US Standard Issue/Oakley REVISITED

[anonymous former c/col]

In reference to the old thread Oakley GOVERNMENT sales.

HERE IT IS, straight from Oakley:

MEMBER REGISTRATION

We ask every user to register on our site by reviewing and signing a sales agreement and providing a copy of their military or government ID.  This site is only for those who are active duty military, reserve, federal and local law enforcement, fire, EMS and those holding military retiree credentials.

We do want to remind you that participating in this program is a privilege and there are guidelines that must be followed. Please note that as a buyer in this program, you must enter into an agreement between Oakley and you, the Buyer. Once accepted, you the Buyer shall not sell Oakley product to any individual, department, team or unit for a profit. At no time should Oakley products be sold or diverted for resale in any environment whatsoever

The SI Line (Standard Issue), is designed exclusively for government customers.


CAP IS NOT  A GOVERNMENT AGENCY - THERE IS CASE LAW STATING IN FEDERAL COURT IT IS NOT.  IT IS NOT MILITARY.  You are misrepresenting yourselves.  As "Stonewall" put it, "just tell them you are Air Force Auxiliary."  Do you think a civilian company knows what you're talking about?  That's called quibbling and that is lying.    They probably just heard "Air Force".  Some of you lied on your applications too.  Pages 2 and 3 of old thread.  CAP is not a government or military agency!  Some of you pulled the wool over their eyes.  It took them 3 years to catch on.  Now cadets think it's okay.

Nowhere does it say you qualify because you feel like you really, really, really earned them by being in CAP and working on a flight line.

Someone might say it's their responsibility to police their own policy.  The fact is you know you are not military, government, fire, police, EMS, etc.  It is on you.

Trying to take advantage of a program not meant for you is wrong.

You are HONOR-BOUND to abide by their rules.

"I will not lie, cheat, nor steal..."

<I now know Stonewall advised you on a tip from someone else.> It has read this way for years, and any of you who signed up had to read and sign an agreement - so you knew.

Also, calling a company and acting as an agent for CAP is prohibited.  YOU are not in charge of CAP, and can't speak for CAP.

What you did is wrong to get low-cost stuff.  You sold out your integrity for material things. 

That is all I have to say.

[Stonewall]

As I said in 2008...

You have to register and send them proof of your status (EMS, ES, Mil, Fed, LE, etc).  I recently had a friend use his CAP ID so it does work.  I'd mention something about Emergency Services or AIR FORCE AUXILIARY just to play it safe.

I hadn't registered with my CAP ID, a friend (Spaatzen type) tried it on his own and let me know that USSI accepted CAP ID cards.  At no time did I suggest to anyone to lie or misrepresent themselves.  CAP IS the USAF Auxiliary and CAP conducts real world emergency services missions. I didn't ask USSI myself nor did I read anything about their membership requirements.  I just understood it was EMS, ES, Mil, etc., and since I got feedback that they accepted CAP membership as meeting their own criteria, I passed it along.

I think USSI is an awesome program and have exercised my privileges with them for years now, to include 3 separate times here in Afghanistan.

I don't know what happened on here or why everyone got upset and started whining about CAP not being ES, EMS or whatever, but it sounds like someone tried to demand some sort of benefit and possibly ruined the privilege for everyone else.  Whatever happened (I haven't researched anything), I hope someone learned a lesson.

[anonymous former c/col]

Stonewall.  Thank you for being an upstanding guy and not attacking me for pointing this out.

Allow me to say I am not saying you encouraged these people to lie, quibble, etc.  That is what it became.  Members filled out apps stating they were "government" and "military".  Cadets ended up actually calling Oakley asking why they were denied and trying to convince Oakley they deserved a discount.  See comments by coolkites.

I also understand you did not read the Oakley website when you made this suggestion 3 years ago - you got the tip from someone else.   Oakley has always had the same restrictions, and statements, on this program/website.  That is, it is only for military, government, fire, EMS, etc.  Just for clarity EMS stands for "Emergency Medical Services" and CAP is not  part of EMS per CAP's regs.

