Alt color tapes fr BDU/ABU

[DNall]

Somebody asked me to do this a couple days ago & I didn't have time, forget what thread it was in, but had a slow day so....

AF is going to ABUs soon & will be fully transitioned by 2009, but of course it will be quite standard well before that. Cap will follow with an initial wear date 2-3 years later & the mandatory wear date would be based on availability from surplus.

I & a couple others have mentioned that the ultramarine blue tapes look stupid, and that looking forward there will be a couple year period where CAP is in BDUs & AF is in ABUs, so that might be prime time to strike on making a change for the next 20 years - seeing how we were stuck w/ the current tapes cause no one was able to get a change authorized when AF got rid of the same tapes when BDUs came out.

Anyway, someone asked for a graphic example. It's no tthat good, but have a look. The AF on ABUs will be following the Army ACU model apparently for badges/tapes by using blue emboidery on camo'd background. I provided a badge in white on that background, but that won't be authorized. White on OD seems like it may be too far... yet every time I start thinking that I see SDF, JROTC, ACA all with subdued tapes exactly in the style of their parent orgs.

[MIKE]

How about Ultramarine on OD for BDUs and Ultramarine on ABU for ABUs?  The USAF uses Flag Blue IIRC, which is darker. 

[mikeylikey]

Why can't our tapes match the Air Force?  They did up to the switch into BDU's.  I am sure it was either a cost saving move, or someone at the old bookstore had stock in the blue material we are stuck with.  Lets use the same as the AF, it would most likely be cheaper.  Just think you can go to AAFES or use the AAFES catalog and order a nametape for say 85 cents.

[CAP428]

But then you run into the problems of accidently being mistaken for active duty, or worse, a member impersonating active duty.  Some people don't take more than a glance at the nametapes, and might miss the "Civil Air Patrol."  I think the AF sees less risk of this happening by using different colored nametapes.

[Eclipse]

Other than "they would look better", name a single reason they should be subdued, or anything else for that matter besides blue.

They are subdued on active uniforms for the purpose of camouflage from the enemy.

As we are our own worst enemy, and already know each other, camo is not needed, thus arguments for tapes that blend in fall on deaf ears.

For the record I would favor OD green w/ white, or woodland w/ white.

[shorning]

Why can't our tapes match the Air Force?  They did up to the switch into BDU's. 

Who's switch to BDUs?  CAPs or the Air Forces?  I know the Air Force switched to subdued tapes by 1982. 

For the record I would favor OD green w/ white, or woodland w/ white.

Personally, I'd like to see us back in an OD uniform.  But it really doesn't matter that much to me.  I think camouflage is a little silly and a solid color looks much better.

[arajca]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform. Before anyone brings up the color difference between the field uniform and the dark blue name tapes, the name tapes generally don't fade as fast as the uniform does. Therefore, you'll have darker blue tapes on a lighter blue blouse.

[shorning]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

[Becks]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

Yup, it basically looks like a Coastie uniform then.

[jayleswo]

One other alternative - embrace the gray. Face it, USAF isn't going to let us wear blue epaulets on blues or subdued cloth insignia on BDU/ABU.  As much as we'd all like that to happen, and I remember the days when I wore blue epaulets on my blues and metal rank on the service uniform, it's not going to. So, embrace the gray and make it our own.

So, how about medium gray cloth background with dark blue lettering/insignia for the BDU/ABU uniform? It would actually blend in well with the gray tones of the ABU and not stick out like a sore thumb like the ultramarine blue, but is still distinctive to CAP and not ridiculous looking. For the BBDU, keep the insignia as is.

-- John

[DNall]

             

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP, if that's possible, yet they wear BDUs w/ these, and now ACUs w/ Army style backgrounds & the air side will go to ABUs at the same time as the AF w/ AF style tapes. This isn't just Texas, browse any of the dozen or so avail from this single supplier (left side links): http://www.1800nametape.com/ By the way, you'll notice about half of them go with white/silver/gold on OD background for grade & badges.

