CAP Talk

I saw on CAPBlog where it was hoped that Gen Courter would reverse the damage done by TP, inc the TPU among other things. Does anyone think they would actually revoke this uniform? To me it is a step in the right direction with standardized pants and a halfway military lok to it...perhaps we can finally lose the whites and greys?

Perhaps the real question is, should I call Tom and cancel mine and my wife's blue nametags and epaulets? :)

I think that the White / Blue Coporate uniform needs to be the only Corporate Uniform.  It should allow for those members who are both fat (myself) and fuzzy.  That would alleviate the non-uniform shades of grey that are prevalent.  You are still keeping the grey pants with the golf shirt, however, I think it needs to be just the 1625's with the Aviator Shirts.  YMMV.

I for one like the new Corporate Uniform.

What is nice about it is that it is a 'complete' uniform from head to toe. As opposed to the White/Grey Combo which only looks good from the waist up because everyone has a different pair of gray slacks, a different belt and any number of different 'black shoes'. This same ailment is what makes the 'Polo Combo' not as desireable as it could be.

I for one did not drop almost $500 into a uniform combination only to have it yanked out from under me less than a year later. Thank you very much.

I don't think the so-called "TPU" will be going anywhere very fast.  Based on teh number of poeple I have seen wearing it in photos (including Brig Gen Courter), at conferences and even some cadets that posts photos on CADETSTUFF (you know who you are...I can see you twitching!)

Frankly, I don't see it as being solely Pineda's doing.  For something like that to be aprroved, it requires more than just an "executive descision" on the part of the National Commander.  I think this was a motion by a broader scope of persons.

In anycase, I do not own one such uniform for even a single item (save for the CAP ribbons, drawers and shoes that are somewhat required  ;)) of that uniform.  Not even a white aviator shirt.

Should I buy one?

I reccomend the TPU Major. I like it, it's comforable, it's just as professional looking as the Blues.

If we named it after the National CC, does that mean that we can call it the ACU now?

Quote from: floridacyclist on October 03, 2007, 05:14:18 PM
If we named it after the National CC, does that mean that we can call it the ACU now?

With the ultramarine blue nametapes?

I like the TPU  better than the grey/white combo. It is a complete uniform, but I wish the would change the grey sleeve braid with the blue braid. It make everyone that wears the uniform look like an Ensign or Admiral. Also I would like to see the old pocket flaps with silver buttons on this uniform it would make it more like a military uniform and less like a business suit. That just my opinion. This uniform can be worn as a semi-formal so many members do not have to buy mess dress uniforms. We could add wear medals in place of ribbons for semi-formal occasion would be nice.

Quote from: floridacyclist on October 03, 2007, 05:14:18 PM
If we named it after the National CC, does that mean that we can call it the ACU now?

I don't know why people chose to call it the "TPU" to begin with.  Ironically, it is those persons who most hate "TP" that assigned that moniker (likely out of spite) that may have endured that name for the ages.

I believe it is porperly referred to as "The Corporate Service Coat."  I may start to refer to it as the CSC.

As I said, I don't think it will be going anywhere for at least 5 years, too many have spent so much on it and, based on the "financial" issues many people are "living and dying" by in counter points in those Cadet Shoulder Board/ Golf Shirt threads, I doubt people will merely cancel out the some $500 purchase willy-nilly.

I vote for the CSU Corporate Service Uniform.

Quote from: USCAP_truth on October 03, 2007, 05:23:05 PM
I vote for the CSU Corporate Service Uniform.

I can back that up.

Aw, C'mon...

You KNOW there's about as much chance of "TPU" dropping out of the CAP lexicon as there is for getting Air Force pilots to stop calling the A-10 the "Warthog." 

Besides, 20 years from now, when I'm sitting in a rocker doped up with medicine at the "Old CAP Pilot's Home" and somebody asks me why the TPU is called that, I'll know, because... we ALL were a part of CAP history and tradition in the making.

I thought it might be interesting to see what people think about the fate of this uniform.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 03, 2007, 05:32:34 PM
when I'm sitting in a rocker doped up with medicine at the "Old CAP Pilot's Home"

Is that the same as a Wing Staff meeting... >:D

Don't forget, the TPU is the only uniform that allows ex-military fat bodies to wear the Military Awards they have EARNED.  My only change would be to allow the wear of badges as well.

( I personally find it offensive that someone who has served his country honorably, and then continues to serve in a volunteer capacity is precluded from wearing that which he/she was awarded by a competent military authority.  Frankly, you should just say "thanks", not "Well, whatever, but you are too fat to wear that anymore."

I think that wearing military ribbons and badges would be nice, but I think it would take a CAP constitution change to make that happen.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 03, 2007, 05:38:45 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 03, 2007, 05:32:34 PM
when I'm sitting in a rocker doped up with medicine at the "Old CAP Pilot's Home"

Is that the same as a Wing Staff meeting... >:D

Depends on the Wing!

Why would we get rid of it? It obviously has enough support to stay alive. That's just my opinion though. I vote yes, we will keep it.

It's the TPU becuase it was presented by TP to the NEC without warning and they were told to vote on it.  Not wanting to loose thier heads (Eagles), they nodded and said "OK". 

I am qualified to wear the AF uniform, so I won't be jumping into the TPU.  But IMHO the dbl breasted makes the fat folks look fatter, the silver braid looks like you  work for Delta and I think the whole thing just pissed off the AF.

