A "What If?" kind of question

[ColonelJack]

For some reason, this thought began fluttering through my mind this morning (it had plenty of room to do so) and I wanted to ask my CAPTalk friends to join me in the speculation:

Let us speculate that there is a CAP member who is also an AD soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine.  Let's also speculate that this individual is deployed to one of the war zones currently found in the Middle East.

Now ... let us say that this individual performs an act of extreme heroism which results in being awarded the Medal of Honor (and survives to receive the award).  His/her squadron CC back in the States gets word of what happened.  Is the squadron CC allowed to put the member in for a Silver Medal of Valor for the same event?

Not that I've ever heard of such ... I'm just asking. 

Thanks ...

Jack

[cap235629]

probably but really, why on earth would they want to?

[Eclipse]

They can submit him for anything.

With that said, the SMV is a lesser award and I would say it would be inappropriate.

Leave CAP awards for CAP service.

[lordmonar]

Yes.

CAP and their awards are for us to honor our members.....even if they have been honored and/or compensated by other agencies.

The only line I would draw...is that if the occupation is such that the act is considered part of their job.

I.e.  A Cadet who sees someone drowning and rescues them should be put in for a life saving ribbon.  However, if that same cadet were employed as a life guard and saves someone while on the job.....I would look at a letter or commednation or certficiate of some instead.

Having said that......if the lifeguard went way above and beyond the call of duty to perform that rescue.....then I would consider a BMOV of SMOV as the case may be....in addition to the lifesaving ribbon.

For AD military....it would have to be considered withing the context of the job when the performed the act.  A PJ or Rescue Swimmer would be held to a higher standard then the Admin Clerk or Fitness Center Technican.

YMMV

[titanII]

the SMV is a lesser award and I would say it would be inappropriate.

That's basically what I was gonna say in a nutshell. The person has already received the Medal of Honor. There aren't too many awards he can get that would top that. In fact, I can't think of any off the top of my head. A congratulations and round of applause would be the best and most appropriate thing the MOH recipient could get from his unit.

[cap235629]

Yes.

CAP and their awards are for us to honor our members.....even if they have been honored and/or compensated by other agencies.

The only line I would draw...is that if the occupation is such that the act is considered part of their job.

I.e.  A Cadet who sees someone drowning and rescues them should be put in for a life saving ribbon.  However, if that same cadet were employed as a life guard and saves someone while on the job.....I would look at a letter or commednation or certficiate of some instead.

Having said that......if the lifeguard went way above and beyond the call of duty to perform that rescue.....then I would consider a BMOV of SMOV as the case may be....in addition to the lifesaving ribbon.

For AD military....it would have to be considered withing the context of the job when the performed the act.  A PJ or Rescue Swimmer would be held to a higher standard then the Admin Clerk or Fitness Center Technican.

YMMV

How on earth can you even put the scenarios above in the same universe with those actions that warrant the award of the Medal of Honor?

The actions that lead to a Medal of Honor are in no way, shape or form "part of the job"

[lordmonar]

It's not....I did not equate the same.

I gave a generic answer to the question.

An AD member receives an award for heroism.....can we award him/her a CAP medal too.

The answer, IMHO, is yes.

I caviated that with we need to bump it up against what their jobs were.

By definition the MOH is above and beyond the call of duty.....ergo.....any CAP member who gets the MOH should be able to get the SMOV too.

Is it a little redundant, redunand?  Maybe....but that's not the point.  CAP should be rewarding its people for all actions that deserve it.

So...I opend the scope of the discussion to show that any member doing any thing on or off CAP time should be rewarded if their actions warrent it.

[titanII]

  CAP should be rewarding its people for all actions that deserve it.

...any member doing any thing on or off CAP time should be rewarded if their actions warrant it.

I don't think that most "good" actions off CAP time warrant CAP awards/ribbons/etc. I think that most CAP awards/ribbons/etc. were created to award members for their "good" actions in service of CAP. Now, there are a few that (I feel) are actually meant for actions off CAP time, like the Community Service Ribbon. But most are meant for actions on CAP time, and (I feel) should be limited to that.

That being said, I'm not in charge here. I can't really decide who gets what award for which action. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree 

[Eclipse]

CAP should be rewarding its people for all CAP actions that deserve it, and let other organizations decorate their people as they see fit.

Fixed that for you, no charge.

Giving a member an SMV for an action that already received an MOH (or any other military decoration for that matter), smacks of CAP either "validating the award" which is unnecessary, or trying to get into the "good on you" club for the same action, or worse, trying to equate the SMV with the MoH, which is a losing argument for everyone involved - different organizations, different missions, different definitions and opportunities for valor.

The member with the MoH is going to walk around with a ribbon that trumps everything else on their uniform and should entitle them to free drinks for life.  What's the point of us adding our jelly bean below (likely way below) that?

We'd be so much better off just staying out of other people's parties and properly honoring our own people, with no connection made between the two.

[lordmonar]

Then we should never ever give a CAP award for anything that was not done on CAP time.

How many SMOV adn BMOV and lifesaving awards do we have to rescend now?

Granted in the context of a real MOH winner....anything we give him will redundant......but from the principle of the thing....if ANY action outside of CAP warrents any recognition.....then we have to logically extend it to the absurd and allow a SMOV to a MOH winner.

Else you can't reward the cadet who uses quick thinking and appropriate skills who saves a life or performs some other service but was NOT on CAP time.

[Eclipse]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

[Hawk200]

Giving a member an SMV for an action that already received an MOH (or any other military decoration for that matter), smacks of CAP either "validating the award" which is unnecessary, or trying to get into the "good on you" club for the same action, or worse, trying to equate the SMV with the MoH, which is a losing argument for everyone involved - different organizations, different missions, different definitions and opportunities for valor.