Other than "they would look better", name a single reason they should be subdued, or anything else for that matter besides blue.

Appearance is 80% of any first impression, and in our work most of the time that first impression is the only one a citizen may ever have with CAP. That impression determines the extent to which a person initially will believe you to be competent, trust you, & choose to comply with your requests. Obviously dressing professionally doesn't make it true, but it gives you a little extra time & pliability with people before they expect you to back it up. Looking like a girl scout when you really are competent means you have to work that much harder to overcome impressions. I don't believe we should handicap ourselves with the public or reinforce seperations from the AF just because they forgot to get new tapes approved when we changed to BDUs 20 years ago.

We adopted BBDUs just like the CG, and it's tapes you're worried about making us look too much like them? We don't have to look different than the CG by the way (feel free to look at the CG Aux tapes above as well), just the AF, and I think some of that is self imposed. Personally I don't like BBDUs at all & think the blouse should be cut in favor of wearing the white aviator shirt with the lower half of BBDUs.

[DNall]

One other alternative - embrace the gray. Face it, USAF isn't going to let us wear blue epaulets on blues or subdued cloth insignia on BDU/ABU.  As much as we'd all like that to happen, and I remember the days when I wore blue epaulets on my blues and metal rank on the service uniform, it's not going to. So, embrace the gray and make it our own.

So, how about medium gray cloth background with dark blue lettering/insignia for the BDU/ABU uniform? It would actually blend in well with the gray tones of the ABU and not stick out like a sore thumb like the ultramarine blue, but is still distinctive to CAP and not ridiculous looking. For the BBDU, keep the insignia as is.

Gray tapes seem equally ridiculous to me, but how about OD or Dark Blue with medium gray letters rather than white. That could look good & would go with white or silver thread badges.

[MIKE]

We adopted BBDUs just like the CG, and it's tapes you're worried about making us look too much like them? We don't have to look different than the CG by the way (feel free to look at the CG Aux tapes above as well), just the AF, and I think some of that is self imposed.

I hear that the ripstop tapes are supposed to be better on ODUs than the web ones. The USCG AUXILIARY tapes shouldn't have periods though per the AUXMAN... and if you buy 'em from the USCG UDC they won't. The Velcro backed tapes are authorized.

Personally I don't like BBDUs at all & think the blouse should be cut in favor of wearing the white aviator shirt with the lower half of BBDUs.

Ewww... No.  Field Uniform trousers and a blue golf shirt similar to the USCG Aux one would be nice though.  I like ODUs better than the Field Unifrom... Never looks as good as issue BDUs, can't find a blue BDU cap that is the same as my issue one.

[Eclipse]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP, if that's possible, yet they wear BDUs w/ these..

...and because they aren't beholden to any higher authority, they can do whatever they want, just like military schools, and the like.

Heck, here in IL we have an org called IMERT, they just decided one day that they should wear military-style grade, and appointed each other.

However tenuous the threads may be, I do take pride in the fact that we ARE beholden for much of our operations to the USAF, and no one has come up with a good idea to present to THEM, especially in light of the fact that our activities of late have suggested we'd be happier without them (not me).

[RiverAux]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP,

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.  State Defense Forces are units of the organized militia of the state in which they exist.  They are real military units and depending on the state, some are fairly well integrated with their National Guard.  In fact, the TX State Guard has an Air Wing whose purpose is to augment TX Air National Guard units. 

[Major Carrales]

What do people think when they see this? SDFs are even less in the military than CAP,

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong.  State Defense Forces are units of the organized militia of the state in which they exist.  They are real military units and depending on the state, some are fairly well integrated with their National Guard.  In fact, the TX State Guard has an Air Wing whose purpose is to augment TX Air National Guard units. 

Yes, if we look back into the arcane past of the US and take the concept of "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" to its original meaning (as back to the Articles of Confederation) each state has soverigenty to estalish a militia.  This is reinforced in the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment in the Bill or Rights...the "well regulated militia."  As well as in the 10th Amendment.

They, State Defenders, are a "different animal" than CAP.

And...