Plus I've seen all sorts of combinations including the white aviator shirt with AF epaulets and gray pants, with a grey nametag also a white aviator shirt with grey epaulets and blue pants and blue nametag.  Sheesh.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the TPU could be modified.

In the same way that Fogleman modified McPeake's USAF suit. (added epaulets, removed sleeve braid, added cutouts)

Remove the silver braid.
Go to the same cloth rank slides as the rest of CAP uses (no more pin-on or blue epaulets)
Standardize on a single nametag to be used on both coats (and if you gotta, a second nametag to be used on both shirts).

And give it all a 2 year phase in period.


(but yeah, going double breasted for a fat boy suit - it makes everyone look like Chief O'Hara on Batman.  Not the best choice)

Topics merged.  Use the search feature before posting new topics.

Quote from: Smokey on October 03, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
It's the TPU becuase it was presented by TP to the NEC without warning and they were told to vote on it.  Not wanting to loose thier heads (Eagles), they nodded and said "OK". 

Sounds a bit too "simplistic" to be true.  This is, after all, the United States of America and a volunteer organization; to suggest that one man "strong armed" the NEC for fear of reprisals from this man Pineda is less plausable than for the NEC to have been in true support.

The correct action by the NEC, if they had objections, was to "table" the motion...or deny a vote.

I saw the same sort on inaction, tacit approval, with the "US CIVIL AIR PATROL NAMETAPES."  If there were to have been any objections, people have got to have stood up.

Quote from: Smokey on October 03, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
I am qualified to wear the AF uniform, so I won't be jumping into the TPU.  But IMHO the dbl breasted makes the fat folks look fatter, the silver braid looks like you  work for Delta and I think the whole thing just pissed off the AF.

As do I, I have no plans to get that combo.

The last part is quite untrue.  I spoke with a very important Col and he expressed to me that no cared about it...it was considered an "interal CAP" thing of which the USAF had no control.  Basically, that we made more of it than they did.  Also, that the halls of the pentagon and SAC bases were NOT filled with talk of  it.

Quote from: Smokey on October 03, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
Plus I've seen all sorts of combinations including the white aviator shirt with AF epaulets and gray pants, with a grey nametag also a white aviator shirt with grey epaulets and blue pants and blue nametag.  Sheesh.

This is an issue of individuals, not masses.

SAC bases?

Man, there ain't been SAC bases since I had an 8-track in my car!

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 03, 2007, 08:30:36 PM
SAC bases?

Man, there ain't been SAC bases since I had an 8-track in my car!

For effect...Kach, only for effect! ;)

Read AFI 10-2701 section 1.3.4 about our uniforms. The USC and the CAP corporate constitution states that the name of the corporation is "Civil Air Patrol" not "U. S. Civil Air Patrol". Maybe the cutouts should be USCAP. Just food for discussion

Quote from: USCAP_truth on October 03, 2007, 09:35:21 PM
Read AFI 10-2701 section 1.3.4 about our uniforms. The USC and the CAP corporate constitution states that the name of the corporation is "Civil Air Patrol" not "U. S. Civil Air Patrol". Maybe the cutouts should be USCAP. Just food for discussion

AFI 10-2701 does not govern us as individuals in Civil Air Patrol, that would be (en re uniforms), CAPM 39-1.

Now, that beging said...I don't think the "US Civil Air Patrol" thing was lumped into the Corporate Service Uniform.  Rather, I think it was one of those..."hey, this would be nifty things."

No one challenged it...if it was so "disturbing" why didn't Wing and Region commanders rais emore of a voice? 

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 03, 2007, 08:30:36 PM
Man, there ain't been SAC bases since I had an 8-track in my car!

Don't you still have an 8-track in your car?

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 03, 2007, 04:56:46 PM
I don't think the so-called "TPU" will be going anywhere very fast.  Based on teh number of poeple I have seen wearing it in photos (including Brig Gen Courter), at conferences and even some cadets that posts photos on CADETSTUFF (you know who you are...I can see you twitching!)

Frankly, I don't see it as being solely Pineda's doing.  For something like that to be aprroved, it requires more than just an "executive descision" on the part of the National Commander.  I think this was a motion by a broader scope of persons.

In anycase, I do not own one such uniform for even a single item (save for the CAP ribbons, drawers and shoes that are somewhat required  ;)) of that uniform.  Not even a white aviator shirt.

Should I buy one?

That is, without a doubt, the best reference to my cadet stuff handler I've ever see!

LONG LIVE THE TPU FOR CADETS!

Quote from: TankerT on October 03, 2007, 09:55:57 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 03, 2007, 08:30:36 PM
Man, there ain't been SAC bases since I had an 8-track in my car!

Don't you still have an 8-track in your car?

Not since I got rid of my 1970 Plymouth Duster.  I had some good times in that car. 

Quote from: USCAP_truth on October 03, 2007, 05:47:29 PM
I think that wearing military ribbons and badges would be nice, but I think it would take a CAP constitution change to make that happen.

It has nothing to do with the CAP constitution. The various military branches determine what decorations they permit on various pieces of civilian clothing, and how it's worn on that clothing. If a military branch says "You may wear your medals on a tux" then that's the matter permitted. It doesn't mean you can wear it on whatever you want.

