Reason for CAP mandating wear of the American flag patch on the BDU

[brasda91]

I feel strongly that we should wear the U.S. Flag on our uniform but not reversed.  That needs to be reserved for combat forces.

The reason we wear the reversed flag is because the Union should be closest to the heart, hence the reversed flag on the right shoulder.  It has nothing to do with combat.

Uh, no that's not quite it.

The union of the flag (the part with the stars in it) is always supposed to be going forward.
So if you wear the flag on your left shoulder it would face one way and if you wore it on the right side it would face the other way.

Same rule applies to aircraft and "vessels" too.  Basic rule, if it moves the union should be going forward.

You're saying the same thing I said.  And yes I have heard that the Union should be closest to the heart.

For flag patches worn on uniforms, the blue star field always faces towards the front, with the red and white stripes behind. Think of the flag, not as a patch, but as a loose flag attached to the Soldier's arm like a flag pole. As the Soldier moves forward, the red and white stripes will flow to the back.  As the proponent for standardization and authorization of heraldry items within the Department of Defense, the Institute of Heraldry addresses the apparent oddity of the reverse flag patch by stating, "When worn on the right sleeve, it is considered proper to reverse the design so that the union is at the observer's right to suggest that the flag is flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward."

[DNall]

The union of the flag (the part with the stars in it) is always supposed to be going forward. So if you wear the flag on your left shoulder it would face one way and if you wore it on the right side it would face the other way.

This is the RULE for it, and the official symbolism behind the rule. Some LE agencies wear a flag over the right chest pocket, and that's a standard flag, which is correct, and would place the union/field away from the heart. That's all there is to it.

The issue with combat is that the flag on mil uniforms is that it's an overseas flag worn by troops in theater with multiple allies so you can identify who is on your side despite the dif uniforms (as if we know all the flags). It is breaking the rule to wear it domestically in time of peace. The Army chose to have all their people wear it to demonstrate they're all at war & solidarity with troops in the field. The AF didn't choose to break with tradition & make up symbolic tradition as they go, so most people don't think CAP should do so either.

[Nick]

Oh boy, this is what I get for coming into a conversation late in the game ...

I've been told that the reason CAP mandated wear of the American flag patch on the BDU was because the ultramarine blue nametapes and insignia weren't enough to clash against the woodland camouflage, so they needed another contrasting color.

Can anyone confirm this? 

I love it when I say something sarcastically ... then it gets quoted as an actual statement and then someone goes off and tries to verify it.  Dude, I really wasn't serious when I said that.

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ.

Yep... CAPM 39-1 covers the policy from their end, and AFI 10-2701 has similar policy, specifically "The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members." to cover it from their end.

Well...I have been part of AFJROTC and AFROTC....and as far as I know...there is NO definitive regulation on how to wear those uniforms.

AFOATSI 36-2001 Chapter 5 for AFJROTC, and AFROTCI 36-2008 for AFROTC.

[DNall]

Well...I have been part of AFJROTC and AFROTC....and as far as I know...there is NO definitive regulation on how to wear those uniforms.

AFOATSI 36-2001 Chapter 5 for AFJROTC, and AFROTCI 36-2008 for AFROTC.

I think he just meant the wide lattitude local commanders have to add/take away stuff. Much like our Wg/CC have some latitude on things like cords & junk like that.

[Nick]

I think he just meant the wide lattitude local commanders have to add/take away stuff. Much like our Wg/CC have some latitude on things like cords & junk like that.

I think it's more a symptom of detached locations without anyone watching versus official latitude to modify the standard... kinda like M*A*S*H.

[DNall]

No doubt, as is the case in CAP to our detriment, but I thnk there is some lattitude for school ribbons, sabre cords, & junk like that. Moreso in JROTC than the college side. Pat may not be fully aware of this, but those regs you mentioned were significantly revised recently. AFROTC really stripped down the ribbond big time. You can;t even wear all your active duty ribbons. It's downright McPeak looking. JROTC on the other hand tend to look like 20 star admirals of Nebraska. That's more a function of rewarding short attention spans, which CAP does a lot of too, unfortunately it seems to carry over with the adults as well.

[Major Lord]

Oh boy, this is what I get for coming into a conversation late in the game ...

I've been told that the reason CAP mandated wear of the American flag patch on the BDU was because the ultramarine blue nametapes and insignia weren't enough to clash against the woodland camouflage, so they needed another contrasting color.

Can anyone confirm this? 

I love it when I say something sarcastically ... then it gets quoted as an actual statement and then someone goes off and tries to verify it.  Dude, I really wasn't serious when I said that.