Oakley does not recognize CAP in this program, and probably only did because of the responses on apps and presentation of "Air Force".

I tried on the previous thread to point out this program is not for CAP and was personally attacked by seniors and cadets.  Some accused me of letting "my diamonds go to my head." 

I have gotten protective eyewear as well through this program, and thank Oakley everytime I have to buy something. 

Thank you for your service.

[NIN]

Wow, less than 18 posts to get the hate & discontent going.

Nice.

[anonymous former c/col]

OKAY.  THIS from a LTC?  Where's the chorus attacking him for bad leadership?

Why is it that pointing out bad behavior is such a sin?

This is in reference to an old 7 page thread.

[AngelWings]

 I'm not high ranking but I will say that you are right. It isn't a great idea to start buying with the discount from a website that only offers its discount to a specific group of people who have the government/military title. Integrity is the best policy. Also, it isn't great for all of us to throw out un-neutral remarks over this topics.

[lordmonar]

Point one.

It is Oaklyey's product and Oakley's program.....it is their duty to insure that they are only giving the benifit out to what they feel are qualifired customers.

If a CAP member sends in his credeintals as a CAP member and Oakley give them the disctount and sells them the item......the Oakley has no problem with CAP.

As NIN pointed out.....19 posts and already you are getting threads locked may not be a great way to start your presance on this forum.

Also a note about your user name.......being anonymous is okay....and touting your accomplishmenst from 20 year ago is okay......putting them together and rubbing it into everyones face is border line trolling.

This is not bad leadership....but a simple gentle hint from the old hands to the new guys. 

[PHall]

You know, reopening locked threads is NOT the way to get on the Mods good side.
Esecially when you're the reason it was locked in the first place...

[BillB]

PHall
I didn't know the Mods had a good side (weaiting for the flaming from Mike)

[RADIOMAN015]

It is Oaklyey's product and Oakley's program.....it is their duty to insure that they are only giving the benifit out to what they feel are qualifired customers.

If a CAP member sends in his credeintals as a CAP member and Oakley give them the disctount and sells them the item......the Oakley has no problem with CAP.

Agree with you on this one  I would think that businesses are looking to expand their customer bases (not contract them) in these economic times.   Civil Air Patrol is the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, and apparently this company has made a business decision that CAP members can get the discount.  IF you had a potential of 30,000+ more customers don't you think you would look favorably on this :angel:    Again it was pointed out that member's have to fax in their ID cards, so no one is misrepresenting themselves.

Although, I would agree that in the local community there's always the potential for misrepresentation or shall I say misinterpretation by the general public, and it is up to the member to ensure ANY discounts they are getting that the giver is totally aware of what CAP is and ISN'T.
RM   

[anonymous former c/col]

Point one.

It is Oaklyey's product and Oakley's program.....it is their duty to insure that they are only giving the benifit out to what they feel are qualifired customers.

If a CAP member sends in his credeintals as a CAP member and Oakley give them the disctount and sells them the item......the Oakley has no problem with CAP.

As NIN pointed out.....19 posts and already you are getting threads locked may not be a great way to start your presance on this forum.

Also a note about your user name.......being anonymous is okay....and touting your accomplishmenst from 20 year ago is okay......putting them together and rubbing it into everyones face is border line trolling.

This is not bad leadership....but a simple gentle hint from the old hands to the new guys. 

Sigh.  Shrug.

You are missing the point of honor.

It is still on your conscience and violates "CAP's core values" to know that YOU do not qualify.  Just because you got one by a company does not make it right.  When cadets grow up it will become, I got one by the govment on my taxes, and so on.

That was my point all along.  This is a moral leadership issue.

I am rubbing my accomplishments into someone's face?  I do not have a rack of ribbons, devices, ranks, etc. displayed on my replies.  I am showing nothing. 

For those of you who are proud of what you've done, that's fine. 

Sigh.

Hey littleguy.  You're alright man.

[HGjunkie]

...

Give it a rest already.

[anonymous former c/col]

Sigh.