CAP has no authority or standing on what the military determines as acceptable wear. Too many people have the idea that CAP has implemented the restriction, and it's incorrect. Even though it looks military, the "Corporate Service Coat" is still technically civilian clothing. CAP can decide to wear whatever they want that the corporation has created. They cannot decide to allow awards, decorations, badges or insignia of the military without approval of the military branch in question.

Not since I got rid of my 1970 Plymouth Duster.  I had some good times in that car.



Front or back seat Kack??????

As far as the "Will the TPU stay?", I think it probably will. It was a mistake, but McPeak did the same thing. Hopefully, Amy Courter will follow in Fogleman's footsteps and clean it up. It could use a little work, but overall it's really not a bad concept overall.

Not to derail the discussion, but heres a question for you.

the "TPU" has yet to be encapsulated in any regulation.  Mr. Pineda issued emergency orders following each board meeting, and those emergency orders are only valid until the next board meeting. 

Since he did not issue said order following the last board meeting, is the uniform even valid now?

Quote from: Smokey on October 04, 2007, 12:38:06 AM
Not since I got rid of my 1970 Plymouth Duster.  I had some good times in that car.



Front or back seat Kack??????

Both.

I was an animal.

Quote from: Hawk200 on October 04, 2007, 12:42:26 AM
As far as the "Will the TPU stay?", I think it probably will. It was a mistake, but McPeak did the same thing. Hopefully, Amy Courter will follow in Fogleman's footsteps and clean it up. It could use a little work, but overall it's really not a bad concept overall.

I agree with you.

An alternative to the USAF uniform for the chubby rascals has been a long time in coming.  The overall look of the TPU however is that of a Third-World Admiral of a patrol boat navy.  Or a Nebraska admiral, I'm not sure.

I don't know why the Air Force is so strict about the weight of CAP members to wear the USAF uniform, but has ZERO rules for state guardsmen who wear the USAF uniform.

My personal choice would be to develop ONE uniform, make it corporate, and ALL officers wear the same one.  Make it close to the USAF uniform so that people can see what team we are on, but sufficiently different that the AF can rest assured that nobody will mistake us for them.

That's not likely, so I hope we can just clean up the TPU, maybe lose the silver braid.

Quote from: Dragoon on October 03, 2007, 07:51:04 PM
it makes everyone look like Chief O'Hara on Batman.  Not the best choice

Saints alive, lad: bite yer tongue!

Quote from: Dragoon on October 03, 2007, 07:51:04 PM
(but yeah, going double breasted for a fat boy suit - it makes everyone look like Chief O'Hara on Batman.  Not the best choice)

I can take the personal stuff, I can stand for cracks about CAP leaders and even POTUS, but when you take the name of the single most effective law enforcement officer in the history of alternative universes in vain...well THAT "sir" is cause for an драка!

Theres a rumor that the US in USCAP will go BY BY

Quote from: MajorChuck on October 04, 2007, 04:11:44 AM
Theres a rumor that the US in USCAP will go BY BY

Good.  I hope it's true. 

Know anything about the reverse American Flag patches on the BDU?  Are they going to go bye bye too?  That was another Pineda screw-up.   

Quote from: ♠1 on October 04, 2007, 04:48:01 AM

Quote from: MajorChuck on October 04, 2007, 04:11:44 AM
Theres a rumor that the US in USCAP will go BY BY

Good.  I hope it's true. 

Know anything about the reverse American Flag patches on the BDU?  Are they going to go bye bye too?  That was another Pineda screw-up.   

"One Note Charlie..."

'nuff said!

Quote from: Smokey on October 03, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
and I think the whole thing just pissed off the AF.

Initially that was what I thought, too....however, I later heard from reliable sources that  USAF was actually pleased to see a corporate uniform that fit in with the AF service uniform (note to Terminology Police: if 'service uniform' is the wrong phrase, i officially apologize in advance!)

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 04, 2007, 05:12:40 AM

Quote from: Smokey on October 03, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
and I think the whole thing just pissed off the AF.

Initially that was what I thought, too....however, I later heard from reliable sources that  USAF was actually pleased to see a corporate uniform that fit in with the AF service uniform (note to Terminology Police: if 'service uniform' is the wrong phrase, i officially apologize in advance!)

String 'im up! Run 'im outta town on a rail! Tar and feather 'im! Espousing such heretical and incorrect terminology will get you a one-way ticket to the gulag!  ;) :D ;D

I really don't think it matters how you describe it, as long as you don't give someone from the CAP terminology Gestapo a coronary by referring to 'em as 'Class As'.  ;D (And I'm not one of 'em.)

I believe the corporate uniform will be around for some time.  First of all, a lot of members have purchased one, so there would be resistance to its removal because of all the money spent.

Second, it's a good concept.  Develop a single uniform equivalent to the AF-style service uniform that all members can wear.  Certainly there are details that could be adjusted.  For one, everyone (including fuzzies) should be able to wear it.  It's a corporate uniform, so all the corporate membership should be able to wear it.  And the different devices and such could be adjusted.  But overall, the idea was a good one.

Keep the CSU.  But Modify it.
Grey slides on service coat
3 line grey name badge and slides on Aviator shirt.
loose the silver braid on coat.

