USAF Unit Citations awarded to CAP?

[Eclipse]

Air Force Civilian Awards continue to be awarded to CAP members.  Just because you may not know of any in your area doesn't mean it's not happening.

Cite please.

(Plus, that's not what we are discussing).

[flyboy53]

Not quite true......but no CAP does not get USAF Unit Citations.

True.

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

Guess it pays to be in the right place, at the right time and impress someone.

Also, given the nature of the Air Force organizational structure, the award that would most likely be presented would be the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award (for an un-numbered unit) and it would most likely go to CAP-USAF and the liaison structure. Years ago, I read in one of the prop and triangle historical papers that CAP had been awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for its service, but the real recipient were those Army Air Force personnel that made up the CAP headquarters. I can't cite the reference because I tried to google that issue on-line and it was subsequently deleted.

However, if CAP-USAF earned the AFOEA, it would be up to the commander to do a letter/order extending its eligibility to the rest of us.

[Ground_pounder82]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition. 

[lordmonar]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

First......I am a charter member of the GFW program.  I wrote 90% of the Sensor Operator SQTR.
Second.....I am not advocating that we be eligible for AF awards....if you actually read my posts you will see where I said that. 

Thank you for your service.

[Eclipse]

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

So she was in the Air force at the time?

FWIW, an Air Force General has no authority to be signing CAP 120's, and no one in your paragraph had the authority to allow here to wear the dec on a CAP uniform.

[Shuman 14]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

But what about "due" recognition? Maybe you have not seen a mission deserving of that level of recognition, others here may have.

If someone puts me in for an award, regardless of if "I" believe I am worthy of it, I say thank you and gracefully accept it.

So if some Air Force Commander thought that the CAP, or a unit there of, was deserving of a USAF unit citation, don't question it, be gracious and accept it the spirit it was presented.

[flyboy53]

However, my wife earned one but not through the traditional direct method. She was given authority to wear the ribbon because she was a CAP member twice formally attached to the 439th Military Airlift Wing headquarters when that wing earned one during Desert Storm. She did some PA stuff -- being part of the development of some PSAs and working with the wing's 50th anniversary event. The wing commander, a brigadier general, even signed her CAP Form 120 Commander's Commendation recommendation.

So she was in the Air force at the time?

FWIW, an Air Force General has no authority to be signing CAP 120's, and no one in your paragraph had the authority to allow here to wear the dec on a CAP uniform.

No, as I said she was a CAP officer formally attached to the wing. Doesn't matter. She got the authorization and that's all that counts.

And as far as the Commander's Commendation, the general signed the nomination -- you know the part on the back of the form with the justification. The other appropriate commanders approved it to wing level and it was awarded.

Funny, none of those commanders even questioned an Air Force Reserve General's signature and no one questions the authorization that's in her records now.

[RiverAux]

CAP members are not "formally" attached to AF units.  A very small number of CAP members may and do provide assistance to AF units in various fashions, but they are not "formally" attached.  That implies a degree of integration between the AF and CAP that does not exist. 

[flyboy53]

"I don't see it happening....as 99.999% of CAP personnel don't work that closely with USAF personnel and don't directly affect their missions"

First - Obviously you have never flown a Keynote or Green Flag, as those directly affect operational combat training for Active AF, Guard and Reserve forces and even the Army.

Second- If you want a AF unit award you should have joined the AF.  I dont know about anyone else, but I did not join CAP to earn bogus ribbons or pretend to still be in the AF, I joined because I liked to fly and help people who need it.  I have a couple unit citations and they mean nothing to me, since all I had to do is maintain a heart beat and 98.6.  I see alot of people post asnine queations about wanting military awards for volunteer service. CAP does perform valuable missions for the the AF and this country, do ruin that by requesting undue recognition.

Perhaps the thing to do here is present the idea through channels and see if the Air Force would allow awarding certain decorations with the appropriate justification -- or see if CAP-USAF would consider including the CAP side the next time a submission is made for an AFOUA or AFOEA.

You know AF awards are generally authorized for the ANG, but in many instances, a National Guardsman will be put in for the appropriate state decoration before the Air Force one, and you rarely see anything higher than a Commendation Medal being awarded.

But what about "due" recognition? Maybe you have not seen a mission deserving of that level of recognition, others here may have.

If someone puts me in for an award, regardless of if "I" believe I am worthy of it, I say thank you and gracefully accept it.

So if some Air Force Commander thought that the CAP, or a unit there of, was deserving of a USAF unit citation, don't question it, be gracious and accept it the spirit it was presented.

[Eclipse]

Funny, none of those commanders even questioned an Air Force Reserve General's signature and no one questions the authorization that's in her records now.

Very typical of CAP "looks / sounds cool, let's do it." 

Doesn't make it right.

As far as "due recognition", we have our own awards for our own service.  If it qualifies, then CAP staff and commanders should
submit those, not some award from another service we can't even wear.

