Vanguard and Curry Voucher Program

[Ned]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

The AAFES/member interface is important, and something that has been a high priority for many years.

Bear with me for a second, but the primary problem is a legal one, with no easy fix.

Even for the DoD, this is the era of Big Data.  Most of the electronic systems designed to assure both physical and electronic data security have been enlarged and merged.  For example, the Defense Enrollment Eligibility System (DEERS) started out as a modest medical database for service members in the early 1980s, but has grown into a massive system covering DoD service members, dependents, retirees, contractors, and a few others who are entitled to public key infrastructure stuff and things like Tricare, etc.

DEERS in turn feeds the Real Time Automated Personnel Identification System (RAPIDS - used for giving out CAC and DoD ID cards) and the Defense Biometric Identification Data System (DBIDS - used to determine base access and other privileges).  DEERS is also used to control access to the on-line AAFES web sites.

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

And getting the DoD and/or Congress to modify the DEERS system to allow CAP access is a pretty big deal.  Especially when our AF colleagues, when asked, would say "CAP is clearly authorized AAFES access for uniforms, and even though there are occasional difficulties with access to particular bases, usually CAP members can secure access after coordinating with a Liaison Region."

So we have not been able to get much traction on DEERS eligibility.  Since it controls access to benefits as well as basis, DEERS is guarded pretty carefully by DoD and they are extremely reluctant to even discuss any changes to their secure systems.

And the on-line AAFES access issues are directly related.  Their entire back end is tied to DEERS.  There is simply no way to create some sort of "duplicate" or "parallel system" to allow CAP members access to on-line uniforms without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Because it has to be tied to their existing ordering and fulfillment systems.  There are a lot of moving parts that would have to be changed to accommodate us, and no resources to make those changes.

I want to point out again how supportive our AF colleagues are in this regard.  The CAP-USAF folks are unwavering in their support of CAP, but there is only so much they can do.   This is not so much of an "AF issue," as it is a DoD and AAFEES issue.

We continue to engage with CAP-USAF on the issue, but I don't see much change in the immediate future on getting CAP members enrolled in DEERS, nor does there appear to be a feasible work-around.

So we will continue to address local base access issues to allow members to obtain uniforms at the best possible price, and work with VG to provide options for other members.

Essentially all of our cadets -- and seniors who wish to wear the AF-style uniforms -- are able to get them today.  It is not as easy nor as cheap as I would like, but at least we can meet our requirements and conduct our missions.

[Holding Pattern]

Thank you for the in-depth explanation.

Can you clarify which laws exclude CAP from access to these systems?

[lordmonar]

[darn] you Ned for being reasonable, logical and forthcoming......you have destroyed another perfectly good conspiracy theory and rant about "Them" and how they are out to get us!

Now what are going to talk about on CapTalk?!

[LegacyAirman]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

How are contractors authorized inclusion in DEERS?

[Holding Pattern]

I think the answer is to raise all CAP membership fees by $10/year to fund CAPNHQ sending everyone a 1099 each year with their pay on it (read, $0.)

Secondarily, tell us what laws need to be changed and we can kick that up the congressional lines.

[lordmonar]

Ned, is this in work, or even on the radar (web/phone AAFES ordering), either with voucher or without?

And, by law, CAP members are simply not authorized for inclusion in the DEERS system (unless an individual is  also a retiree, contractor, etc.).  And it is not as simple as saying "well, let's just put CAP members in there.  They're kinda like contractors, right?".   Because we are not employees of a contractor, nor do we fit in any of the currently authorized categories. 

How are contractors authorized inclusion in DEERS?

Some contracts allow access to AAFES, Base Hospitals, Commissary, and other services.   So there is a provision to enter contractors into the DEERS.

Thing geographically separated duty locations and overseas locations

[LegacyAirman]

How does the Coast Guard Auxiliary get their uniforms?

[JC004]

How does the Coast Guard Auxiliary get their uniforms?

USCG Uniform Distribution Center.  They also have authorized suppliers for their insignia (a number of them). 

[CAPDCCMOM]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

At the prices a month or so ago, it was a difference of about $50 to the cadet. Nothing to ignore, but not nearly a disaster either. I'm not sure how we'd look elitist, when school activities and other extracurricular activities costs thousands a year.