Then We will look as close in uniform as possible.

eliminate older Corprate Uni Except for Polo/Grey slacks.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 04, 2007, 01:51:46 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on October 04, 2007, 12:42:26 AM
As far as the "Will the TPU stay?", I think it probably will. It was a mistake, but McPeak did the same thing. Hopefully, Amy Courter will follow in Fogleman's footsteps and clean it up. It could use a little work, but overall it's really not a bad concept overall.

I agree with you.

An alternative to the USAF uniform for the chubby rascals has been a long time in coming.  The overall look of the TPU however is that of a Third-World Admiral of a patrol boat navy.  Or a Nebraska admiral, I'm not sure.

I don't know why the Air Force is so strict about the weight of CAP members to wear the USAF uniform, but has ZERO rules for state guardsmen who wear the USAF uniform.

My personal choice would be to develop ONE uniform, make it corporate, and ALL officers wear the same one.  Make it close to the USAF uniform so that people can see what team we are on, but sufficiently different that the AF can rest assured that nobody will mistake us for them.

That's not likely, so I hope we can just clean up the TPU, maybe lose the silver braid.

I think the one UNIFORM idea is the only real solution as it is the only solution that brings about uniformity.

Although, I would vote (if I HAD a vote, mind you) against any short-term dismissal of the CSU, particularly due to the expense involved in its replacement and the numbers of members who've invested hundreds of dollars to buy one ... I would suggest a 5-year (perhaps) phase-in of a distinctive uniform adult OFFICERS and NCOs would wear.

Since the USAF issues a basic service uniform to cadets, let them continue to wear the USAF blue combos.

My recommendation --stated before-- would be for a return of a modernized khaki uniform (wrinkle free w/sewn-in creases, teflon stain resistant, e.g. Docker's twill material) with a blue flight cap, belt, nametag, and black shoes. It would be military. It would reflect CAPs history and heritage. It would be functional.

The blue flight suit could be maintained and the BBDU (or a khaki BDU, option for those in more tropical areas, where it would be cooler than the dark blue).

Add a nice khaki overblouse (for dress) and a blue tie and we have a uniform wardrobe.

I think it's absurd that there are active duty USAF personnel who do not meet  H/W to wear the CAP/USAF uniform combos (because the weight standards are those of basic training) and not a 20+ year career officer or NCO.

If the USAF myopically won't budge on their needlessly restrictive standards (and hypocritically allowing SDF personnel to wear their uni's regardless of H/W), CAP should do the budging for them and seek uniformity on our own.

Until something better comes about, though, I'll support the CSU as it is ... a handsome, professional uniform (with or w/o the silver braid) that can be worn by those no longer meeting USAF BMTS H/W standards.

I don't think the TPU looks that bad with the service coat on, but as pointed out, double-breasted isn't too flattering a cut of large people in the first place.  However, if I were to buy the uniform the first thing I'd do is take the aviator shirt to the tailor and have it "altered" to more of a "military cut" so it is more fitted like the AF light blue shirts are...

Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 04, 2007, 01:17:59 PM
I don't think the TPU looks that bad with the service coat on, but as pointed out, double-breasted isn't too flattering a cut of large people in the first place.  However, if I were to buy the uniform the first thing I'd do is take the aviator shirt to the tailor and have it "altered" to more of a "military cut" so it is more fitted like the AF light blue shirts are...

Somewhere in the bowels of CAPtalk is a thread with links to alternative sources for the white aviator shirt.  I just ordered one from "Pilotshirts.com" that is the same cut, material, pocket flaps, and style as the USAF shirt, except it is white in color.  About $31 including tax, title, delivery, and dealer prep.

Not to be rude, but wouldn't purchasing an aviator shirt cut as though it were an air force uniform shirt destroy the uniformity of the corporate uniform?

I don't think so, I think it would make it actually fit me.  I've tried on an equivalent size aviator shirt and it looks like I'm wearing a potato sack.  For some reason, shirt manufacturers assume that people with 15 1/2 inch necks have a 60 inch chest and a 100 inch stomach.

I'm not talking about having it cut so that it looks like it's painted on, just normal alterations to make it more "fitting."

U.S. Civil Air Patrol:  Keep it on the BDU's/BBDU's: Vanguard, Hock & others have already phased out the old ones, and all-in-all it doesn't look that bad.

Additionally, I'm not all that worried about $1 nametapes...

I do have a problem with $5 & $10 nameplates.

It has been said that the move towards the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" was an attempt to surreptitiously steer CAP towards more independence from USAF.

It would stand to reason that given recent events, that campaign has or will quickly lose steam.

Quote from: O-Rex on October 04, 2007, 02:09:15 PM
U.S. Civil Air Patrol:  Keep it on the BDU's/BBDU's: Vanguard, Hock & others have already phased out the old ones, and all-in-all it doesn't look that bad.

Additionally, I'm not all that worried about $1 nametapes...

I do have a problem with $5 & $10 nameplates.

It has been said that the move towards the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" was an attempt to surreptitiously steer CAP towards more independence from USAF.

It would stand to reason that given recent events, that campaign has or will quickly lose steam.

No, it was because Pineda was mistaken for a Guatemalan general by some old lady in New Orleans during Katrina.

I say lose the U.S., we really don't need it. However, if it doesn't get dropped, no skin off my back, just a few bucks out of my wallet.

Quote from: jeders on October 04, 2007, 02:59:46 PM
No, it was because Pineda was mistaken for a Guatemalan general by some old lady in New Orleans during Katrina.

