TOO Much ado...

[shorning]

One person made a personnal attack asking about my record on safety.   

I must have missed it.  Who attacked you on your record on safety?

[Pylon]

Let me make an observation.  My thought on the matter is that there are probably so many posts about uniforms because uniforms are the single most frequently changed thing in Civil Air Patrol.  Every time a CAP member turns around, there's a new uniform, a change to a uniform, a new patch, a phased out patch, or some other change to the regulations.

In addition, a lot of members are confused on the uniform regulations.  CAPR 60-1, for example, is usually a lot more clear cut on matters of importance than CAPM 39-1.  The manual is confusing, and occassionally contradictory.  I'd expect sharp CAP members to pick up on that.

We talk about it because CAP keeps changing our uniforms much more frequent than our policies on flying, or cadet programs, or public affairs, or safety, or anything else.  If regulations on changes to Emergency Services Operations or Flight Management kept changing every two months with a stack of policy letters that could sink a battleship, I'd expect those respective sections of the forum to be bursting with varied opinions, questions, concerns, and complaints too.


Should we have more discussions on professional matters?  Safety?  Public Affairs?  Ideas sharing?  Curriculum sharing?   Moral Leadership?  Whatever your specialty area is?   YES!  Of course!   And I would love to see more people on here talking about their jobs, training for those jobs, things they've implemented at their unit, training and curriculum they've developed at the local level and more!  I think that's where the real value of this board kicks in.

Do I get frustrated over all the uniform stuff, too?  You bet.  I would love to leave my uniform as is and not change anything for the next 10 years.  But in the meantime, I'm firmly planted in reality and know that CAP will change uniform things and I'd like to stay on top of that so I can voice my opinion appropriately.

Both have their place. 

[Major Carrales]

They may have thought you were passing judgement.

Honestly, I expected people to offer reasons why uniforms were an important key to being in CAP.  I expected a less, for lack of better words, personal "attack" and more of a look at why that was.

I missed that one.  Have to show it to me.

The person who sent me the e-mail had some strong passions about uniforms and we resolved that issue off the board.    No hard feelings.

If something offends you, do you make a point of seeking it out? It's like hanging out with smokers, and then complaining about cigarette smoke. To the smokers, it doesn't fly, and may create other opinions of you (don't ask me what those opinions are, I don't know, just pointing it out).

I was not offended by the preponderance of UNIFROM topics, but I saw a trend and submitted it for commentary.  My conclusions on the matter is that UNIFORMs are the main point of contention.  Strange...something designed to show unit creating such division.  GO figure?!

We all "judge" to some degree, it is a part of the opinion process.  We "sit on a jury," or should, before we speak.  Still, there was no implied version of my opinion in the original post...only facts and a "'nuff said."  All judgement was supplied by those that replied.  

I'm sorry to hear this. I've seen a number of your posts on uniform matters, and you have raised some good ones. I believe that there were a few of your posts that have changed my personal outlook on uniform issues.

Thank you, that really means a lot to me.  Some of the discussions at the now defunct Civil Air Portal got bad.  There is a preoccupation with uniforms in these on line discussions.  This was actually triggered by a post I read at another forum that identified CAP as a group of "POSERS and PRETENDERS," they cited several comments and the preoccupation with "trying to look like the USAF" as one of their lynch pin points.

If the preoccupation with uniform issues is healthly or unhealthy remains to be seen.  I think pride in a uniform is ket to unity

Here are the main points that hilight the UNIFORM topics...

1) Gold Shirt Versus USAF Style/Corporate uniforms

2) Corporate Uniforms

3) wear of devices on Corportate uniforms

4) speculations on NEW uniforms

5) new badges and devices

6) Less badges and devices

7) height/weight issues

appropriate times for uniform wear

9) uniform viloations

10) submitting uniforms

11) specuation on USAF-CAP relationships based on UNIFORM POLICY

12) Flight Suits

13) fighting about all of the above

14) talk about the fighting we do about all of the above

15) POLICY LETTERS

That is a lot of issues...but what do posts ad infinitem solve?  I guess i woudl like to see more fruition from such talk.  But if even a fraction of that energy was used on other areas...imagine what could be acomplished.

