USAF Tropical Dress- Historical

[Major Carrales]

The following is a USAF uniform variant from teh mid-1950s.  While it is white in color, does it not have a similar cut as out post-McPeak tunics (although it is 4-button)?

Figure 3: The US Air Force white tropical dress uniform as adopted in 1955.

Taken from AFM: 35-10 (1956) and the Air Officer Guide (1956 – 9th edition)

Anyone ever see one in person?

Works Cited...
This is from a webpage called http://usafflagranks.com/index.html

AN EDUCATIONAL SITE DEDICATED TO THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE FROM 1947 TO 1995 – EVOLUTION AND HISTORY OF THE USAF OFFICER UNIFORM - UNIFORMS, FLIGHT SUITS AND OTHER ITEMS ONCE OWNED BY U.S. AIR FORCE GENERAL OFFICERS

[Timbo]

Wow...that's a cool website.  And yes the cut is very similar.

[Major Carrales]

Wow...that's a cool website.  And yes the cut is very similar.

As an historian, I found that to be one of the finest websites in introducing USAF uniform history to interested parties.  It has a bit of a WOW factor. It is run by a Brother at St. Mary's university in San Antonio who as an impressive collection.

I would like to see such a thing at the CADETSTUFF WIKI. 

[Smithsonia]

I used to have a white pith helmet with Air Force Insignia for tropical wear. We wore light weight khakis, ties, half boots, and white tropical pith helmets and white leggings as Non-Comm tropical dress in the 60's in Vietnam.

I am familiar with the whites from looking at historic photos... but never seen these in the flesh.

We wore the helmets on the flight line, moving trucks in and out of C-130s. We wore pressed for dress uniforms for inspection with white pistol belts (and leggings) then went back to our standard greens for everyday work wear. Circa 1968-70 as I remember. I've still got the helmet somewhere... I haven't seen it for years. Basically it was standard for Hawaii, Okinawa, and South Vietnam. I often carried 2 of them (one of them I kept clean) and the other was more knock around. Except for being handed a regular GI combat green helmet on occasions when I was on guard duty... which I turned in with the rifle, ammo, and pistol, to the armory after duty -- we wore the pith helmet.

Mine rubbed on my forehead and blew off in strong winds (like when the plane started up) but there you have it. With 10 C-130s turning all 4 engines on the flight line... there would be 5 or 6 helmets blowing around in the breeze. As I remember none of them had a chin strap. Not a good system with 5 or 6 guys running around the flight line tracking rolling helmets with their owners heads down. No accidents as I recall but goofiness and comedy ensued.

[Camas]

I was stationed at Albrook AFB in the Panama Canal Zone from late '63 to late '65 and a number of enlisted AF members wore the pith helmet along with the shorts that were still available with the old 505's.  I never saw an officer wear one though. And yes, now and then we'd see officers wearing the "whites" for formal ceremonies. I believe those were cut along the lines of the old 1084 blues.

[Smithsonia]

We used to be around a bunch of Aussie's -- They had short sleeve loose fitting shirts and khaki shorts with bush hats and packs/sea bags that weighed half what we had to carry. I never looked in one but I assume they had what they needed meaning we had way too much.

I've always thought we carried more than is likely to ever be used. Seven different uniforms and multiples of each: 1- Baby Blue (tropical) dress uniform, 1-Summer (short jacket) Khaki dress, 1-AF blue dress uni, 3 sets tuck in Khaki's, 3 sets Fatigue Greens, 2 flight suits, 2 PT gear, flight vest, resource/survival gear, 1-wet weather gear, 3 sets of boots, 2 pairs of shoes, 1-grease monkey coverall, leggings, undershirts,scivvies, civvies, 3 flight caps, 2 ball caps, service cap, work gloves, pith helmets, booney gear, several white shirts, several blue shirts, flight jacket, bivvy bag, ditty kit, swimsuit, towel, shoe shine kit, 2 pistol belts, 4 web belts, 130-150lbs, lbs plus.
Since we were almost always TDY and forward deployed we brought everything with us, although not on every trip.