Is that really true or was that a myth?

I recall strage specuations involving Pineda that were the result of someone making a comment on one forum, then having it quoted as fact on another so many times it became the "TRUTH!!!"

I don't mind true stories being floated about, but urban legends are another matter.  Can anyone here actually testify to that?

I recall on CADETSTUFF that, when shoulder chords on aides-de-camps, became an issue...someone made up a story about these people "clearing a restroom" like body guards.  By the end of the week it had become gospel.

What is/was fact and what is blaney?

He never was in New Orleans.  CAP didn't have any on-the-ground presence there during Katrina that I ever heard of.

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 04, 2007, 03:59:27 PM

Quote from: jeders on October 04, 2007, 02:59:46 PM
No, it was because Pineda was mistaken for a Guatemalan general by some old lady in New Orleans during Katrina.

Is that really true or was that a myth?

I recall strage specuations involving Pineda that were the result of someone making a comment on one forum, then having it quoted as fact on another so many times it became the "TRUTH!!!"

I don't mind true stories being floated about, but urban legends are another matter.  Can anyone here actually testify to that?

I recall on CADETSTUFF that, when shoulder chords on aides-de-camps, became an issue...someone made up a story about these people "clearing a restroom" like body guards.  By the end of the week it had become gospel.

What is/was fact and what is blaney?

I don't know whether it's actual fact, but it was the only story I heard for about 6 months until I saw speculation about it being to separate us from the Air Force. Personally, I would believe that it was Pineda being mistaken, just seems to make more sense to me based on what we've heard about him. Not to mention the fact that there are many easier ways to separate us from the Air Force.

Back to the original topic of the TPU going bye bye, I doubt it will ever happen, but if it does stay, I hope that it gets cleaned up so it looks more Air Force and less Coast Guard.

If you look at the Coast Guard Auxiliary uniform theirs are single breasted service coats. Why don't we trade their single breasted for our double breasted.

The CGAux Service Dress Blue Bravo is a USCG Service Dress Blue Bravo with disitinctive buttons and sleeve lace.

Quote from: ♠1 on October 04, 2007, 04:48:01 AMKnow anything about the reverse American Flag patches on the BDU?  Are they going to go bye bye too?  That was another Pineda screw-up.   

Personnally, I don't mind a flag on the BDU's. But I think it should have gone on the left sleeve. When the Air Force actually wore it on BDU's that's where they put it. It would have been easy to cover up the "shadow" left by wing patches.

Two, it would be a little more fitting in that we could use flightsuit stock flags. A bit of solidarity across the various uniforms.

Three, I've been seeing people putting the flag on the right shoulder of flightsuits lately. They don't know any better, and when you mention it to them, it's the same answer: "That's how my squadron told me to wear it." That's an issue.

Agreed.  We need as few special rules as possible.  One set of insignia, worn one way.

We don't do this often enough to have different rules for different suits.

Quote from: Dragoon on October 04, 2007, 07:03:04 PM
We don't do this often enough to have different rules for different suits.

Mind if I borrow that? Fits what I try to tell people...

Quote from: RiverAux on October 04, 2007, 04:02:04 PM
He never was in New Orleans.  CAP didn't have any on-the-ground presence there during Katrina that I ever heard of.

During? Or after? Look back a few issues of Volunteer to see what the CAP presence was afterward.

Quote from: MajorChuck on October 04, 2007, 12:43:35 PM
Keep the CSU.  But Modify it.
Grey slides on service coat
3 line grey name badge and slides on Aviator shirt.
loose the silver braid on coat.

Then We will look as close in uniform as possible.

eliminate older Corprate Uni Except for Polo/Grey slacks.

I usually stay out of uniform threads, but I will second this idea.  It needs to be set up so  that all insignia that work for the AF uniform will also work on the CSU and be worn in the same manner.  Possible exception would be keeping the CAP cutouts on the service coat and U.S. insignia on the AF style coat, but I'm not too concerned about that one either way.

Right now, a group together with members wearing the AF style and the CSU looks like a meeting of 2 different organizations.

2 different organizations?

With the many uniform choices we have, our meetings look like NATO conferences!

At our recent Squadron meeting we had a prospective Senior Member show up and he asked about uniforms, I glanced around the room and saw AF blues, TPU sans jacket, white and grays, and golf shirt combos.  I had to explain the differences as well as about the two different BDUs and the two different Flight Suits. 

The prospective member is within AF standards, so essentially he could choose from any of them.   I truly hope that National does something about it, it's confusing even to me and I've read all the interim change letters.   Well thought out changes to the Corporate uniform should change its designation to the ACU (Amy Courter Uniform).

NATO conference, okay, that's funny.  At least we get more stuff done.

You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PMTherefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Great idea, Kach.  But please, no silver sleeve braid, blue AF officer epaulets, blue plastic nametag or metal officer rank insignia.  Just grey CAP officer epaulets, grey CAP nametag, and the standard blue officer sleeve braid.  Like you said, one team, one uniform. 

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarted, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

So how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.  (I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PMSo how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.

Ideally, that's how it would be on both the Air Force and corporate uniforms.  However, if the Air Force won't allow it on the Air Force uniform, why should it be allowed on the corporate uniform?  The goal here is uniformity.  Right now, when CAP members in both the Air Force and CAP corporate service dress uniforms congregate, it looks like a meeting of two different organizations.  Something needs to be done about that. 

