A "What If?" kind of question

[flyboy53]

Equivalent, how:

Source: DoD Manual 1348.33, Vol. 1 November 23, 2010:

8. MEDAL OF HONOR
a. Introduction. The MOH is the highest and most prestigious U.S. military medal. It is awarded by the President of the United States in the name of Congress. Authority to award the MOH is contained in sections 3741, 6241, and 8741 of Reference (j).
b. Award Category. Personal Performance Award.
c. Eligibility Requirements
(1) Eligibility Criteria
(a) In accordance with sections 3741, 6241, and 8741 of Reference (j), the MOH may be awarded to members of the U.S. Armed Forces who distinguish themselves conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of their lives above and beyond the call of duty under any of the following circumstances:
1. While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States.
2. While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force.
3. While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
(b) The deed performed must have been one of personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the individual above his or her comrades and must have involved risk of life.
(c) Proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the Service member performed the valorous action for which they were recommended for the MOH.
(d) While MOH criteria include a requirement for the Service member to risk his or her life, there is NO requirement for the member to be wounded or killed in order to meet the “risk of life” portion of the MOH award criteria.

And From the CAP Knowledgebase: CAPR 39-3, Paragraph 9:

iteria for award of the Silver Medal of Valor and Bronze Medal of Valor involve heroic action at risk of life or safety and are covered in Paragraph 9 of  CAPR 39-3 AWARD OF CAP MEDALS, RIBBONS, AND CERTIFICATES 22 FEBRUARY 2010 CORRECTED COPY

9. Criteria for Awarding Decorations. The following is the minimum criteria established for the consideration of acts or service for CAP decorations.

a. Silver Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action, at the risk of life, above and beyond the call of normal duty.

b. Bronze Medal of Valor. Distinguished and conspicuous heroic action where danger to self is probable and known. (NOTE: In cases where a member is credited with saving a human life, but where the act does not meet the criteria for the Silver or Bronze Medal of Valor, the member should be recommended for a Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving see Paragraph 9h.)

And for the record, the definition of equivalent:

e·quiv·a·lent adjective /iˈkwivələnt/ 


1.Equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc
- one unit is equivalent to one glass of wine


2.Having the same or a similar effect as
- some regulations are equivalent to censorship


3.Belonging to the same equivalence class.

Perhaps the solution is for one of you fine people to design an appropriate medal to the same valor criteria as the MOH and then let's see if we can get the President to award it in the name of Congress.....that will be a good trick.

[RiverAux]

No one said the criteria were the same, just that the awards had equivalent places in the hierarchy of awards for their respective organizations. 

Sort of like saying that the President of the United States is equivalent to the President (or whatever) of Fiji.  They are both heads of state, but other than that, aren't equal. 

I don't see how this is such a difficult concept to understand. 

[ol'fido]

There's enough hair splitting in this one to send a crate to Locks Of Love. Hold on to your hats, Folks!

[titanII]

Tick Tock Tick Tock- it's the Lock clock

[Eclipse]

No one said the criteria were the same, just that the awards had equivalent places in the hierarchy of awards for their respective organizations. 

Sort of like saying that the President of the United States is equivalent to the President (or whatever) of Fiji.  They are both heads of state, but other than that, aren't equal. 

I don't see how this is such a difficult concept to understand.

OK, to this point, then, while the MOH and SMV may be the top decoration for the respective organizations, placing the organizations on the same level is
presumptuous and self-aggrandizing.

CAP service worthy of an SMV is no more equal to military service worthy of an MOH, than the status and prestige of an award from the President of the United States is equal to one from the President of Fiji.  Just because it's the top dec of the organization, does not mean they have the same relative value.

The idea smacks of a "Me-too" attempt to garner favorable light on CAP through a tenuous connection to the member's receipt of the MOH.

The only way they could possibly be connected, IMHO, would be if through some bizarre coincidence the member performed a MOH-level act of valor
while on military duty with CAP, perhaps a CAP-RAP who takes down plane #5 on 9/11 with a CAP Cessna (Dale? I get a piece of that book) or something equally unlikely.

Otherwise shake his hand, invite him to speak and tell his tale, and leave him to have already received the highest award he possibly can.

[RiverAux]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

If you can't accept the plain statement of fact that the SMOV and MoH are equivalent in status WITHIN the organization that awards them, there isn't much more that I'm going to be able to say.   

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts. 

[Eclipse]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

After a re-read I saw we mostly agreed.

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts.

There's a difference between comparing similar paramilitary structures with convergent histories and comparing the actual service and mission of those organizations.

[flyboy53]

I think you forgot that I did not endorse giving the SMOV out to someone with the MoH and I'm not sure that anyone here actually has.   And I have already said that these awards are in no way similar in prestige.  So don't try sticking me with that.

After a re-read I saw we mostly agreed.

And if we can no longer compare CAP to the military I think you may have to re-think hundreds of your posts.

There's a difference between comparing similar paramilitary structures with convergent histories and comparing the actual service and mission of those organizations.

Also the issue isn't that the two decorations are equivalent when they aren't. The proper term is to refer to the two medals as the highest decorations of their respective services or organizations.

I was in no way trying to diminish one over the other, I was trying to point out to my learned colleagues of this forum that presenting a SMOV for the actions leading to a MOH in another arena would diminish the Civil Air Patrol decoration as the lesser of the two awards when they should stand alone on their own merit.

Clearly, instead of all the hair splitting, I think what is made apparent through this very good discussion is that there needs to be a standard on what recognition would be appropriate in such situations. If the SMOV is all that is available, fine, but there needs to be something of greater prestige.

When Sgt. Alvin York was cited for his actions in World War I, he received the Distinguished Service Cross and the French Croix de Guerre first and then the MOH afterward. At some point he also receives the French Legion of Honour and 50 other decorations. Sgt. York was also an Honorary Signal Corps Colonel and a colonel in the Tennessee State Guard. I think we can do better that just awarding a SMOV, don't you?

Some time ago one of you posted images of a SMOV as a neck decoration. Why hasn't someone considered recommending that as a higher award to the NHQ folks, but using a new pendant instead. This CAP decoration would then have the status of the highest decoration we can award and with criteria similar to the MOH.

I've read some of the stories behind a few of the SMOVs. Those actions are simply amazing heroics, but they stand on their own and are a testament of the dedication and sacrifice of CAP volunteers. The same goes for those WW II recipients of Ar Medals, but a MOH stands alone. You salute the decoration even when you are senior to the person wearing it. That same prestige doesn't exist with a SMOV. Perhaps it should.

[Hawk200]

CAP service worthy of an SMV is no more equal to military service worthy of an MOH, than the status and prestige of an award from the President of the United States is equal to one from the President of Fiji.  Just because it's the top dec of the organization, does not mean they have the same relative value.

The idea smacks of a "Me-too" attempt to garner favorable light on CAP through a tenuous connection to the member's receipt of the MOH.

This is what I've been thinking. The word "equivalent" was innappropriately used (and inappropriate use does matter, it creates problems).

Also the issue isn't that the two decorations are equivalent when they aren't. The proper term is to refer to the two medals as the highest decorations of their respective services or organizations.

And this is what I was trying to say. I guess I just didn't say it right.

We need to be very careful in what we say, and how it is said. We cannot afford misunderstandings.