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ.

Yep... CAPM 39-1 covers the policy from their end, and AFI 10-2701 has similar policy, specifically "The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members." to cover it from their end.

Well...I have been part of AFJROTC and AFROTC....and as far as I know...there is NO definitive regulation on how to wear those uniforms.

AFOATSI 36-2001 Chapter 5 for AFJROTC, and AFROTCI 36-2008 for AFROTC.

You have a gift for research! I have seen many-a- post where CAP "old timers" deny that a regulation exists and challenges your authority to deny it! When caught, they fall back on the "standard practice" argument. Out F***'n standing work! Do you concur that we added the added the flag without USAF approval? I still have not seen any proof to the contrary.


Semper Vigilante!
Capt. Lord

[Nick]

You have a gift for research! I have seen many-a- post where CAP "old timers" deny that a regulation exists and challenges your authority to deny it! When caught, they fall back on the "standard practice" argument. Out F***'n standing work! Do you concur that we added the added the flag without USAF approval? I still have not seen any proof to the contrary.

I've come across a lot of regs since being in the game, and I remember where I saw them because I know I'll use them one day. I honestly don't know about the flag ... I suspect it was presented to CAP-USAF during a staff meeting one day, they shrugged and said it didn't matter to them, so they implemented it.

[DNall]

I honestly don't know about the flag ... I suspect it was presented to CAP-USAF during a staff meeting one day, they shrugged and said it didn't matter to them, so they implemented it.

Nice to have that due dilligence staffing done so efficiently. 

Really, there won't be a formal AF publication to the world saying they've authorized something. The only thing you'll see is NB approve it & then down the road it'll just appear in regs or a policy letter stating phase-in/out dates or whatver. Technically there should be a memo on file from the AETC/CC on file at NHQ, but I'm not promising you they kept a copy or that it ever existed in the first place. Personally, if I'm waiting on an approval from a LtGen & his aid calls to say it's been cleared, I'm not going to keep pestering the the very busy MAJCOM/CC to sign a CYA memo to keep on file just in case the uniform inquisition comes trying to find out who's to blame for what CAP looks like.

[lordmonar]

Oh boy, this is what I get for coming into a conversation late in the game ...

I've been told that the reason CAP mandated wear of the American flag patch on the BDU was because the ultramarine blue nametapes and insignia weren't enough to clash against the woodland camouflage, so they needed another contrasting color.

Can anyone confirm this? 

I love it when I say something sarcastically ... then it gets quoted as an actual statement and then someone goes off and tries to verify it.  Dude, I really wasn't serious when I said that.

Actually, the 39-1 (1-1) clearly spells out that the authority is vested in the CAP CC and USAF HQ.

Yep... CAPM 39-1 covers the policy from their end, and AFI 10-2701 has similar policy, specifically "The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members." to cover it from their end.

Well...I have been part of AFJROTC and AFROTC....and as far as I know...there is NO definitive regulation on how to wear those uniforms.

AFOATSI 36-2001 Chapter 5 for AFJROTC, and AFROTCI 36-2008 for AFROTC.

You have a gift for research! I have seen many-a- post where CAP "old timers" deny that a regulation exists and challenges your authority to deny it! When caught, they fall back on the "standard practice" argument. Out F***'n standing work! Do you concur that we added the added the flag without USAF approval? I still have not seen any proof to the contrary.


Semper Vigilante!
Capt. Lord

Who are you comment on?

As far as I know the USAF did approve the change to add the U.S. Flag.  That was so long ago that I did not think that was even in dispute.  All I was saying is that there is next to zero chance, at this point in time, to ever find out why or what they thought of about it.  Like I said....CAP NB sends up the proposed uniform chance under a staff summery sheet (basiclly a blue folder with a routing slip stabled to it).  CAP-USAF signs concure/nonconure, the may or may not add comments and then they send it accross the hall to CAP CC and it's done.

I did comment that the only regulation or AFI that says the USAF has approval authority on USAF uniforms is a CAP regulation.  The law governing the USAF dose they SECAF can designate who can wear the USAF uniform....but another law says that just about any organisation may wear military uniforms provided they where a patch on the shoulder (like we did for year until the new service coat came out)....I wounder if that change was well researched to insure it did not violate the law.

Anyways...the flag is part of 39-1 has been for a long time.  I'm sure if the the USAF objected they would have said something by now.