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PM(I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

I agree with you there.  SDF's are more a part of the military than CAP is, yet they don't get the privilige of wearing the "U.S." cutouts like CAP does.  For years, CAP officers wore the "CAP" cutouts on the service dress coat, and I'm not sure why a change was made to the "U.S." cutouts worn today.  The "CAP" cutouts are nice and distinctive.  Here's what I'd like to see:

--"CAP" cutouts on the Air Force and CAP Corporate service dress coats
--large metal officer rank insignia on the Air Force and CAP Corporate service dress coat

The Air Force will probably never allow it, though (and after Tony Pineda's letter to Congress, may make CAP wear lime green epaulets).   ::)

Quote from: ♠1 on October 06, 2007, 12:24:27 AM
The Air Force will probably never allow it, though (and after Tony Pineda's letter to Congress, may make CAP wear lime green epaulets).   ::)

Hot Pink :P

Although actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 06, 2007, 12:27:20 AMAlthough actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Right, and CAP officers aren't even commissioned... they're appointed (and by CAP, not the United States).  So why the "U.S." cutouts? 

The source of officer appointment is CAP, so "CAP" cutouts are the most appropriate for the CAP uniform.   

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 05, 2007, 09:26:31 PM
You know, we actually have an opportunity here.

The USAF is scrapping the McPeak-3-Button uniform in the near future.  The new uniform will be called the "Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform." and will feature a 4-button front, traditional military lapels, and a belt around the jacket.  It will be an AF blue version of the old "Pinks and greens" AAF uniform, basically.

Hap Arnold is as much a part of OUR heritage as he is part of the Air Force's.  Hap Arnold's decision to arm CAP planes was the key command decision in winning the battle on the coasts, and also was the decision that brought us into the Air Force as an auxiliary. Were it not for that decision, we probably would not exist as an organization today.

As it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

Therefore, when the Air Force goes to the Arnold Heritage uniform, why not have CAP go to a corporate version of the Arnold Heritage uniform?  Make it sufficiently different so that the AF would consider it a corporate uniform, but similar enough so people know we are on the same team, and celebrate the same heritage.

And it would be for all officers.  One team, one uniform.

Sir.

Isn't that exactly what we did with the TPU? A Corporate version of the Air Force Service uniform?

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Sir, is 'retarded' the word you really want to use there in reference to a UNIFORM ITEM ?

Quote from: JThemann on October 06, 2007, 01:41:33 AM

Quote from: ♠1 on October 05, 2007, 10:36:58 PM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:32:56 PM
Amen.  Only can we fix my pet peeve?   Slip on Epaulets???  I'd be perfectly happy to wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets, but the sleeves look retarded, no even worse than retarded, like some bad Hollywood B-movie uniform put together by people who know no better, and don't care enough to do research.

Well, the epaulets may look retarded (in my opinion, any color other than blue is retarded), but at least the corporate service dress uniform would match the AF blue  service dress uniform worn by CAP personnel.  What CAP needs is uniformity when it comes to the dress uniforms. 

Sir, is 'retarded' the word you really want to use there in reference to a UNIFORM ITEM ?

Ahhh... no offense intended toward the mentally handicapped.  You are quite correct, the term I am looking for is more akin to "criminally stupid."   To be honest, I don't actually have much problem with the TPU minus the coat.  The aviator shirt w/ Air Force pants, et al looks fine, although I think the embroidered CAP on the epaulet sleeve is sufficient  enough to forgo the gray and stick to an Air Force shade of blue.  (But after maroon, who can complain right?)

Quote from: ♠1 on October 06, 2007, 12:33:18 AM

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 06, 2007, 12:27:20 AMAlthough actually, the SDF's are great examples.  The source of their commisions are the state, ergo, no US.

Right, and CAP officers aren't even commissioned... they're appointed (and by CAP, not the United States).  So why the "U.S." cutouts? 

The source of officer appointment is CAP, so "CAP" cutouts are the most appropriate for the CAP uniform.   

OK, this may be "urban legend" so be warned.  I was told by our then Wing CC that the US was added to the CAP service coat (AF Style) by order of General Fogleman (sp?), who was then USAF Chief of Staff.  He did this as a way to recognize CAP as part of the AF ("total force" you know).

Disclaimer:   I was only told this once by my Wing CC, and have never heard it again from any other source, so I can't confirm it is accurate.  But having said that, I do trust this former Wing CC, and IIRC he told me he heard it at the NB meeting where it was announced.

Quote from: Falshrmjgr on October 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PM
So how about normal pin-on rank, and CAP cutouts.  That *should* be distinctive enough.  (I've never liked the US cutouts, wearing the US cutout has traditionally been to show the source of rank.  US on Disk = Enlisted Military US Cutout = Commisioned Military.  CAP Cutout = CAP Officer.  Simple no?

That's exactly how it used to be on our Service Coats, prior to the infamous maroon shoulder marks.  The pin-on rank was taken away from us at roughly the same time the AF blue shoulder marks were taken from our shirts.  The maroon shoulder marks were mandated to wear on "all outer garments" (careless wording which actually lead to a member showing up with maroon epaulets on his field jacket!!).