I follow Trek as well, although I mostly just read the books. I don't participate on any of the boards, because I really haven't thought to do so. I may look into it.

The Official Startrek.com forums are the based.  Orginal Series or TNG?  Its all there, lots of different types...a place where you can specuate about uniforms and not have people come down on you.

Thanks,

Major Carrales

[Major_Chuck]

Well, Major C. you are right, there is an ungodly amount of discussion over  uniforms.  Some to the point where we've probably rehashed the same topic over and over and over but under different subject headings.

But, uniforms are what binds us together.  We all have to wear one version of it so it is the common thread (no pun intended...thread...uniforms) that we have.

I've heard the same gripe/concern from the guys that do Professional Development, or Cadet Programs, or Emergency Services.   Anymore I tend to gloss over the uniform threads unless something is said that peaks my interest.

[Major Carrales]

 Anymore I tend to gloss over the uniform threads unless something is said that peaks my interest.

That will probably be my recourse. 

Thanks,
Major Carrales

[DNall]

Most of those uniform conversations are interdisciplinary affairs that involve far more than uniforms. Also, I'd reaffirm the comments that the number of posts doesn't indicate teh relative level of importance. Just because things are important doesn't mean there are active issues that need to be discussed & fixed. I think you can easily look across CAP & see a braod lack of common sense in everything handed to us. Uniforms are just a reflection of that, and yes because of the commonality & side-effects it gains a synergy that drives the issue.

Anyway, how many times have I told you, if you don't care about the issue, don't read the thread & don't post a response. Nobody's forcing you to participate in a uniform thread. I'm sure you have better things to do with your CAP time than telling others how to spend theirs. If you have these aii-fire ciritcal issues that are priority number one & must be solved ASAP, do post them up. They'll get due attention, just like all the non-uniform productive posts do.

[Major Carrales]

Most of those uniform conversations are interdisciplinary affairs that involve far more than uniforms. Also, I'd reaffirm the comments that the number of posts doesn't indicate teh relative level of importance. Just because things are important doesn't mean there are active issues that need to be discussed & fixed. I think you can easily look across CAP & see a braod lack of common sense in everything handed to us. Uniforms are just a reflection of that, and yes because of the commonality & side-effects it gains a synergy that drives the issue.

Anyway, how many times have I told you, if you don't care about the issue, don't read the thread & don't post a response. Nobody's forcing you to participate in a uniform thread. I'm sure you have better things to do with your CAP time than telling others how to spend theirs. If you have these aii-fire ciritcal issues that are priority number one & must be solved ASAP, do post them up. They'll get due attention, just like all the non-uniform productive posts do.

If I may be so bold, that is the most disengenuious thing people post here.  That's like telling a person not to be involved in goverment or community if they don't like it.  It promotes apathy.

And, by the way, you are one of the worst ones to start a meshegas over uniform items.  Yes, you...Dennis the Menace 

In anycase, I consider this manner closed and have posted this only as a joke.  This conversation ended with my reply to CAP Sergeant's post.

It is been very educational for me.  Now it can be locked!

[DNall]

Well that's no fun. Come back on me & then want it locked? no fun at all.

I really do care about uniforms, as well as a short list of other items I'm interested in. And, I do like starting conversations that test my own limits & force me to challenge my own ideas so I can develop them further, and myself in the process. Anyone that knows me would be able to tell you from the first that I'm far from a wannabe idiot playing air force over here. I work VERY hard on a wide range of things in CAP, as you should know from the other things I'm passionate about.

I appreciate that some people are unhappy about the volume of uniform conversations, when there are so many problems in CAP & they'd like to redirect that energy to solving those. The thing is though, you don't get to decide what people care about & where they spend their time. They either don't want to work on those other issues, don't care, or are resigned to not being able to do anything about them - probably some other reasons too, but whatever.

If you want to post in a uniform thread or not, that's up to you, I don't care, but its pretty wrong to interupt those conversations to tell people what they care about isn't important & they should be talking about what you want to talk about instead. So like I said, post, don't post, whatever, but let people have their conversations & debates in peace. The process, if it ever gets anything done or not, makes us better.