[Major Lord]

Capt. Harris,

There was a policy letter in December of 2005 issued by Gen Pineda, authorizing flags, and stating that the 39-1 would be changed to require flag wear. (Or words to that effect) The last version of the 39-1 that I have only allows flags on certain corporate uniforms: uniforms which are within the regulatory authority of CAP to change on their own initiative (arguably) If there is a copy of the 39-1 allowing/requiring flags on AF style uniforms( which would of course have to be approved by the ACTUAL Air Force) I am not aware of, and do not have a copy of this document. Since a copy of the 39-1 requiring the wear of flags on the AF style uniform has not been published ( to the best of my knowledge) the wear of the U.S. flag has not in fact been authorized by USAF. If you would care to share your documentation to the contrary, I would be delighted to review it. Oral traditions not withstanding, I would very much like to know that facts of the matter.

Anyone?

Capt. Lord

[Stonewall]

Here is a policy letter stating that the reverse flag will be worn on BDU and CAP distinctive field uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

As much as I don't care for wearing the flag on the uniform, if the boss says its so, then it must be so.

[Major Lord]

Here is a policy letter stating that the reverse flag will be worn on BDU and CAP distinctive field uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

As much as I don't care for wearing the flag on the uniform, if the boss says its so, then it must be so.

Right! Now where is that pesky 39-1 change?

Capt. Lord

[RiverAux]

We are the only official Auxiliary of any of the Armed Forces and since we are the Auxiliary of the USAF it is in our best interest to represent them accordingly.  

I think you forgot that there are two auxiliaries of the Armed Forces and CAP is the junior of the two.

[shorning]

Here is a policy letter stating that the reverse flag will be worn on BDU and CAP distinctive field uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

As much as I don't care for wearing the flag on the uniform, if the boss says its so, then it must be so.

Right! Now where is that pesky 39-1 change?

It will be there when it comes out.  For the time being, you have the policy letter.  Two words to remember:  "salute" and "execute".  They are different than "whine" and "complain".   Another catchy phrase?  "Lead by example".

[Stonewall]

Here is a policy letter stating that the reverse flag will be worn on BDU and CAP distinctive field uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

As much as I don't care for wearing the flag on the uniform, if the boss says its so, then it must be so.

Right! Now where is that pesky 39-1 change?

Capt. Lord

Listen, bro.  I don't want to wear the flag either.  But you must understand that interim policy letters are used in lieu of actual regulations until they can be updated accordingly.  Policies change all the time and they can't put out a complete manual everytime something small changes. 

A written policy or change to a regulation is much like an officer giving a lawful order.  Unless that order breaks a law or put your life or others in danger, then you just have to do, no matter how much you don't want to.  Again, it was hard for me to sew my wing patch back on as well as the flag, but we gotta do it.  Got it?  Don't fight it, unfortunately I'm right on this.

[Major Lord]

Here is a policy letter stating that the reverse flag will be worn on BDU and CAP distinctive field uniforms.

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2005_11_wear_of_American_flag.pdf

As much as I don't care for wearing the flag on the uniform, if the boss says its so, then it must be so.

Right! Now where is that pesky 39-1 change?

It will be there when it comes out.  For the time being, you have the policy letter.  Two words to remember:  "salute" and "execute".  They are different than "whine" and "complain".   Another catchy phrase?  "Lead by example".

Okay, the old timers agree that "shut up and do what you are told" is the best policy. ( Thats what made CAP the organization it is today....)  Lets see your regulatory justifcation. Based on the reponses I have seen, there is a tacit implication that CAP can change the military uniform on its own authority. I reject this presumption Ab initio. I am not whining and complaining. I am asking for a legal justification of an act that appears to be proscribed by public law and CAP regulations.

Capt. Lord

[MIKE]

Has it been more than 90 days since those ICLs were issued?  

[shorning]

I reject this presumption Ab initio. I am not whining and complaining. I am asking for a legal justification of an act that appears to be proscribed by public law and CAP regulations.

Then you're only following the changes in the uniform manual and not any of the policy letters?

[Major Lord]

I reject this presumption Ab initio. I am not whining and complaining. I am asking for a legal justification of an act that appears to be proscribed by public law and CAP regulations.

Then you're only following the changes in the uniform manual and not any of the policy letters?

Not at all! CAP is free to issue policy letters and uniform changes on its own authority for any Corporate Uniform. ( and other policies within its charter and authority) It does not appear that CAP has the legal authority to change the Uniform of the United States Air Force without their authority. I am asking for the written authority that must have been granted for CAP to do so. Following changes? I follow them very closely! If CAP issued a policy requiring you to arm all Cessnas with Ruger 10-22's and cabbages, would you carry it out or ask for clarification and legal justification? Thats just what I am doing.

Capt. Lord