Just for you uniform historians, briefly there was a maroon CAP "loop" that was a narrow band of maroon material with silver edges and "CAP" embroidered on it.  This was to be worn on the Service Coat with the pin on rank insignia.  It lasted only a brief time and was replaced by the mandate that the shirt epaulets were to be worn on the Service Coat in lieu of the pin-on rank.  This in itself (besides looking horrible) was not easily accomplished since the shirt shoulder marks were designed to slip over the narrow epaulet on the shirt, not the wider ones on the coat.

The bottom line is that it was a horrible time for all of us.  To drift just slightly more off-topic (then I'll behave, I promise), we were holding a Wing Commander's Call at a restaurant once when I was Squadron CC.  We had a salad bar lunch as part of our meeting.  So we all went through the line together with our maroon shoulder marks on.  Once our meeting began, our Wing CC told us that he overheard some folks in the restaurant say, "The Salvation Army must be having a meeting here."   :-[

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not seeing an alternative.

Much as I like to wear the USAF uniform, and I consider it an honor to do so, I think that we should ALL be in ONE uniform.  This will mean that one of two possible outcomes must happen:

1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

2.  The entire CAP officer corps should transition to a corporate uniform, which is styled to match the USAF uniform, but clearly different enough to set CAP officers apart from USAF officers.

To Thiemann:  Yes, this WAS the goal of the TPU.  Unfortunately, the TPU ended up looking more Navy than Air Force.

That's why I said we have a new opportunity to fix this uniform thing once and for all when the AF transitions to the Arnold Heritage uniform.

I don't want to get bogged down in details about the uniform.  I'd rather like to see if my idea is acceptable as a solution to the problem of having 117 authorized uniforms for CAP.

QuoteAs it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

As big of a fan of CAP as I am, I think this is a major league stetch.

And, to return to the topic,

Quote1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

Not impossible, especially given the example of the CG Aux, which wears almost indistinguishable uniforms with no specific weight requirements.  Perhaps since the CG Aux is actually pretty well integrated into major CG programs they're more willing to cut some slack on this issue.  In other words, we're useful enough to them, that they don't really care what we're wearing.

Perhaps the AF will eventually realize that while CAP isn't essential to any of their operations, it would be better for the public to see us in AF-style uniforms and get what benefit they can of CAP-associated public relations than be a stickler about what we're wearing, especially when 90% of them never see a CAP person during their entire career. 

If I am not mistaken, the Heritage Uniform's epaulets are sewn at the edge with a "cross pattern," one won't be able to slide shoulder marks on them, at least, not normal sized ones.

Quote from: RiverAux on October 06, 2007, 03:34:27 AM

QuoteAs it was, CAP planes simply overwhelmed the U-Boats, and forced them to withdraw beyond our range.  That meant they could not attack at heavy ship traffic points near our ports, and made the convoy tactics succesful.

CAP won the battle along the Atlantic and Gulf casts, and helped win the Battle of the Atlantic.

As big of a fan of CAP as I am, I think this is a major league stetch.

And, to return to the topic,

Quote1.  The USAF will have to compromise on weight, and permit chubby rascals to wear the USAF uniform with distinctive insignia, and CAP members will have to compromise on grooming, and lose their beards.  Then we can all wear the USAF uniform.  This is SO not likely to happen.

Not impossible, especially given the example of the CG Aux, which wears almost indistinguishable uniforms with no specific weight requirements.  Perhaps since the CG Aux is actually pretty well integrated into major CG programs they're more willing to cut some slack on this issue.  In other words, we're useful enough to them, that they don't really care what we're wearing.

Perhaps the AF will eventually realize that while CAP isn't essential to any of their operations, it would be better for the public to see us in AF-style uniforms and get what benefit they can of CAP-associated public relations than be a stickler about what we're wearing, especially when 90% of them never see a CAP person during their entire career. 

Actually, CAP is the force that turned the battle along the coasts.

We did not fly armed patrols until, I think, April of 1943.  By July the U-Boats were not anywhere along the coasts.  They had moved out to sea, and CAP planes were re-directed to other missions.

CAP attacked 57 subs, and sank two.  This is impressive only of one considers that we only were in the battle as an armed participant for about 3 months, the last month of which we had basicly no enemy contact, since they had already pulled out of range.  That means there were 57 attacks and 2 sinkings (known) in about 2 months.  That's an attack on a U-Boat, somewhere, every day, on average.

That is a tempo of operations that the U-Boat commanders had not eperienced.  The reason for this success was simply numbers.  We had hundreds of little planes, but only a handful of big warbirds.  When the little planes could succesfully attack, the U-Boats had to withdraw out of range.

I don't know where you got your pre-commissioning training, River, but at Army OCS I learned that if you force an enemy to retreat from his position, you put that battle in the "Win " column!

Quote from: Major Carrales on October 06, 2007, 03:41:39 AM
If I am not mistaken, the Heritage Uniform's epaulets are sewn at the edge with a "cross pattern," one won't be able to slide shoulder marks on them, at least, not normal sized ones.

Great point, Maj Carrales.  I think that "CAP" cutouts on the lapel and metal officer rank insignia on the shoulders would be appropriate for the AF Heritage Uniform.  Very similar to that of the Air Force, but distinctive enough to distinguish auxiliary personnel from AF personnel. 

I am not sure what the final version of the Arnold Heritage uniform will look like, and I am sure that stitching the epaulets of the jacket will make it real hard for the AF officers to pin their rank on.