[Ned]

Ned,

I understand the reasoning behind the Voucher a little bit better now. However, I still hold with my fear that Vanguard's prices and the difficulty in finding good used uniform items will make it more difficult to recruit and retain Cadets. The $100 voucher does not go very far at Vanguards present price structure. I am afraid that the increased costs to parents will cost us in diversity. We have Squadrons all over the Nation, I am sure, that are having difficulties kitting out cadets. We don't want to be seen in the public eye as being elitist. I mean do disrespect. Just an observation and concern.

Oh, we fully understand that. and we are also very concerned about the affordability of our program. 

And I completely agree that it implicates diversity.

Even in wealthier areas, it is not uncommon for a family to have several siblings in the program and things like uniforms, dues, and encampment fees add up so quickly.  We get that.  We really, really do.

We constantly are looking for ways to reduce the burden on families, and welcome all ideas that might help.

Although implemented inefficiently, the FCU program was actually a huge step forward in making CP affordable.  Remember, for most of our history, we didn't even have that.  And now we think the CVP will help even more cadets and encourage them to remain in the program.

(I don't want to distract from this thread, but watch for an important announcement in the next few weeks that will help with encampment costs for some of our cadets.)

But without new resources, I can't imagine what we can significantly change.

Until you or I can think of something else, in the meantime parents can:

1.  Rely on local squadron resources for uniforms.  (Some units can help, some cannot.)
2.  Shop for inexpensive gently used uniforms (surplus stores, eBay, etc.)
3.  Shop the cheapest source for new uniforms- AF Clothing Sales if you are close enough to an AFB
4.  Shop on-line at VG or other vendors.  VG is obligated to have all CAP uniforms and supplies; other vendors may have uniforms but cannot sell CAP-distinctive items like insignia or patches.

And feel free to post here the cheapest sources you can find.  Other parents may well benefit.

[JC004]

These things do add up:

[THRAWN]

These things do add up:

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Blues belt! Don't forget the belt!

[JC004]

My bad.  I did this in the fall and there have been price increases on most everything since then.  The increases are as follows:

Boots: $7.20
Socks: $0.55
Shoes: $3.20
Nameplate: $0.30
Nametape: $0.30
CAP tape: $0.15
Flight Cap Device: $0.50
C/Amn chevrons: $0.50
Ribbon Holder: $0.15
Curry Ribbon: $0.10
Boot Socks: $0.70
BDU cap: $0.70
BDU - Pants: $2.55
BDU - Shirt: $2.55
BDU - Black T-Shirt: (70 cents decrease)
BDU Belt: $0.70
Wing Patch: $0.15
FOR A TOTAL OF: $19.60 in increases since the fall

UPDATED TOTAL FOR NEW CADETS:

Blues belt! Don't forget the belt!

That's in the costs over the voucher.

[CAPDCCMOM]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment. 

[lordmonar]

Then make sure to add the cost of Encampment to that list.

Also you forgot about squadron dues....most units have those too.

But yes......Joining CAP is going to cost around $600 the first year....if you do everything we want you to do.

The FCU vs the CVP.....is reliability and speed vs cost.   CVP means getting your stuff in 1-2 weeks...vice 8-10 weeks.

[JC004]

What about the flight cap?

I was thinking about doing a list that would include first year as a cadet, or one for bare minimum cost to Mitchell. 

I have separate lists for UDF kit, GTM kit, and new senior members (corporate and AF style mandatory basic uniforms, separately). 

I was working on using the UDF/GT lists to identify what items the unit can get in bulk to reduce member costs (like buying a large box of adhesive bandages so members don't need to buy a box just to get a few).  Those purchases of a whole box of something, just to get a few items for the kit adds up, and they nickel and dime members to death.

[THRAWN]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment.

Until the regulations change or say otherwise, BDUs are not required. Check the language in CAPM39-1, 1.2.1...

[JeffDG]

FOR A TOTAL OF: $19.60 in increases since the fall

So, approximately 6% (a hair less).  Without some evidence that the old prices had just gone up to that, they could have been the same for a couple years before that and you just happened to pull numbers on either side of a normal price change, 6% is not "price gouging".