CAP also taught me to not quit.

If the mods block me everytime it would be okay if one person learned something about the moral issue here.  CAP is a sacrifice.

This time I won't let those unexpected personal attacks get in the way of making the point. 

BTW, I lost my temper on that locked thread because I expect much higher standards from CAP members.  I was raised by CAP, and was shocked to be new to this forum, and see what I felt was bad behavior being openly discussed.

Seems only littleguy got the salient truth about this whoooooole thing.

[CAP Producer]

You are missing the point of honor.

It is still on your conscience and violates "CAP's core values" to know that YOU do not qualify.  Just because you got one by a company does not make it right.  When cadets grow up it will become, I got one by the govment on my taxes, and so on.

That was my point all along.  This is a moral leadership issue.

I am rubbing my accomplishments into someone's face?  I do not have a rack of ribbons, devices, ranks, etc. displayed on my replies.  I am showing nothing. 

For those of you who are proud of what you've done, that's fine. 

Sigh.

Hey littleguy.  You're alright man.

But yet you post and represent yourself as a former C/Col and a Spaatz Cadet.

Is it not a violation of Core Values (integrity) that you remain anonymous?

In my opinion being anonymous and a "troll" on this or any forum (and presnting an affiliation with CAP) are not good examples of core values in action.

Spaatzen should be setting a better example for us all.

When I am discussing issues with people online I like to know who I am communicating with. It allows me to speak appropriately and respectfully.

I also make it plain who I am so thee are no doubts about my credibility and integrity. To show them the same respect.

Speaking of which I am a CAP Regional Director of Public Affairs, a former National Public Affairs Team Leader and the chair of the CAP National Committee on Social Media.

And you are?

[NIN]

OKAY.  THIS from a LTC?  Where's the chorus attacking him for bad leadership?

Why is it that pointing out bad behavior is such a sin?

This is in reference to an old 7 page thread.

My online behavior and bonafides are well known and documented.  Go ahead, read the archives if you have the time.  We'll wait.  (no, no, really. Its fine. Take your time.)

See, there really is no need for a chorus to "attack" me for "bad leadership," because me pointing out that your online behavior is quite poor and rather boorish is not "bad leadership."

Quite the contrary: Its shows the use of several "good" leadership traits, such as "integrity"(ie. I'm going to call you on it when you're being the online equivalent of a boor), "setting the example" (my online behavior is pretty good.. Especially since I haven't over the course of several years managed to get myself banninated, and especially not in my first 20 posts. Maybe you could learn something here..), "seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions" (not that I'm a mod, but there are such things are "community standards" in online forums, which are demonstrated and enforced by the community members themselves, not just the mods. But I called you out on your poor online behavior, knowing that a) my actions were within the confines of the community standards; and b) that if I didn't take some responsibility there, who would?).

"Bad leadership" would be me sitting back and saying "yeah, this guy's a troll.. whatever.. I'll just watch and wait till Mike throws some mod-fu at him" instead of being a little proactive and trying to point out that you should modify your online behavior to conform to the community standards.

Clearly, I was a tad too subtle and the message was lost. I was trying to exercise a little "tact", yet another good leadership trait, especially from field-grade officers.

But seriously, lets get down to some brass tacks here (Caution: I'll be exercising yet another good leadership trait, that of "honesty," here, so if you're not ready for me not to sugar coat things for you, well, you might want to cover your eyes..)

First, in coming on here and playing your little anonymous troll game, you're in effect saying "I am utterly incapable of standing behind my words" or "I don't want the things I say here to be associated with my name." 

What is that, hmmm?  There is a rather strong word I could use, but I don't think it completely applies here, plus, it has additional baggage along with it.

So I'll just say that I think you don't have the conviction of character to stand behind the words you type.

Which immediately makes me believe that you're deliberately being inflammatory to get a reaction out of people online.

Know what that's called? 

Trolling.

It also makes me believe that since you can't stand behind your words, you think you have the "freedom to be a jerk" (for lack of a better term) in a way that you would never be "IRL."