I guess I'm surprised they never gave me a complete set of dress whites... probably because I never got to go to nice parties. OR couldn't be trusted to keep it clean. They did have Fatigues whites in the 60s-70s... medical personnel and orderlies mostly. BUT I did see some guys on other duties in whites.

[Smokey]

As I recall , in the movie "Strategic Air Command" the whites were worn a couple of times.

[Cecil DP]

As I recall , in the movie "Strategic Air Command" the whites were worn a couple of times.

Don't cite movies for accuracy or historical fact.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Well, the Army designed a uniform for the soon-to-be-separate Air Force back in the late 1940s that was best characterized as a "plain blue suit."

This looks like a white incarnation of that design. McPeak's uniform, after a retrofit, is THIS, only in blue, and with one less button.

Why is the Air Force wanting to go back to an Army uniform to begin with? The existing uniform speaks to the desire to be separate from the Army... which was the idea, going back to Mitchell. They oughta leave it alone, and clean it up a little. (And CAP needs to clean it up a bit more -- too many of those enamel shields are authorized in too many places.)

[Hawk200]

Well, the Army designed a uniform for the soon-to-be-separate Air Force back in the late 1940s that was best characterized as a "plain blue suit."

From what I recall Hap Arnold designed it (then again, I'm probably wrong). I do know McPeak was the one who decided to adopt it, citing historical precedent.

Why is the Air Force wanting to go back to an Army uniform to begin with? The existing uniform speaks to the desire to be separate from the Army... which was the idea, going back to Mitchell.

The biggest thing is that most Air Force personnel don't consider it military enough. It may have started simple and clean, but the changes made don't really keep it that way any more. Since it looks more like a modified civilian suit, a lot of the accoutrements don't really look right on it.

(And CAP needs to clean it up a bit more -- too many of those enamel shields are authorized in too many places.)

CAP has the same limit that the Air Force does: four badges. Many people wear more, and I think it is honestly because they don't know better. The reference on only four badges is not in one of the first few chapters so it tends to get missed. We then end up with a gaudy appearance. Got to read the whole thing, not just the first part. Most people think that they don't need to know about any of the uniforms that they aren't wearing.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I kind of like the uniform in this post. It just seems to look better than the current one. Most of those old uniforms just had class.

[Timbo]

...Why is the Air Force wanting to go back to an Army uniform to begin with? The existing uniform speaks to the desire to be separate from the Army... which was the idea, going back to Mitchell...

History brother.  Also, you may want to get your information on Mitchell from a better source than Wikipedia. 

He fought for the inclusion of air power as an Army asset, with Air Branch Officers in control of it. 

The movie about the Mitchell Court Martial is wonderfully done, but is not historically "right on", either. 

[Smithsonia]

For those that think the CAP uniform is too fussy and too busy... Don't wear every piece of jewelry you've got. Meaning, just because you can fit it on your chest, collar, shoulder, and any where else, doesn't mean it looks better. I keep my Dress Uniform to the minimum and leave space on my office wall to hang the rest of it.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

...Why is the Air Force wanting to go back to an Army uniform to begin with? The existing uniform speaks to the desire to be separate from the Army... which was the idea, going back to Mitchell...

History brother.  Also, you may want to get your information on Mitchell from a better source than Wikipedia. 

He fought for the inclusion of air power as an Army asset, with Air Branch Officers in control of it. 

The movie about the Mitchell Court Martial is wonderfully done, but is not historically "right on", either. 

Uh, I didn't need Wikipedia. I have him hanging on my wall, beside Amelia, Ira and Chuck. As if that wasn't enough...

"To carry out effectively this mission of strategic attack, (Mitchell) argued that it was necessary to separate aviation from the Army and Navy because they were too traditional and surface oriented. Mitchell's persistent jibes at the Navy were especially nasty, and... spurred the Navy to greater efforts in developing carrier-based aviation -- the precise opposite of what Mitchell intended."

See http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/mitch.html for the whole thing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

...Why is the Air Force wanting to go back to an Army uniform to begin with? The existing uniform speaks to the desire to be separate from the Army... which was the idea, going back to Mitchell...