Really, not this again!  So much time and energy is wasted trying to design or redesign things en re uniforms.  Why not have pride in what you are? In what we are?

I like Grey Shoulder Marks, I like the Ultra-Marine Nametapes.  And I will continue to like them until they are made otherwise.  I will not entertain such a fruitless effort as to design, debate or destroy e-friendships on CAPTALK because of "pipe dreams"as has been done in the PORTAL.

Now... I will say this. (There is merit in the efforts DNALL presents via his photoshop skills)  If one REALLY wants such things to happen, submit them officially.  Posting them here will really accomplish little more than argument.  The proof was at the Portal.

Just a suggestion.

[DNall]

SDFs are indeed in a parent-child relationship to their state's national guard in the same way CAP is to the AF, and thier uniforms are approved by the state Adjutant General (TAG), by the National Guard Bureau, AND by the Army or AF. I would argue that they in fact are very much like CAP in too many ways to count. In fact I think CAP should look to that model, which is in turn modeled on the National guard, as a guide for how to stregthen & expand our role with the AF.

Maj C,
Respectfully, I take a very dif view of the subject. When you submit uniform proposals to the official change, it makes sense that you formulate & discuss them with other members first. I mean what's the point of proposing something that no one else in CAP supports. Further, many Wgs refuse to take memebr proposals on national uniform changes. I actually don't know of a case in which a Sq level member has proposed anything up the chain that has even been considered, much less adopted. On the other hand, some of the things we talked about on the Portal created buzz in certain circles & are being considered. You do see I hope that a proposal sent up the chain with no prep work is very likely to be shot down, but one that the board has already heard about & even been semi-sold on before the ormal stuff gets there, that one has a lot better chance of getting thru. If you don't care about uniforms then don't read the threads!!! Jus tlike anything in CAP, you're free not to volunteer your time to something you don't want to be a part of, but you shouldn't slam others that do. There's no reason to be frustrated or harm any friendship, because you don't have to take part in any conversation you don't want to. That seems perfectly fair & reasonable to me.

Something like the topic of this thread is not about making the actual change right now, it's about raising awareness to how the ball was dropped 20 years ago when the change over to BDUs came, and how we face exactly the same situation in the near future with ABUs coming & a short window where we'll be in dif uniforms than the AF & will have more freedom to clean up the appearance. That's an opportunity on the horizon that can help psychologically set the tone for how CAP will approach the relationship with the AF for the next 20 years & help set the bar for how we would like to be viewed by them & in turn what opportunities we might have for service in the future. Those things are important to me. You can call it overselling the case if you like, but that's exactly the same level on which real military unform boards think when they look at items.

[Major Carrales]

DNALL,

I really look forward you meeting with you some day.  My frustration from this comes from the fact the we spend so much time on these issues with little action.  That's all.

Some call us posers and pretenders, our response to them should be via HEADLINES about our capabilities...not bickering about wanting to look like the USAF.

When the time comes, the USAF will extend that to us.  I truely believe that.  Until they do that, our efforts en re uniform issues will make us look more like we are trying to usurp USAF power by proxy of their name.

Major Carrales

[NEBoom]

<snip>
Something like the topic of this thread is not about making the actual change right now, it's about raising awareness to how the ball was dropped 20 years ago when the change over to BDUs came, and how we face exactly the same situation in the near future with ABUs coming & a short window where we'll be in dif uniforms than the AF & will have more freedom to clean up the appearance.

A minor nitpick here, but I keep seeing you all say that our nametapes were like the AF's until we switched to BDUs.  This isn't true.  The AF switched from the blue nametapes to subdued ones years before BDUs came along.  My understanding is that CAP stuck with the blue tapes because they had no need for reduced visibility (I hate to say "camouflage", because the old OD fatagues were hardly camouflage...).  When the BDUs came along the AF stuck with their subdued tapes, and CAP stuck with their blue ones.  I don't remember there being any debate about it at the time.