[shorning]

It is been very educational for me.  Now it can be locked!

That's not how it works, slick.

[Major Carrales]

It is been very educational for me.  Now it can be locked!

That's not how it works, Sparky.

Ooooh, Sparky...I like that.

I know you sometimes miss things with the volume of forum posts you hit, but this is in response to "mikeylikey" who wanted the post closed...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1164.msg14789#msg14789

I protested a bit since I had felt the matter en re my statements wasn't yet resolved.  I have since reversed the position.  I know the "score" around here and how it works.

[Major Carrales]

Well that's no fun. Come back on me & then want it locked? no fun at all.

I really do care about uniforms, as well as a short list of other items I'm interested in. And, I do like starting conversations that test my own limits & force me to challenge my own ideas so I can develop them further, and myself in the process. Anyone that knows me would be able to tell you from the first that I'm far from a wannabe idiot playing air force over here. I work VERY hard on a wide range of things in CAP, as you should know from the other things I'm passionate about.

I appreciate that some people are unhappy about the volume of uniform conversations, when there are so many problems in CAP & they'd like to redirect that energy to solving those. The thing is though, you don't get to decide what people care about & where they spend their time. They either don't want to work on those other issues, don't care, or are resigned to not being able to do anything about them - probably some other reasons too, but whatever.

If you want to post in a uniform thread or not, that's up to you, I don't care, but its pretty wrong to interupt those conversations to tell people what they care about isn't important & they should be talking about what you want to talk about instead. So like I said, post, don't post, whatever, but let people have their conversations & debates in peace. The process, if it ever gets anything done or not, makes us better.

Tisk..tisk...

I will remind you when you do it.  I really don't care what people talk about.  I am more concerned with what people are saying about what threadsters here talk about.

There is a preoccupation with uniforms in these on line discussions.  This was actually triggered by a post I read at another forum that identified CAP as a group of "POSERS and PRETENDERS," they cited several comments and the preoccupation with "trying to look like the USAF" as one of their lynch pin points.

I don't doubt that you are not a "POSER or PRETENDER," but when people talk about CAP and cite these same sources...that all we are concerned with are uniforms.  And they actually have DOCUMENTED PROOF that this is so...well.

What's more, I would not post these things if I didn't feel that there was an issue that motivated me.  I didn't start this thread to create judgement or limit conversation.  I was insulted on behalf of Civil Air Patrol and defended it as mission driven instead of "SUIT DRIVEN."  Then I came here and presented the issue...to which all heck seems to have broken out.

Well, y'all win!!!

Ho-hum...I guess I was wrong.  Y'all would have me believe that CAP is about uniforms after all. 

[ELTHunter]

Joe,

I guess the proof of what you say is in the pudding, or rather the postings.  Your post over on the Safety board has had 10 posts in the last 36 hours, while you have received three times that many here in roughly the same amount of time.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Joe:

Really, what is to discuss in safety:

"Safety is better than danger."

"No, Safety is bad.  Let's hear it for the advantages of reckless conduct!"

[Hammer]

As of 14 December 2006

Posts in the CAPTALK UNIFORM SECTION...3412 in 148 topics

Posts in the CAPTALK SAFETY SECTION...68 in 10 topics

'nuff said, food for thought...eh?

interesting..........................

[Chappie]

My perspective on uniforms...whether it is the USAF-Style, BDUs, Golf Shirt/Grey Slacks, White Aviator/Grey Slacks or Blazer combo (I refuse to purchase or wear the TPU), I consult the CAPM 39-1 as to proper wear.  When it comes to the USAF-Style Uniform and BDUs, if I have any concerns about how it looks, I ask a cadet to inspect the wear.

Whenever I wear the uniform, it is done with pride of the country I serve through my membership in the Civil Air Patrol. 

[arajca]

My perspective on uniforms...whether it is the USAF-Style, BDUs, Golf Shirt/Grey Slacks, White Aviator/Grey Slacks or Blazer combo (I refuse to purchase or wear the TPU), I consult the CAPM 39-1 as to proper wear.  When it comes to the USAF-Style Uniform and BDUs, if I have any concerns about how it looks, I ask a cadet to inspect the wear.