History brother.  Also, you may want to get your information on Mitchell from a better source than Wikipedia. 

He fought for the inclusion of air power as an Army asset, with Air Branch Officers in control of it. 

The movie about the Mitchell Court Martial is wonderfully done, but is not historically "right on", either. 

Uh, I didn't need Wikipedia. I have him hanging on my wall, beside Amelia, Ira and Chuck. As if that wasn't enough...

"To carry out effectively this mission of strategic attack, (Mitchell) argued that it was necessary to separate aviation from the Army and Navy because they were too traditional and surface oriented. Mitchell's persistent jibes at the Navy were especially nasty, and... spurred the Navy to greater efforts in developing carrier-based aviation -- the precise opposite of what Mitchell intended."

See http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/mitch.html for the whole thing.

You are right, Buckeye.

Mitchell's plan was to have an Air Force in command of ALL air operations, including what we now consider Army assets over the battlefield, Navy fleet air operations, and Marine assets in support of Marine operations.  If Mitchell's plan were accepted, everything that flew would have been Air Force.

[Major Carrales]

I don't think a sepration of the Air Assets from traditional military science carries over into uniform wear.  Here, again, we see this same "over" sensativity with uniforms.

Since the USAF was born of the US Army, it is fitting and proper that many traditions, including uniform tradition, make its way into the 1947 USAF.  All that took place, basically, in the beginning was to exchange brown shoes and ties for blue ones, change out buttons and slowly design a new uniform.

The Transition era sort of reminds me of the same era's railroad transition from steam to diesel locomotives. Lots of stuff existed side by side.  All sorts of hybrids.

Do you all realize that during the tranistion era, there were folks in Pink-and-greens, silvertans, army khakis with USAF rank.  Belted coats, ike jackets(of varying colors) and brush jackets.

To this day it remains an intereting subject recently made more visual by the new Heritage coats.

Air forces of other nations, namely Great Britian and the Commonwealth, had their origin in NAVAL traditions.  Thus, they retain traditions of their Naval legacy, incluidng uniforms.

McPeak crossed an unwritten line in brining Naval type rank to the USAF service coat.  Its not so much a "Hatred" of the Navy thing as it is a departure from traditional origin.  Much like if the US suddenly started patterning its uniforms on some radical change...like the Bundeswehr luftwaffe or on the uniforms of Asian nations.  Not bad looking uniforms, however, they would have no tradition in US military appratus.  The 19th century saw Americans taking on the styles of Imperial armies, but that is not a trend looked on favorably today.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

McPeak crossed an unwritten line in brining Naval type rank to the USAF service coat.  Its not so much a "Hatred" of the Navy thing as it is a departure from traditional origin. 

Very true. But the McPeak uniform wasn't totally without precedent. The spin he put on it was the sleeve rank for officers and the removal of the "U.S." lapel insignia -- both of which were reversed, as we well know.

Also: Thank Gen. Fogleman for authorizing CAP to wear the "U.S.", recognizing us in a tacit way as part of the Air Force federal family.

[AlphaSigOU]

Air forces of other nations, namely Great Britian and the Commonwealth, had their origin in NAVAL traditions.  Thus, they retain traditions of their Naval legacy, incluidng uniforms.

Not quite... The RAF originated from the Royal Flying Corps (RFC), which was part of the British Army. When they became a separate organization in the 1920s, they adopted sleeve rank similar to the Royal Navy and unique rank titles to distinguish themselves from the grunts and the jack tars.

The WWII Luftwaffe had unique uniforms, but the rank insignia was the same as the army's. When the West German Bundesluftwaffe and the East German Luftstreitkräfte unified in the 1990s, the quirky former Soviet Union rank of senior captain was added to the officer ranks.

[Timbo]

Is it me or does every topic here at CAPTALK eventually drop something about the Nazi's or the German military??

Anyway...... McPeak was foolish.  To do away with hundreds of years of tradition in a single swipe of his pen was the biggest mistake he ever made, and he will always be remembered for that, no matter if his other actions benefited the Air Force or not.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

McPeak was foolish.  To do away with hundreds of years of tradition in a single swipe of his pen was the biggest mistake he ever made, and he will always be remembered for that, no matter if his other actions benefited the Air Force or not.