Joe, if you have any pix or information about the Heritage uniform, can you send it to me?  All that I have seen are some photos of the test uniforms, and some of the test uniforms had the choker collar like the Marines wear, and was called the Billy Mitchell Heritage Uniform.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on October 06, 2007, 02:15:38 PM
I am not sure what the final version of the Arnold Heritage uniform will look like, and I am sure that stitching the epaulets of the jacket will make it real hard for the AF officers to pin their rank on.

Joe, if you have any pix or information about the Heritage uniform, can you send it to me?  All that I have seen are some photos of the test uniforms, and some of the test uniforms had the choker collar like the Marines wear, and was called the Billy Mitchell Heritage Uniform.

Voila!!!

http://www.airforcetimes.com/projects/flash/2007_03_16_afuniforms/

Even an "interactive 360 degree" view, plus of olders styles.

Thanks, Joe.  It is significantly different from the test uniform I saw.

Of course, how exactly do you create a "CAP Heritage Uniform?"  It won't be as simple as adding insignia (since that would still be a USAF suit, and therefore off limits to the fat 'n fuzzies?

Quote from: Dragoon on October 09, 2007, 01:55:23 PM
Of course, how exactly do you create a "CAP Heritage Uniform?"  It won't be as simple as adding insignia (since that would still be a USAF suit, and therefore off limits to the fat 'n fuzzies?

I'd go back to a khaki based suit - it's removed from current AF and hearkens back to our glory days.

The 1505 or 1550 uniform from the 60's is what's being discussed. It's the same basic uniform worn in the 1940's just different material, not a different shade. It could be worn with the OD service coat, also worn during the 40's. Insignia was the CAP cutout worn on the left collar, and grade insignia worn on the right. Shoulder patches if required would be the Florida Wing style with the wing name on the rocker above the patch. Rather than the khaki belt worn in the 40's the AF blue belt of the 60's would be worn along with blue flight with grade rather than the CAP "eagle" as now worn or the blue service hat.
The only problem:  Cadets would still be in the AF blue uniform.

Quote from: BillB on October 09, 2007, 02:32:27 PM
The 1505 or 1550 uniform from the 60's is what's being discussed. It's the same basic uniform worn in the 1940's just different material, not a different shade. It could be worn with the OD service coat, also worn during the 40's. Insignia was the CAP cutout worn on the left collar, and grade insignia worn on the right. Shoulder patches if required would be the Florida Wing style with the wing name on the rocker above the patch. Rather than the khaki belt worn in the 40's the AF blue belt of the 60's would be worn along with blue flight with grade rather than the CAP "eagle" as now worn or the blue service hat.
The only problem:  Cadets would still be in the AF blue uniform.

Do you have an image with these color shades?

I'd go with the "CAP Overseas Patch" instead of FLWG.  Besides being more heritage, it's just a clearer patch design.  It's also in stock.  If people wanted, it'd be easy enough to fashion a wing/region rocker to go with it.

AF blue tie and AF blue belt to go with the flight cap - no need to reinvent the wheel.  Ditch the bus driver hat - the checkbook you save might be your own.

Quote from: Dragoon on October 09, 2007, 01:55:23 PM
Of course, how exactly do you create a "CAP Heritage Uniform?"  It won't be as simple as adding insignia (since that would still be a USAF suit, and therefore off limits to the fat 'n fuzzies?

Check out "UNiform Changes" and I discuss a more specific plan.  In the immortal words of Wilbur Wright:  "Might fly, might not, but maybe we should try."

Quote from: ddelaney103 on October 09, 2007, 03:31:03 PM

Quote from: BillB on October 09, 2007, 02:32:27 PM
The 1505 or 1550 uniform from the 60's is what's being discussed. It's the same basic uniform worn in the 1940's just different material, not a different shade. It could be worn with the OD service coat, also worn during the 40's. Insignia was the CAP cutout worn on the left collar, and grade insignia worn on the right. Shoulder patches if required would be the Florida Wing style with the wing name on the rocker above the patch. Rather than the khaki belt worn in the 40's the AF blue belt of the 60's would be worn along with blue flight with grade rather than the CAP "eagle" as now worn or the blue service hat.
The only problem:  Cadets would still be in the AF blue uniform.

Do you have an image with these color shades?

I'd go with the "CAP Overseas Patch" instead of FLWG.  Besides being more heritage, it's just a clearer patch design.  It's also in stock.  If people wanted, it'd be easy enough to fashion a wing/region rocker to go with it.

AF blue tie and AF blue belt to go with the flight cap - no need to reinvent the wheel.  Ditch the bus driver hat - the checkbook you save might be your own.

Nothing that color currently on eBay, but did see these:

Civil-Air-Patrol-hat (http://cgi.ebay.com/CAP-Civil-Air-Patrol-hat-WWII-cadet-khaki-red-piping_W0QQitemZ180165922110QQihZ008QQcategoryZ4729QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

US-CIVIL-AIR-PATROL-EPAULETTE (http://cgi.ebay.com/US-CIVIL-AIR-PATROL-EPAULETTE-CIRCLET-UNAUTHORIZED-PR_W0QQitemZ110178658517QQihZ001QQcategoryZ135QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Whoa!

The hat looks like its from WWII, cadet.

The epaulet is one of the maroon tabs that lasted a short time before the whole epaulet went maroon.