FWIW, I wouldn't mind a switch to a darker blue to match, or at least get closer to the shade of the BBDUs.  That would still look OK with the BDUs (woodland) and the new uniform when it comes.  Switching to another type of tape, anything subdued or cammo pattern, just isn't going to happen, so better not to beat your head against that wall.  IMHO, YMMV, E PLURBUS UNUM, ETC.

[DNall]

I always learned in business you dress for the job you want, not the one you have. The guy at work in a suit when he's only required to wear a collared shirt is going to stand out from the pack, & the boss is psychologically going to think of him as fitting in better at the level he's appears to be, & that helps win promotions. It's a really famous rule actually, I forget the book it originally comes from, but you'd know the title if you heard it.

In this case, I think the AF (officially & at the individual level) views us as not really part of their club. Some of that is based on reality, & some on perception. We weren't given these blue tapes to seperate us from the AF, we just never proposed anything to them that made sense. I believe the dramatic differences in our uniforms just draw attention to & emphasize the seperation between us, when instead they should be a foundation for all the things we have in common, including the mission & being on the same team to accomplish it. What I'd like to do is use the opportunities we have to dress for success, or more specifically, to make our uniforms reflect a stronger connection with the AF & what we want the realtionship to become in the future. Think of it as lighting a fuze that leads to better integration & partnership. It's subdtle, but an important step we have the power to take.

As to waiting for the AF, I don't know if you're aware of this, but the AF isn't allowed by congress to tell CAP what to do. They are only granted extremely limited authority over very narrow aspects of CAP & really aren't allowed to even make suggestions that step outside those bounds. You'd think uniforms are in their control since they have approval authority, but in fact they aren't. For instance, with the new corporate service coat they ordered some changes be made, they were free to tell us what wasn't allowed, but they were not allowed to tell us what they'd like to see in its place. CAP has to make proposals with supporting documentation & the AF has to accept or reject them as written, and generally cannot provide much more guidance then that.

I do understand the AF tapes changed shortly before BDUs came along, and that CAP did not then or now need reduced visability - nor frankly does the AF or you might see a few less reflective belts. I also understand why there wouldn't be an issue about it at the time, becuase it was recent history & the blue tapes were still in the collective mindset as affiliated with the AF. That's not the case now that time has passed & most people in the AF, not to mention CAP or the general public, don't know that the AF ever had blue/white tapes on green fatigues. As such, it becomes a psychological barrier. As I said, I think the dark blue tapes are the way to go & should be very easily adopted. I'd put them in with the white on DO as well & let the AF decide for themselves, but that's just me. The white on OD tapes certainly look more professional & I'd prefer to see them go to the AF as part of a larger package (along with Blue or Black grade slides for blues/aviator) under the heading of things the AF should consider approving in teh future when they believe CAP has earned them in terms of our quality relative to AF personnel.

[RiverAux]

Dark blue with white letters would look just fine to me, either on our current BDUs, the BBDUs, or the new AF uniform when we get it.

Heck, I don't even understand why anyone could confuse a CAP person in a suit that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it with anyone in the AF no matter what color the name tape was since there is nothing that links CAP with the AF on that uniform.  So, a dark blue tape should be just fine. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Since DNall did the bdu's, I figured I'd add the field uniform.

I could see the dark blue on those.

Yup, it basically looks like a Coastie uniform then.

Then it should fit right in with the TPU!

[mikeylikey]

we wear the current tapes because of money.  At one time, most likely 20 years ago some one or some business made money off of CAP members by continuing to produce AIR FORCE blue nametapes.  Think about it.  The AF says "we are switching to subdued tapes" the tape manufacturers said "oh crap, we have to switch the AF line over from blue to subdued, BUT what do we do with our tremendous supply of blue material?"  The answer, those manufacturers got with CAP HQ and cut a deal to get rid of their stock.  Everything in CAP (more so lately) is all about $$.  We have witnessed over the past few years the "Corporate takeover" of CAP.  At one time Military Officers drove CAP business, now we have leadership that foregoes affiliating with the military in hope of finding MONEY.   We are loosing the "AF AUX" identity.  I predict it will be gone entirely by 2010.