Disagree.

McPeak believed it was time for the Air Force to define itself as a separate, modern service. The idea was the "plain blue suit" that was envisioned from the start, but never really brought to life, except in that white uniform above and in the 1992-current uniform. McPeak brought the "plain blue suit" to its logical end, informed by the Army's late-1940s designs for uniforms for a soon-to-be-separate Air Force.

He didn't "do away with hundreds of years of tradition." And when the uniform was rolled out, it had the U.S., it had the ribbons, the wings, the braid, the epaulets for officers. There's still a hat or two. They still salute when wearing it and address each other according to long-standing military tradition. The rank and grade structure still exists.

As an aside, do you really think the wide lapels and belt of the "Hap Arnold" coat say "modern warfighting force," or rather, "identity crisis" or "air army"?

I have no problem with the uniform. In fact, I think it's great, as long as insignia wear is reined in so no one looks like a Mexican general or a JROTC cadet.

If it were up to me to make any changes, I'd do one thing -- take the nameplate back off the coat. OK, also maybe limit the badges worn on the wearer's right.

This link is of interest -- an Air Force Times poll says a majority wants to leave the uniform as-is:

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/05/airforce_dressuniform_070527/

[JohnKachenmeister]

The US Army, until recently, had a "Tropical white uniform" for duty in places like the Canal Zone and the Philippines.

I guess since we don't have troops there anymore, the tropical white seems a little silly.  The AF probably developed the white as an equivalent uniform to the Army white.

I don't know if the Germans had a tropical white uniform or not.  I never saw any Germans in either the Canal Zone or in the Philippines.  Saw a couple in Alabama, though, on a hot summer night.  They were in civvies, though.

[Hawk200]

He didn't "do away with hundreds of years of tradition."

In a way he did, although I don't think in the way that was said. Except for the Navy, most branches had a four pocket design based on the "battle coat" design. Shelby Stanton's books on Army uniforms give a little more history on the evolution of the Army dress uniform, and on the original "battle coat".

And when the uniform was rolled out, it had the U.S., it had the ribbons, the wings, the braid, the epaulets for officers.

As someone who was active duty Air Force at the time that uniform was rolled out, I can tell you for a fact that the uniform did not have all those things. McPeak introduced a coat with rank insignia, ribbons, and a badge for most people (two badges allowed over ribbons if you were aircrew). Yes, McPeak is also wearing a Joint Chief's badge, but most people didn't have that or similar type of badge to wear.

On the flag ranks site, this page has a pic of McPeak wearing his uniform design (Fig 17 on that page): http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_coat_uniform.html

Fogleman eliminated the lower sleeve rank, added epaulets, allowed an additional badge for non-aircrew, and returned the "US" insignia to the uniform. In that manner, it has a similar  style and cut to the one in the first post. Whether Fogleman unknowingly made it similar, or he actually looked up the old style is uknown.

Personally, I like the design shown here. It just looks more military for some reason. The basic McPeak uniform lacks a uniquely military appearance.

And, Major Carrales, these historical uniforms posts are interesting. They let us look at some of our current mother branches' history, an appreciation of which, lately, is sorely lacking. Keep 'em coming.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

He didn't "do away with hundreds of years of tradition."

In a way he did, although I don't think in the way that was said. Except for the Navy, most branches had a four pocket design based on the "battle coat" design. Shelby Stanton's books on Army uniforms give a little more history on the evolution of the Army dress uniform, and on the original "battle coat".

And when the uniform was rolled out, it had the U.S., it had the ribbons, the wings, the braid, the epaulets for officers.

As someone who was active duty Air Force at the time that uniform was rolled out, I can tell you for a fact that the uniform did not have all those things. McPeak introduced a coat with rank insignia, ribbons, and a badge for most people (two badges allowed over ribbons if you were aircrew). Yes, McPeak is also wearing a Joint Chief's badge, but most people didn't have that or similar type of badge to wear.

