Vanguard and Curry Voucher Program

[JC004]

From whom are you quoting "price gouging?"

Some of the older Vanguard prices I have are, for example: BDU cap (9.90), nametape (3.55), nameplate (3.20), flight cap device (5.80), BDU belt (8.65)...  Somewhere, I have relatively recent and also post-Bookstore era (those were close to Bookstore prices - like 55-cent ribbons).

[Holding Pattern]

I'll also mention that it is very much worth googling for coupon codes before placing a vanguard order. I recently saved 15% on a significant order there a month ago or so.

[PA Guy]

What about the Flight Cap on that list...... Also we can no longer honestly day that the BDU is optional. Encampment packing lists are out. The one I have today calls for 1-3 sets of BDU. I realize that I will hear that Encampment is optional, but if a Cadet has any aspiration to be a Cadet Officer thay must go to Encampment.

What would you consider a reasonable expectation of what uniforms, equipment etc. CAP should furnish to new cadets?

[CAPDCCMOM]

I am not sure what we should furnish new Cadets, when retention is such an issue. We all know how many uniforms are lost to a closet, or worse to a dumpster when a Cadet quits. Throwing money and material at a problem has never worked. What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products. Natural competition should reduce prices and improve service. Simple business 101: if I can get goods and services for less cost and more quickly from another company I will. The CVP in and of itself is not a bad thing, a monopoly is. As to the point of the language of 39-1, it is correct, the regulation has termed BDU optional. However, in the spirit and practice, the BDU is required for many events and activities that a Cadet would be drawn to and interested in. At times Perception is more important than the reality.

[Spam]

Hear, Hear!

"Required" or not, I view the blues uniform as more optional than the BDUs. After all, most of the best activities from a cadet standpoint occur when wearing BDUs or "other than blues":  O flights, emergency services, and 97 percent of encampments, for a start (blues at our Wing encampment are worn once for graduation practice, and once for graduation, else, BDUs). Many flight academies and special acts (e.g. gliders, E-Tech, etc. etc.) wear golf shirts and shorts, and don't even wear BDUs, much less blues.

I think I'd vote to make BDUs the main uniform, and blues an optional not required until the Wright Brothers award or something... and to break the Vanguard monopoly, of course, but we seem to have sold our souls on that one.

V/R,
Spam

[lordmonar]

What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products. Natural competition should reduce prices and improve service. Simple business 101: if I can get goods and services for less cost and more quickly from another company I will. The CVP in and of itself is not a bad thing, a monopoly is.

It is not quite that simple.
I would be the first to agree with you that fair an open competition should.....should create better products and service.
IF.....it was worth someone's effort.

Even in the Hock Shop Days......he was only reselling stuff he bought from V-guard....and was out source in his embroidery work.   And lets be completely honest...there was problems with his quality too.

My point is that Vanguard Monopoly is/was there for a reason.   Maybe not a good one....but it was not simply to just line Vanguards pocket at our expense.

Open competition with other insignia providers may or may not lower their prices.

As for uniform prices.....Vanguard does not have a monopoly on that....so any time you complain about that......that is NOT a monopoly issue...that is a fair and open trade issue.

[CAPDCCMOM]

I have another point to make on the optional vs. required definition on the BDU. When we tell a Cadet or a Senior that a BDU uniform is "required" for an activity an an event, that uniform is no longer optional. We are also thereby telling Cadets and Seniors that if they wish to participate in said event they must have the BDU uniform. Just by that language, in spite of being able to recite 39-1 chapter and verse, that makes BDU a requirement for full participation in CAP.

[THRAWN]

I have another point to make on the optional vs. required definition on the BDU. When we tell a Cadet or a Senior that a BDU uniform is "required" for an activity an an event, that uniform is no longer optional. We are also thereby telling Cadets and Seniors that if they wish to participate in said event they must have the BDU uniform. Just by that language, in spite of being able to recite 39-1 chapter and verse, that makes BDU a requirement for full participation in CAP.

Horsehockey. Open CAPM 39-1, read and understand section 1.2.1. If it doesnt meet those conditions it cannot be required.

[JC004]

Field uniforms are required for Emergency Services.  There are certainly circumstances for which a field uniform may be required, and if it cannot be produced, the cadet cannot properly or safely participate.  Showing up with a service uniform and a manual won't cut it for a mission in rough terrain. 

Emergency Services is not mandatory for cadet program participation, but they can certainly be required to wear certain items in order to be able to participate.

[THRAWN]

Field uniforms are required for Emergency Services.  There are certainly circumstances for which a field uniform may be required, and if it cannot be produced, the cadet cannot properly or safely participate.  Showing up with a service uniform and a manual won't cut it for a mission in rough terrain. 

Emergency Services is not mandatory for cadet program participation, but they can certainly be required to wear certain items in order to be able to participate.

Covered in the voluntary language in the reg. Want your troops in boots and utes? Either provide them or make that an optional meeting night.

[JC004]

nobody was talking about meetings.  They were talking about activities.  These activities have required items; they are just not required activities. 

[Ned]

What I do think should happen is to remove the Vanguard monopoly of Civil Air Patrol Products.

I can't say that doesn't sound reasonable.  Heck, "monopolies" sound downright un-American.

Not to derail this thread further, but the whole VG issue is often misunderstood. 

Anyone is free to buy AF-style uniforms from anyone in the world.  I don't buy uniforms from VG for the very reasons you have pointed out - they are more expensive than I can get them at AF clothing sales.

VG does have a license to produce CAP-specific items like insignia, patches, etc.  And that agreement is a "win-win" for CAP members.  In exchange for the license, VG is obligated to make and carry the full line of CAP insignia, including a lot of insignia that would not otherwise be available.  For example, pretty much anyone with an embroidery machine in their garage could make and sell CAP nametapes for the BDU/BBDU uniforms at a price likely to be cheaper than VG.  There is probably a market that amounts to 100,000 units a year for that product, and as you point out natural competition would help keep prices down for the average member.