[DNall]

That might be a little alarmist &/or dramatic, but okay. I think uniforms are something small that can be used to help lean the psychology back to the Aux side & help build up that relationship.

I think if you'll do some research you'll find that the price of blue tapes did not go down for CAP members after the AF switched to subdued. Then all those stocks were gone within a couple years & the stuff was being specially manufactured for CAP at a premium prices. Of course we'll always transition to new things a couple years behind the AF to make use of surplus stocks when they're available, but ultimately the ceapest thing is to use AF-style stuff since it's obvioulsy being manufactured on a massive scale to meet their needs.

[NEBoom]

I always learned in business you dress for the job you want, not the one you have.

<snip>

In this case, I think the AF (officially & at the individual level) views us as not really part of their club. Some of that is based on reality, & some on perception... I believe the dramatic differences in our uniforms just draw attention to & emphasize the seperation between us...  What I'd like to do is use the opportunities we have to dress for success, or more specifically, to make our uniforms reflect a stronger connection with the AF & what we want the realtionship to become in the future.

<snip>

I do understand the AF tapes changed shortly before BDUs came along, and that CAP did not then or now need reduced visability - nor frankly does the AF or you might see a few less reflective belts. I also understand why there wouldn't be an issue about it at the time, becuase it was recent history & the blue tapes were still in the collective mindset as affiliated with the AF. That's not the case now that time has passed & most people in the AF, not to mention CAP or the general public, don't know that the AF ever had blue/white tapes on green fatigues. As such, it becomes a psychological barrier. As I said, I think the dark blue tapes are the way to go & should be very easily adopted. I'd put them in with the white on DO as well & let the AF decide for themselves, but that's just me. The white on OD tapes certainly look more professional & I'd prefer to see them go to the AF as part of a larger package (along with Blue or Black grade slides for blues/aviator) under the heading of things the AF should consider approving in teh future when they believe CAP has earned them in terms of our quality relative to AF personnel.

OK, I had a big long reply about finished for this, then my time ran out and I was logged off.   Will try to recreate my main points.

First, I think we'd go a long way toward "dressing for the job we want" by just getting everyone to wear our current uniforms (ultramarine blue tapes and all) properly.  Not seeing how continuing to make change after change will help with that.  Our uniforms (all combinations, AF and corporate) can look plenty professional if maintained and worn correctly.  That's where our emphasis on professional appearance should be.

You're entitled to your opinion, no doubt.  But I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill with all this.  If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

And it hasn't been a "psychological barrier" in Iowa for example.  All they've managed to achieve there was done without any changes to our uniforms.  In fact, one of the things they told me is helping to make their relationship with the National Guard work so well is that it's a "cultural fit," as the NG is also a uniformed service similar to CAP.  Amazingly, they achieved this "cultural fit" while wearing ultramarine blue name tapes.

I don't see the differences in our uniforms as all that dramatic, and neither has any outside agency I've ever dealt with.  The distinctions make it clear we belong to a different organization (which, by the way, we do), but there's still enough in common to maintain a link.  I've never found any doors closed to us because of our uniforms.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I just don't see this as that critical of an issue.  Definitely not worth all the deep thought we've put into it during this exchange, IMHO.  But if you think it is important and want to press it forward as a formal proposal, by all means have at it, and good luck to you.

[DNall]

Getting people to wear uniforms correctly of course would go a long way toward cleaning up our image. Yes I agree, further than any uniform change we could make. The problem is I can't send all members to spend a couple months with a drill sgt ripping them a new one for every minor defect till they figure out attention to detail or get out. I cant then send them on to a culture where everyone will speak up to correct peers. I can set an example, I can teach it right, & I can hold people around me accountable, all of which I do, but I can't change the world in one fail swoop. Maybe in baby steps though.