This is also trolling, but points to a rather prevalent phenomenon that is actually well documented on the Internet:


Yup.

I'm sure you're a perfectly normal guy IRL.  But you've elected to come on here and play the faceless jester to a room full of people who were, before you arrived, doing just fine, and will be doing just fine minutes after you leave, too.

Here's a hint: You're not god's gift to Civil Air Patrol.  You're not the second coming, here to show us all the error of our ways.

Quite the opposite: in 20 or so posts, you've proven that you're someone whose opinion is not really all that valid (yet).

Who was it that said "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?" 

I frequently have opinions on subjects found here, some of them quite vehement.  But sometimes I just keep my mouth shut and listen while my betters discuss things that I might not actually be a subject matter expert on.

Thankfully, I've been around the block several hundred times (28 years in CAP, 30 total in uniform will do that to you) and I can successfully opine on a number of topics now and I sometimes make like E.F. Hutton.

But when I'm new in a particular community, I do a LOT more listening than talking.

What was it someone once said?  "You were given two ears and one mouth, because you're supposed to listen twice as much as you talk."

So please: continue to point your anonymous finger at me to deflect the criticism away from your behavior.  Its clearly been seen for what it is ("Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations") and in the long run, the chorus don't buy that.

[AngelWings]

 Internet: A place to mingle and for different personalities to make Sunday night entertainment  :clap: .

[HGjunkie]

NIN, that picture cracks me up every time I see it.

Littleguy, got any popcorn? 

[AngelWings]

NIN, that picture cracks me up every time I see it.

Littleguy, got any popcorn? 

Sure. want some 

[NIN]

Internet: A place to mingle and for different personalities to make Sunday night entertainment  :clap: .

Better than "All In The Family" re-runs. (But strangely not dissimilar )

[lordmonar]

Sigh.  Shrug.

You are missing the point of honor.

It is still on your conscience and violates "CAP's core values" to know that YOU do not qualify.  Just because you got one by a company does not make it right.  When cadets grow up it will become, I got one by the govment on my taxes, and so on.

That was my point all along.  This is a moral leadership issue.

I am rubbing my accomplishments into someone's face?  I do not have a rack of ribbons, devices, ranks, etc. displayed on my replies.  I am showing nothing. 

For those of you who are proud of what you've done, that's fine. 

Sigh.

Hey littleguy.  You're alright man.

Nothing wrong with asking is there?  Nothing immoral about asking for a discount and/or product that is offered to the military.

I mean they offer their product to retirees.......I am a retired USAF member....I don't need their products or their discounts.....so why should I be included.  Oakley asks for an ID card to be faxed.....so the accept CAP.....sounds good to me.  No honor stolen, no need to say that it some sort of ethics violation.

Oakley seems to be okay with it........the few Real Military and Former Military on this forum don't have a problem with it......why do you?

[AngelWings]

Internet: A place to mingle and for different personalities to make Sunday night entertainment  :clap: .

Better than "All In The Family" re-runs. (But strangely not dissimilar )

That had me dying.  I think we should make a show "Odds and Ends of CAP", we'd be more popular than Jesery Shore.

[HGjunkie]

NIN, that picture cracks me up every time I see it.

Littleguy, got any popcorn? 

Sure. want some 

Sounds good, I'll get some drinks. 

That had me dying.  I think we should make a show "Odds and Ends of CAP", we'd be more popular than Jesery Shore.

And we wouldn't even need to script any of the drama.

[AngelWings]

NIN, that picture cracks me up every time I see it.

Littleguy, got any popcorn? 

Sure. want some 

Sounds good, I'll get some drinks. 

That had me dying.  I think we should make a show "Odds and Ends of CAP", we'd be more popular than Jesery Shore.

And we wouldn't even need to script any of the drama.

Ahh. Nothing better than this for sunday. And yeah, this would be totally unscripted.  . I could see the first episode, the "Pilot".

[HGjunkie]

We need a title theme. Anyone up to making an intro guitar-techno riff?