Agreed. Why is it that some in CAP think that a military award doesn't mean anything until CAP has one? This looks just like the situation where someone wanted to create a CAP astronaut wing for one person. It's pointless.

This idea that CAP needs a badge, ribbon, device, or other googaw for everything any other organization has looks a lot like hubris. And that appearance is not good for us.

[lordmonar]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Like I said....beyond what your opinion on what should be recognised....the precedent is already there.  How many of the 400+ S/BMOV that have been awarded are for thing "outside" of CAP?

Cadet Doogood saves a person's life on his way to the CAP meeting (clearly in the regulations as his own and NOT CAP time).....you just say...."good job" and that it, But Capt Imapilot flies two hours with some blood in a cooler in the back seat and he gets a lifesaving ribbon.

Do you see the disconnect there?

By your standard....if Cadet Doogood gets in trouble at school or with the law.....we equally can't/shouldn't do anything about that?  It has no reflection upon his CAP career?  Before you answer think about how you responded to this issue on all the social media threads.  Make sure that you are being consitant with you standards.

Either CAP stops and starts at the door......in all things.....or it does not.  If my non CAP life affects my CAP career.....why should we not reward CAP members when the do good things.....we certainly hammer members when the screw up in their non-CAP life.

[ol'fido]

If you ask the guy that got the MOH if it would be alright to put them in for the SMOV, they would probably tell you, "thanks for honor but it's really not necessary". So, I would let the MOH stand on it's own merit(which it should).

The RM does give awards for off duty actions. I knew of several soldiers during my AD time that received ARCOMs,etc. for chasing down muggers or helping above and beyond at major accidents while off duty. 

[lordmonar]

Agreed. Why is it that some in CAP think that a military award doesn't mean anything until CAP has one? This looks just like the situation where someone wanted to create a CAP astronaut wing for one person. It's pointless.

This idea that CAP needs a badge, ribbon, device, or other googaw for everything any other organization has looks a lot like hubris. And that appearance is not good for us.

I don't think it was pointless.  It may have been unnecessary....but not pointless.  One can argue that.....yes he has his NASA wings....but he can't wear them on his White and Grays.   One can argue on the point that....maybe we wanted to celebrate one of our own......not that he needed it...but we did. (that is one of the other reasons why we have awards).

Look at people like the Capt Sully Sullenburger.....after his event....he must have gotten rewarded by 10-15 different organisations and people for his actions.   If he were a CAP member I would have expected that he too would have gotten at least a BMOV.

Now I agree that going out of our way creating a specail award for a single individual is probably going too far.   But that is not the same thing as giving a CAP award for something may have gotten an award from someone else.

And this has nothing to do with wanting to have the same sort of blingage to match other organisation....no one has suggested anything of the sort.  This is about rewarding good behavior/actions/service of CAP members on and off duty.

[lordmonar]

If you ask the guy that got the MOH if it would be alright to put them in for the SMOV, they would probably tell you, "thanks for honor but it's really not necessary". So, I would let the MOH stand on it's own merit(which it should).

The RM does give awards for off duty actions. I knew of several soldiers during my AD time that received ARCOMs,etc. for chasing down muggers or helping above and beyond at major accidents while off duty.

Not to mention the Military Oustanding volunteer Service Medal.

Not to mention that all EPRs and Airman/NCO/SNCO of the quarter/year packages have a "community service" componant.

[Ed Bos]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Like I said....beyond what your opinion on what should be recognised....the precedent is already there.  How many of the 400+ S/BMOV that have been awarded are for thing "outside" of CAP?

Cadet Doogood saves a person's life on his way to the CAP meeting (clearly in the regulations as his own and NOT CAP time).....you just say...."good job" and that it, But Capt Imapilot flies two hours with some blood in a cooler in the back seat and he gets a lifesaving ribbon.

Do you see the disconnect there?

By your standard....if Cadet Doogood gets in trouble at school or with the law.....we equally can't/shouldn't do anything about that?  It has no reflection upon his CAP career?  Before you answer think about how you responded to this issue on all the social media threads.  Make sure that you are being consitant with you standards.

Either CAP stops and starts at the door......in all things.....or it does not.  If my non CAP life affects my CAP career.....why should we not reward CAP members when the do good things.....we certainly hammer members when the screw up in their non-CAP life.

+1

CAP isn't an occupation. As long as your dues are current, you're always on "CAP Time." Our membership is expected to represent the organization and live by the Core Values at all times.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, CAP members can receive CAP awards for actions taken outside of their CAP duties.  I don't believe that should be the way things are done, but it is.

[Eclipse]

I am not a proponent of awarding people for actions on personal time, so I the wrong tree to bark on that.

Yes, lifesaving and other, too.

I can name three awards right off hand that are all on personal time.

Recruiting
Community Service
Marksmanship awards (yes I know, you currently can't earn it but you know what I meant).

Nope.  All three are done directly in the name of, or during a CAP activity.

And I'm not a big fan of the CS ribbon, either, so there you go.

I agree there's a precedent, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor that it can't be changed going forward.

[titanII]

There is a problem here that many seem to be overlooking: some CAP awards are designed to award members for actions not taken in CAP activities. There are also awards designed to award members for their actions taken in CAP activities. To say that all awards should be awarded for either CAP or non-CAP actions is too generalistic, and, I think, incorrect. We can't put all awards in one group, we can't just blanket them all with the same rules.
Obviously opinion varies on the above statement. Nothin' I can do about it.