On the flag ranks site, this page has a pic of McPeak wearing his uniform design (Fig 17 on that page): http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_coat_uniform.html

Fogleman eliminated the lower sleeve rank, added epaulets, allowed an additional badge for non-aircrew, and returned the "US" insignia to the uniform. In that manner, it has a similar  style and cut to the one in the first post. Whether Fogleman unknowingly made it similar, or he actually looked up the old style is uknown.

Personally, I like the design shown here. It just looks more military for some reason. The basic McPeak uniform lacks a uniquely military appearance.

The uniform didn't roll out to the field until all those changes were made -- that's what I meant.

The only differences I see between the coat on this page and our uniform are that there's another button and the welt pocket sits a little higher.

[Hawk200]

The uniform didn't roll out to the field until all those changes were made -- that's what I meant.

If you mean that it didn't roll out until it had epaulets, "US" insignia, and allowed more than a single badge for other than aircrew, that would be incorrect. I knew many early adopters that wore the uniform as McPeak presented it, but it was in the field that way. It was less than a year, McPeak retired, and when Fogleman came in, he asked the rank and file what they wanted. The uniform as it is now is not how it was originally adopted.

The only differences I see between the coat on this page and our uniform are that there's another button and the welt pocket sits a little higher.

True, but I think the one above looks better. Maybe it's just the additional button.

[AlphaSigOU]

The US Army, until recently, had a "Tropical white uniform" for duty in places like the Canal Zone and the Philippines.

I guess since we don't have troops there anymore, the tropical white seems a little silly.  The AF probably developed the white as an equivalent uniform to the Army white.

I don't know if the Germans had a tropical white uniform or not.  I never saw any Germans in either the Canal Zone or in the Philippines.  Saw a couple in Alabama, though, on a hot summer night.  They were in civvies, though.

(thumbing through my book on Luftwaffe uniforms...) Yep, they sure did. Actually all they wore (officers only) was the white jacket and blue trousers in summer months and sometimes a white service cap cover.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The US Army, until recently, had a "Tropical white uniform" for duty in places like the Canal Zone and the Philippines.

I guess since we don't have troops there anymore, the tropical white seems a little silly.  The AF probably developed the white as an equivalent uniform to the Army white.

I don't know if the Germans had a tropical white uniform or not.  I never saw any Germans in either the Canal Zone or in the Philippines.  Saw a couple in Alabama, though, on a hot summer night.  They were in civvies, though.

(thumbing through my book on Luftwaffe uniforms...) Yep, they sure did. Actually all they wore (officers only) was the white jacket and blue trousers in summer months and sometimes a white service cap cover.

Interesting, Chuck.

In the German Navy, the white service cap was reserved for commanders of vessels.  Did the same rule hold fast in the Luftwaffe, white service cap for commanders?

[AlphaSigOU]

The US Army, until recently, had a "Tropical white uniform" for duty in places like the Canal Zone and the Philippines.

I guess since we don't have troops there anymore, the tropical white seems a little silly.  The AF probably developed the white as an equivalent uniform to the Army white.

I don't know if the Germans had a tropical white uniform or not.  I never saw any Germans in either the Canal Zone or in the Philippines.  Saw a couple in Alabama, though, on a hot summer night.  They were in civvies, though.

(thumbing through my book on Luftwaffe uniforms...) Yep, they sure did. Actually all they wore (officers only) was the white jacket and blue trousers in summer months and sometimes a white service cap cover.

Interesting, Chuck.

In the German Navy, the white service cap was reserved for commanders of vessels.  Did the same rule hold fast in the Luftwaffe, white service cap for commanders?

The white cap cover was for officers only; no distinction for command as in the Kriegsmarine.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Danke, Herr Hauptmann!

I just saw "Valkyrie," (good flick, BTW, but shallow in its treatment of the German Resistance) and it scared me that I actually recognized most of the German insignia. 

I'm pretty sure that the badge worn by the major in command of the Berlin battalion of the Reserve Army, who arrested Klaus von S., was a Stuka pilot badge. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Wieder Danke,

Oberst Kachenmeister

[MIKE]

Johnston's Law says this thread is done.