served in the military, or at some length in time, know the Prime Directive:

HURRY UP AND WAIT!

I'm on the "it ain't over until it's over" side.

[davidsinn]

It was the NEC that killed it. The NEC minutes do not mention the AF wishing it dead.

   
• 3. Elimination of the New Corporate Uniform
  
  COLCORTUM/RMR stated that he would like to propose an agenda item to eliminate thenew corporate uniform that was instituted just a few years ago.  It seems to have caused some consternationand real confusion about what is our real CAP uniform, as far as what iscorporate and what is the Air Force-style uniform that we can now wear.  He made the following motion:
  
  COLCORTUM/RMR MOVED and COL MYRICK/PCR seconded that theNational Executive Committee approve that the "New Corporate Uniform,"—NewCorporate Service Coat and all combinations thereof (blue)—be phased out as aCivil Air Patrol uniform because it is insufficiently distinctive from the AirForce-style uniform thus creating unnecessary confusion to the membership andthe general public, with a phase-out date of 31 January 2011.
  
  Therewas clarification that elimination of the "New Corporate Uniform" includes theService Coat as well as the white aviator shirt and blue slacks, jackets,overcoats, sweaters—everything associated with the "New Corporate Uniform".
  
  Therewas also clarification that the black jacket was originally authorized with thegray and white so continued wear of the black jacket would be authorized withgray and white and blue and white underneath.
  
  THE MOTION CARRIED
  
  FOLLOW-ONACTION:  Implementation of policy,notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform
  
  
  4. Authorization of Wear of Gray Pants and White Aviator Shirts for Cadetsover 18
  
  COLJENSEN/SWR MOVED and COL VAZQUEZ/MER seconded that theNational Executive Committee authorize wear of gray pants and white aviatorshirts as a uniform for cadets over the age of 18 years, effective immediately.
  .
  THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
  
  FOLLOW-ONACTION:  Implementation of policy,notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform
  
  
  5. Uniform Process Action Team
  
  COLCHAZELL/CS recounted that at the winter 2009 National Board meeting, theNational Commander authorized the Uniform Process Action Team to reviewprocedures for recommending, approving, and implementing changes to all CAPuniforms; to identify process deficiencies with the current system; andrecommend to the National Commander
  
  
  arevised process.  (A copy provided toNational Board members).  He stated thatcurrently there are two systems in place for approving uniform items.  The first one is a process defined by CAPM39-1, paragraph 1-4, which is problematic because there is ambiguous authorizefor national approval.  The secondprocess is for members of the National Board to submit agenda items containingproposed changes to the uniform for consideration by the entire board.  This process is problematic because it isn'tclear, based on the language of CAPM 39-1, that the National Board has theauthority to unilaterally approve changes to the uniform.  Therefore, the team has developedrecommended changes to the National Commander for future uniform changes, andCol Chazell made the following motion:
  
  COLCHAZELL/CS MOVED and COL CARR/GLR seconded that theNational Executive Committee approve a policy that, in order to improve andstreamline uniform change proposals, the official procedure for making changesto uniforms and their accoutrements shall be processed in accordance with theprocedure recommended by the Uniform Process Action Team by memo to theNational Commander dated 23 June 2009, effective immediately.
  
  Therecommendations by the Uniform Process Team in the 23 June 2009 memo to theNational Commander to change CAPM 39-1, Paragraph 1-4, Changes to the Uniform,read as follows
  
  "a. How to Recommend Changes to theUniform.  New or changed uniform items may not be authorizedwithout approval of the National Commander, except as specified in Table 1-3 ofthis manual.  This includes suchspecialty wear as distinctive shirts and other "informal" items worn by groupsof members performing similar specialty CAP functions and duties.  Unit commanders will forward recommendedchanges to the uniform, insignia, accessories, or related items, from any CAPmember, through channels to National Headquarters/DP (Ms. Parker).  The chain of command is the sole vehicle forcommunicating proposed uniform changes to National Headquarters/DP; anycommandeer in the chain can choose not to forward recommendations.  Once received by National Headquarters/DP,recommended changes will be forwarded to the Uniform Committee for review andapproval.  Recommended changes approvedby the Uniform Committee will then be forwarded to the National Commander witha recommended implementation process. The National Commander will then review the recommended changes.  Recommended changes approved by the NationalCommander will be returned to National Headquarters/DP for announcement andimplementation. 
  