But let's talk about something like a Master CDI badge.  It is a moderately complicated insignia involving metal casting and some enamel.  And I'd be surprised if anyone could sell more than a couple of dozen a year.  Restated, no commercial vendor could possibly make and sell them economically - they'd essentially have to be custom-made each time and would cost over $100.  Multiply that by all of dozens and dozens of "low density" insignia, and you get some idea of the problem.  As a business model, VG makes money on nametapes to cover losses on less popular items.

If we lifted vendor restrictions, it would become a quality control "race to the bottom" as off-shore manufacturers reduced quality to reduce prices.  This is particularly acute when they do most of their selling to unsophisticated buyers like young cadets and parents who do not fully appreciate the importance of quality insignia.

And remember, licensed vendors is actually the norm in this area.  My kids were Scouts, and we could only buy uniforms and accessories from authorized sellers and manufacturers.  Because the Scouts need to control quality and prices, just as we do.  Heck, I can't buy logo wear for my favorite sports teams from anyone other than licensed sellers for exactly the same reasons.  Ditto for essentially every group that has uniforms and insignia from the Knights of Columbus to Camp Fire and everyone in between.

CAP tried producing and selling our insignia for many years through CAPMart and the Bookstore - and lost spectacular amounts of money doing so.  (Dues money, BTW).  Since running an insignia supply business is not one of our core competencies, we wisely held an open bidding competition and VG won.  The license comes up for renewal every few years, so VG has every motive to maintain reasonable prices and service levels.

[NC Hokie]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Watch out NC!! the 39-1 police will be here any moment reciting for you.

[lordmonar]

That was the second most ignored rule in 39-1.

[CAPDCCMOM]

What was the first? The regulation in now, in practice, incorrect. Let's face it the uniform is mandatory

[lordmonar]

What was the first? The regulation in now, in practice, incorrect. Let's face it the uniform is mandatory

it has always been mandatory because it's has always been mandated at encampment.   

The first most ignored rule is "this regulation is mandatory and no deviations are allowed"

[THRAWN]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

[lordmonar]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

The rules are not clear.   The rules have changed.  And yes...the Curry Link is the "regulatory" cite for the assertion that that the BDUs are now required for all cadets.

[LSThiker]

Clobber all of the BDU stuff since it's not required, and you save a bunch...

Wrong.  The BDU is now required for Achievement 1.  Read line item 2 at http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/new_cadet_help/curry-blues-vouchers/

This is supported by CAPR 52-16 5-2.a.(2) which states that cadets must, "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly," in order to promote.  That uniform used to be the blues, but it is now the BDU.

What is the regulatory cite for that assertion. It sure isnt the Curry link. The rules are clear as to the type or required uniform and ita not the BDU.

The rules are not clear.   The rules have changed.  And yes...the Curry Link is the "regulatory" cite for the assertion that that the BDUs are now required for all cadets.

Now there is a conundrum.  CAPM 39-1 clearly states the only uniform a cadet is required to own is the short-sleeve blues.  CAPR 52-16 states that cadets must own and wear that uniform properly before promotion.  However, the "Curry" link uses a few choice words that complicate the matter.  For example:

Squadron tries to outfit the cadet with uniform items, using local supplies, if able. Cadets purchase the remaining BDU articles through Vanguard or their vendor of choice

Since cadets will need to be in uniform to earn the Curry and qualify for the uniform voucher, the BDUs are recommended for new cadets working towards their first achievement

The way I would read the first "Curry" link quote is that the cadet is required to purchase the BDU specific items (nametapes, CAP tapes, wing patch, etc), while the squadron outfits the BDUs to the cadet if they have the ability.  But what happens if the squadron does not have the BDUs to outfit?  Clearly CAPM 39-1 states that a squadron commander cannot require a cadet to have anything beyond the short-sleeve blues. 

The second link quote is a bit different.  Obviously, if the squadron has the BDUs, they issue those out.  However, if they do not but they have a set of blues, then go ahead and use those instead.  But again, what happens if a squadron does not have either of those?  It falls back on the CAPM 39-1 citation.  But now you cannot promote the cadet due to uniforms.  So we get into a cycle. 

I think the reality is that a lot of squadron commanders will just simply promote the cadet to C/Amn so that way he/she can receive his/her free uniform even if the cadet does not have a complete set of BDUs (which of course happened before the new program). 

Overall, I think NHQ needs to provide a bit more guidance or completely rescind the CAPM 39-1 requirement, which might make things a bit more complicated in the long run.  Of course, there is a work around (but may not necessarily be "NHQ approved".  That is, if possible, have the squadron host a few "community BDUs" that have the name "CADET" that are issued out for the promotion so that way the cadet can receive his/her blues.  After they get the blues, they give the BDUs back.  Then it is up to the cadet to purchase a complete BDU set.

I understand that BDUs are essentially required for encampment.  However, let us analyze an example where a cadet is not really required to have BDUs immediately.  Essentially, a cadet is not really required to own BDUs until he/she goes to encampment or chooses to do ES.  If the cadet does not go to encampment until his 2nd year in the program (perhaps due to cost), then he does not really need BDUs until then.  So the family, which may have a financial hardship, can spread out the burden of purchasing the uniform over those following months, which also would allow him/her to save/work for the cost of the encampment. 

With the new program, the upfront costs have gone up, which may discourage people from joining.  However, I do think the new program is superior to the old program.  In addition, I definitely agree with Ned's argument that the vast majority of purchased uniforms now sit in a closet, trash, surplus store, or Goodwill type store.