[coolkites]

I know we all really just want to let this thread die (almost all of us) but I really feel like I want to clarify a couple of claims here because there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinterpretation going on here.

We ask every user to register on our site by reviewing and signing a sales agreement and providing a copy of their military or government ID.  This site is only for those who are active duty military, reserve, federal and local law enforcement, fire, EMS and those holding military retiree credentials.

Yes Oakley does say this on their page. But they also list nearly a dozen more agencies at the bottom of their page. Among them DHS, FBI, Fire, etc...  The point being that the list you point to is not the end all. I really feel like the intent of the CAP members here is being misinterpreted. Everyone who applied or who tried to apply was under the impression that we were allowed to. When I talked with their customer service on the phone I asked if SAR qualified and they told me yes. If they had said no then I would have said thank you and hung up. Nobody tried to mis-represent themselves. I actually corrected the lady on the phone who thought we were military. I told her that CAP is actually not a part of the military and that we are 100% civilian.

CAP IS NOT  A GOVERNMENT AGENCY - THERE IS CASE LAW STATING IN FEDERAL COURT IT IS NOT.  IT IS NOT MILITARY.  You are misrepresenting yourselves.  As "Stonewall" put it, "just tell them you are Air Force Auxiliary." Do you think a civilian company knows what you're talking about?  That's called quibbling and that is lying.    They probably just heard "Air Force".

They actually did not know what they were talking about. But nobody lied and played on their confusion. As I said above I corrected the customer service agent (politely) and let her know that we are not part of the military and that we are indeed civilian.

Also, calling a company and acting as an agent for CAP is prohibited.  YOU are not in charge of CAP, and can't speak for CAP.

Nobody called them and acted as an "agent" for CAP.

Someone might say it's their responsibility to police their own policy.  The fact is you know you are not military, government, fire, police, EMS, etc.  It is on you.

Everyone understands that we are a civilian SAR group (among other missions). That is why clarification was needed. I can tell you with full honesty that I was told by Oakley (or one of their customer service agents) that SAR organizations do qualify for the program because they fall under general ES. If you think about it it really does make sense. CAP performs often dangerous mission in order to save lives. I am not going to claim to be on an equal playing field with SEALS or PJs or any of those groups, but I do honestly believe that CAP does play a very important role in the United States we now live in. I truly do admire those members who are willing to wake up at 0300 and go digging through a junk field in order to find and silence an ELT. They have earned a lot of respect from me. If somebody or some company (such as Oakley) wants to provide a discount for CAP members than I see no reason why they should feel bad about using that discount. If Oakley decides not to provide that discount or to stop providing it then that is their choice. If somebody here was told that CAP does not qualify and then they continued trying to get through by playing the Air Force card or something like that then I would feel like they were being malicious and dishonest, but the fact of the matter is that that did not happen.

All in all I think we need to realize that nobody here had malicious intent when trying to use the program. I would feel confident saying that nobody would have bothered even trying if they knew that we as an organization were not allowed. Frankly I'm getting a little bit tired and irritated with you anonymous former c/col because I feel like you are just out to attack members for their actions while taking zero responsibility for your own. I personally would appreciate it if you would stop. You already said once that you were done (see below) I can't quote because the mods locked the thread (thank goodness) but here is a copy and paste of what you said.

   
Re: OAKLEY GOVERNMENT SALES
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »   
Nope, I'm done.  Have fun.

Now I would appreciate it and respectfully request that you be a man of your word and be done. No need to reply. I'm going to go ahead and assume that everyone is well aware of what you think on this issue.

Now let's all just move on with our lives and let this thread die, unless of course you all want to start discussing the details of our new reality TV show.

[anonymous former c/col]

I've said what I felt needed to be said.  Some get it - some don't.

I can't post my name, where I am in the country, for reasons some of you will scoff at.  Go ahead, make fun of me.  I'm gonna lay it out.  Here it is PAO and NIN:

I had a CAP member stalker who terrorized me for years.

I am not a man.

Happy?  Laugh that one up.