  "Recommendedchanges not approved at echelons below National will be communicated to theproponent at the discretion or method of the disapproving commander.  Recommended changes not approved at Nationalwill be announced using a mechanism of mass distribution such as the UniformCommittee webpage or a nationally distributed electronic newsletter.
  
  "Implementationof approved changes to Air Force-style uniforms will be held in abeyance untilthe recommended changes are approved by the proper USAF authority.
  
  
  
  "Insofaras decorations, ribbons, badges, patches, and all other accoutrements to theuniform are concerned, it will remain the province of the National Board toenact their creation or abolition. However, their initial design, redesign, and proper wear requirementswill be processed in the same manner as all other uniform changes.  Wing commanders may continue to approve unitorganizational patches as authorized by CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4.
  
  "b.Composition of the Uniform Committee
  TheChair of the Uniform Committee will be selected using the same procedure usedfor all other National Staff positions.  The Uniform Committee, comprised of 5-10 officers, will report to theNational Commander through the National Chief of Staff and will be selected bythe Chair with prior approval by the National Chief of Staff and NationalCommander.
  
  "Aswith other National Staff positions, the Uniform Committee, including theChair, will be selected based upon the relevant background and skill possessedby the candidate.
  
  "Asmembers of the Uniform Committee, officers would be expected to hold themembership and overall program above parochial or unit-based loyalties.
  
  "Individualswith substantive knowledge of uniforms either from US military or CAPbackgrounds will be sought.  Variousmission areas will be represented on the committee.  The National Historian, the CAP Chief Master Sergeant, and aCAP-USAF advisor, appointed by the CAP-USAF/CC, will serve ex-officio.
  
  "Internaloperation of the Uniform Committee will be at the discretion of the Chair."
  
  COLJENSEN/SWR MOVED TO POSTPONE and COL CHARLES/NC seconded thepostponement until the winter 2010 National Board meeting, with guidance.
  
  THE MOTION TO POSTPONE CARRIED
  FOLLOW-ON ACTION:  Guidance was provided as a recommendation that at the timerecommended uniform changes go the National Commander they would also have tobe posted, in the same manner as items not approved, for a period of 30 days toreceive feed-back.  After that 30-dayfeed-back period, then the National Commander would be permitted to confirm orreject a recommended change.  Include inthe winter 2010 National Board agenda.[/l][/l]

[FW]

Refer to my last post.

IMHO, the NB will be spending significant time revisiting the above issues at the winter meeting.  I hope they can keep the discussions on a professional level and, an honest, fair and just conclusion will be made.

[NCRblues]

WHY?? Why are they going to waste cap's time revisiting this? You are only upset because you lost some money, im sorry but my god. Your are basically wishing for the NB to descend into a constant debate that will suck the time that could be used to make changes that are good for cap.

Several times in this thread, emails from Gen. courter, the GLR/CC and the Ohio wing cc, were shown, and those members of the NEC and NB told their members that the air force wanted this to go away. Why is it so hard to realize that the air force (this time) allowed us to save face, instead of slapping it??

Those of you that will come on here and say if the air force disliked the uniform, they would have said something. NO. It happens all the time in the real military as well as corporations. Instead of coming down and saying "cap you idiots get ride of that thing", someone called someone in the cap chain of command and STRONGLY suggested that it goes away.

This is like banging my head against the brick wall. I hope the NB does not revisit this. This will make us look like wannabe cry babies. I am so frustrated.

[FW]

Easy, bro.  Right now, the only problem, IMO, is the way the NEC handled the matter. There are specific rules that need to be followed; as to procedure in CAP.  It looks like the NEC did not follow them. 

The power points, letters, etc.  are conflicting and are not definative.  From every source I could contact.  There was no official "change of mind" by the Air Force.  There was no "unofficial" response either.

For better or worse, the NB will most likely revisit the issue. 

We are not a "cult".  We are an organization based on rules, policies and regulations.  We must abide by them or else we become a rabble.  Shame on those who can't or won't.

BTW, I did not spend any money on the "CSU",  I was against it from the begining but, majority rules in CAP...

[RiverAux]

Oh my gosh, they want to put all authority for approving uniform changes in the hands of the National Commander?  Didn't we just learn our lesson with having a National Commander push through a bunch of changes that have almost been entirely reversed?   Just think if he had complete control over uniforms!