[Ground_pounder82]

Lordmonar, copy, I was just putting all my thoughts into one post.  I could tell you were not exactly for it either.  I appreciate your dedication to that mission.  I have flown many Green Flags as out of Nellis and out of Barksdale, and have heard nothing but good things when talking about CAP support to that mission.  I would say that among the AF flyers, the myth that CAP was a bunch of old fogies sitting around waiting for things to happen has been dispelled.

Again, as far as this post is concerned, if your worth is measured by wanting to wear awards  such as the AFMUA, AFOUA then whatever, keep wishing the AF wont do it.  And I believe Eclipse said it and I completely agree but CAP has its own awards. If you are in need of awards, just be proud of the CAP awards you earn.  I dont know any Marines wishing they could get to wear a AFMUA because they worked with a AF unit that was awarded it.  The Marines have their own, and they a proud to wear them.  Maybe this is far fetched example. 

[Shuman 14]

Lordmonar, copy, I was just putting all my thoughts into one post.  I could tell you were not exactly for it either.  I appreciate your dedication to that mission.  I have flown many Green Flags as out of Nellis and out of Barksdale, and have heard nothing but good things when talking about CAP support to that mission.  I would say that among the AF flyers, the myth that CAP was a bunch of old fogies sitting around waiting for things to happen has been dispelled.

Again, as far as this post is concerned, if your worth is measured by wanting to wear awards  such as the AFMUA, AFOUA then whatever, keep wishing the AF wont do it.  And I believe Eclipse said it and I completely agree but CAP has its own awards. If you are in need of awards, just be proud of the CAP awards you earn.  I don't know any Marines wishing they could get to wear a AFMUA because they worked with a AF unit that was awarded it.  The Marines have their own, and they a proud to wear them.  Maybe this is far fetched example.

A little, it's not an uncommon practice for one Service to award unit citations to other Services nor is it uncommon for individual awards to be presented. With all the inter-Service interaction outside of formal Joint Commands in theater, it is in fact common now for that to happen.

So, if an Army Commander wished to award a Sailor a Commendation Medal for duty he/she did in support of an Army unit, he would send the recommendation for an Army Commendation Medal up thru the Army chain, NOT a recommendation for a Naval Commendation Medal thru the Navy chain.

So in context of this discussion, yes CAP has its own awards, but if an OUTSIDE agency, which in this context the USAF is, wished to present a unit award or an individual award, it can and should do so as they, the outside agency, deem it appropriate and proper for "due recognition" from within its own channels and chains of command. 

[lordmonar]

I agree.

The USAF could award USAF medals to just about anyone they wanted....they control the award thereof.....they just don't.

And in my AD time I know a lot of people who earned ARCOM and ARACHEV and a bunch of Army types who earned AFCM and AFAMs for their cross service support.

And no....JSAM, JSCM, and JDSM were not appropriate as they are only for people working in "JOINT" service billets or units.

[Shuman 14]

ARACHEV

Just FYI, we call them AAMs in the Army.

[SpookyDude]

Personally I think the process for determining what type of award (if any) a person should get stems directly from the person's duty position and what actually occurred - cases in point:

1. You are performing CAP corporation duties as a CAP member, you should get a CAP corporate award.
2. You are preforming CAP AFAM duties as a CAP member, and your mission chain of command is all CAP, you should get a CAP award.
3. same as #2 above, but you're under the joint command of an operational AF unit, then you could get either a CAP award, or an AF award for non-employee Civilian Service.
4. same as #3 above, except the unit you're under is Army, Navy, DOHS, CIA, FBI, or whatever, you could get either a CAP award or a suitable award from that other service for non-employee Civilian Service.

The big caveat is that you can't earn both an outside award and a CAP award for the same service. It's one or the other. And then you'd only be able to wear the outside agency award if the AF allows you to wear it on the AF uniform - and then you could only wear it on AF-Style, not CAP distinctive.

Make sense? 

Edit Note: The are lots of "other agency" awards that can be worn on the AF uniform that civilians and CAP members can earn - the highest award I believe is the Presidential Medal of Freedom with Distinction.

[lordmonar]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

[Private Investigator]

Make sense? 

NO   

[Shuman 14]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

[lordmonar]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

True....but I have yet to see any CAP unit.....with maybe the exception of the Green Flag Group and it daughter squadrons.....do anything even close to rate a USAF AFOUA or a  AFOEA.

So....what's the point.

[Shuman 14]

Since #3 and #4 NEVER happen......we are where we are today.

CAP is always CAP.....even when we are directly support and Air Force Mission (ala Green Flag).

And the Army is always the Army... yet it has received numerous USAF unit citations. 

True....but I have yet to see any CAP unit.....with maybe the exception of the Green Flag Group and it daughter squadrons.....do anything even close to rate a USAF AFOUA or a  AFOEA.

So....what's the point.

I submit you that you just admitted that there are units within CAP that have performed at levels that could be recognized by a USAF unit citation... that's the point.