[AngelWings]

I know we all really just want to let this thread die (almost all of us) but I really feel like I want to clarify a couple of claims here because there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinterpretation going on here.

We ask every user to register on our site by reviewing and signing a sales agreement and providing a copy of their military or government ID.  This site is only for those who are active duty military, reserve, federal and local law enforcement, fire, EMS and those holding military retiree credentials.

Yes Oakley does say this on their page. But they also list nearly a dozen more agencies at the bottom of their page. Among them DHS, FBI, Fire, etc...  The point being that the list you point to is not the end all. I really feel like the intent of the CAP members here is being misinterpreted. Everyone who applied or who tried to apply was under the impression that we were allowed to. When I talked with their customer service on the phone I asked if SAR qualified and they told me yes. If they had said no then I would have said thank you and hung up. Nobody tried to mis-represent themselves. I actually corrected the lady on the phone who thought we were military. I told her that CAP is actually not a part of the military and that we are 100% civilian.

CAP IS NOT  A GOVERNMENT AGENCY - THERE IS CASE LAW STATING IN FEDERAL COURT IT IS NOT.  IT IS NOT MILITARY.  You are misrepresenting yourselves.  As "Stonewall" put it, "just tell them you are Air Force Auxiliary." Do you think a civilian company knows what you're talking about?  That's called quibbling and that is lying.    They probably just heard "Air Force".

They actually did not know what they were talking about. But nobody lied and played on their confusion. As I said above I corrected the customer service agent (politely) and let her know that we are not part of the military and that we are indeed civilian.

Also, calling a company and acting as an agent for CAP is prohibited.  YOU are not in charge of CAP, and can't speak for CAP.

Nobody called them and acted as an "agent" for CAP.

Someone might say it's their responsibility to police their own policy.  The fact is you know you are not military, government, fire, police, EMS, etc.  It is on you.

Everyone understands that we are a civilian SAR group (among other missions). That is why clarification was needed. I can tell you with full honesty that I was told by Oakley (or one of their customer service agents) that SAR organizations do qualify for the program because they fall under general ES. If you think about it it really does make sense. CAP performs often dangerous mission in order to save lives. I am not going to claim to be on an equal playing field with SEALS or PJs or any of those groups, but I do honestly believe that CAP does play a very important role in the United States we now live in. I truly do admire those members who are willing to wake up at 0300 and go digging through a junk field in order to find and silence an ELT. They have earned a lot of respect from me. If somebody or some company (such as Oakley) wants to provide a discount for CAP members than I see no reason why they should feel bad about using that discount. If Oakley decides not to provide that discount or to stop providing it then that is their choice. If somebody here was told that CAP does not qualify and then they continued trying to get through by playing the Air Force card or something like that then I would feel like they were being malicious and dishonest, but the fact of the matter is that that did not happen.

All in all I think we need to realize that nobody here had malicious intent when trying to use the program. I would feel confident saying that nobody would have bothered even trying if they knew that we as an organization were not allowed. Frankly I'm getting a little bit tired and irritated with you anonymous former c/col because I feel like you are just out to attack members for their actions while taking zero responsibility for your own. I personally would appreciate it if you would stop. You already said once that you were done (see below) I can't quote because the mods locked the thread (thank goodness) but here is a copy and paste of what you said.

   
Re: OAKLEY GOVERNMENT SALES
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »   
Nope, I'm done.  Have fun.

Now I would appreciate it and respectfully request that you be a man of your word and be done. No need to reply. I'm going to go ahead and assume that everyone is well aware of what you think on this issue.

Now let's all just move on with our lives and let this thread die, unless of course you all want to start discussing the details of our new reality TV show.

And boom goes the dynamite. Had to get that in.

[HGjunkie]

... unless of course you all want to start discussing the details of our new reality TV show.

We should split that off into an entirely different thread.

Also, inb4 modlock.

[SarDragon]

Reddenbacher, anyone"

[HGjunkie]

Reddenbacher, anyone"

it's not popcorn if it's not Oriville Reddenbacher!