Why not look it up? Even though I do not wear the USAF-style uniform or bdu's, I still make it a point to know how they are supposed to be worn. There are few cadets who have the depth of uniform knowledge I have.

Whenever I wear the uniform, it is done with pride of the country I serve through my membership in the Civil Air Patrol. 

Preach'n to the choir.

[DNall]

I am more concerned with what people are saying about what threadsters here talk about.

There is a preoccupation with uniforms in these on line discussions.  This was actually triggered by a post I read at another forum that identified CAP as a group of "POSERS and PRETENDERS," they cited several comments and the preoccupation with "trying to look like the USAF" as one of their lynch pin points.

I don't doubt that you are not a "POSER or PRETENDER," but when people talk about CAP and cite these same sources...that all we are concerned with are uniforms.  And they actually have DOCUMENTED PROOF that this is so...well.

What's more, I would not post these things if I didn't feel that there was an issue that motivated me.  I didn't start this thread to create judgement or limit conversation.  I was insulted on behalf of Civil Air Patrol and defended it as mission driven instead of "SUIT DRIVEN."  Then I came here and presented the issue...to which all heck seems to have broken out.

That attitude by some in the military is reflective of a MUCH deeper issue than uniforms. It's really about CAP members trying to act like they are part of the club & like they deserve any level of respect from real airmen. Meanwhile, we pay a lot of our own money for the priveledge of taking up the slack of the AF & helping them accomplish their mission (directly & indirectly). Personally, I'd ask them how many thousands they are required to pay each year for teh priveledge of serving their country on AF missions, but do that resepctfully.

Now, I do think CAP could change some things to live up to the standards of the AF family, and I think we could rework what we do operationally to become more integral/critical to the AF mission in a way that's visable to the rank-in-file.

The thing where uniforms comes in a lot is we're trying to break those old stereotypes & trying to move CAP forward by leaps & bounds to stand up w/AF to serve the country together. That's a long hard multi-step process. Right now, the mickey mouse way some of our uniforms look amounts to the command structure of teh AF confirming that attitude some have that we're a mickey mouse outfitt. Changing uniforms to foll people into thinking you're a pro doesn't make you a pro, but it is a vote of confidence by the top of the AF & sets a tone for where we want to take the org. That's most of what those conversations are about for me - combating that very attitude you're worried about.

[mikeylikey]

I have met my fair share of AD Airman who show the same lack of good judgment when it comes to their uniforms as well.  I have also met many in the military service that think they are "pros" when they are not.  I believe every organization, has the same problems, it is only how they are addressed that changes perceptions.  In the military, the NCO's correct uniform issues of subordinates, in CAP, I have noticed if an officer walks into a room and has an issue with their uniform, most will fail to approach that officer and give a corrective suggestion.  They would rather just let it go. 
  CAP needs to move away from the 1 hour approach of teaching uniform care and wear.  It should be a continual thing, but many members would rather not bother with it after SLS is over.

[Hawk200]

In the military, the NCO's correct uniform issues of subordinates, in CAP, I have noticed if an officer walks into a room and has an issue with their uniform, most will fail to approach that officer and give a corrective suggestion.  They would rather just let it go.

Reminds me of  something that happened in Korea. Had a full bird colonel come into our building, and as he walked past, I paused; said "Pardon me, sir."

He stopped, looked at me with a strange look. I pointed at his collar, and said "Uh, sir, your eagles are on backwards." (Eagle beaks always face front). He looked down at his collars, mumbled an oath under his breath, and then started to take his birds off. He looked at me, paused, then shook my hand, told me, "Thank you airman, I appreciate the fact that someone isn't going to let me walk around looking like an idiot."  I just smiled, said "No problem, sir." Walked on.

As he continued down the way he was going, I heard him talking (to himself), saying "So that's what was so funny this morning. Alright, one major and one captain are gonna be in the hotseat when I get back!" I gathered that there had been a few snickers in his office that morning, but no one had bothered to tell him what was wrong.

I think we can infer that in some cases, someone might get mad that you didn't correct them, when you should have.