Certainly the color of the tapes closes or opens no doors in itself. As I said, it's a subtle thing meant to operate subconsciously, and as much on ourselves as outsiders. Let me try to put it in simple terms... There was a thread a while back where someone (not me) suggested it be mandatory to wear the AF style uniforms if you meet ht/wt/grooming. The problem pointed out with that is it would make the overweight & such feel like second class citizens because it emphasizes our differences. Does the multi-color explosion on our uniforms in & of itself mean anything to the AF relationship or the capability of CAP? Absolutely not in the slightest, but does the dramatic glow in the dark distinction emphasize our differnces, yes I think it does. And, I think that, among a few other things, allows people the freedom to think they don't need to meet AF standards for uniforms or for professionalism, or education, or training, or anything else.

I think too many things about CAP set us up for failure, or at least make life harder than it really needs to be. I think you can look at an example like Iowa & you have to respect their success, not just because of what they've achieved, but because they did it in spite of the natural defects & limitations CAP creates for us to work with. I think if you gave them a free hand they'd be wearing AF-style tapes & scraping the PD program in favor of AF-style OTS & PME with a merit based promotion system, and they've already made clear they want an NCO corps. That's not the CAP any of the rest of us know, but it is the one a lot of us would like to see.

So just summing up here, does the color of our tapes or most any other uniform detail mean much by itself? No, but it's one little thing on a list of about 50 that we actually have the power to do that sets the tone & gets people thinking like they're part of teh AF Auxiliary (big/little "A" whatever) and not so much an exclusively independent private corporation that's free to go off & do whatever it pleases & not be answerable to anyone. If you want to do missions for America, you have to work for the govt, not cowboy off in your own direction. I think we can change CAP into that picture of what a lot of us would like to see it become, but I think it takes baby-steps, and I think uniforms account for a little bitty coroner of that bigger effort.

[afgeo4]

As much as I like the idea of ultramarine lettering on ABU backing for the new tapes, I have to sound off on the SDF vs. CAP argument with just one statement to end all statements.

State Defense Forces are classified as STATE MILITARY (COMBATANTS)
CAP members are classified as CIVILIANS (NON-COMBATANTS)

Yes, we're all volunteers, but we're not the same.

This clarification brought to you courtesy of a Brig Gen of the New York Guard.

Having said that, didn't we have ultramarine tapes when the USAF had them at the same time circa 1960's?  Did it bother them then?

[DNall]

Despite popular belief, CAP is not classified as non-combatant & in fact cannot be. As has been pointed out, recon in a plane w/ a radio, & or camera is a valid target according to the geneva conventions. While I can't imagine a situation where we'd be called on to return fire, we do fly missions now (on the border for instance) that have the potential to (and on a few occations have) take fire. The AF is merely instructed by congress not to assign us direct combat roles. If we were at war with an enemy that played by the rules though, you could bet we'd be issued ID cards with some different wording on the back.

SDFs are not any more or less in the military than CAP, in fact I'd argue less since they have no federal standing. In all reality, there is just as much chance of CAP dropping bobs as there is an SDF being used in any kind of combat, they can't even take a front line role in a civil disturbance (riot). They are legally civilians acting under state orders when called up, just like CAP are legally civilians acting under AF orders on missions. SDFs are basically the Auxiliary of the Army aligned under the national guard, and their legal status is more similiar to CAP than perhaps anything else.

And, the AF never said we should be in blue tapes, they never said we couldn't be in OD tapes or that we can't be in the new ABU tapes when they come around. 20 years ago they said we didn't need the dark color lettering, so we stuck with the same tapes we were both using on fatigues & no one ever asked again. People have this impression that the AF likes to keep us seperated, and there's a legal issue for them, but otherwise they want us on the team & looking like it.

[Hawk200]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

[Hawk200]

To address the original issue on alternate tapes, my vote: white on navy blue for all accoutrements.

One, the darker tape would probably look OK on the current BDU, would match the BBDU, and seems like it would work just fine on the ABU.

Second, for those few NCO's we have out there, white on navy blue would match the stripes just fine.

It would probably be easier to make all the badges match in color.

[lordmonar]

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I've got to disagree...If CAP followed the same exact rules as AD USAF (U.S. AIR Force, OD CAP Command Patch, OD Squadron and Wing Patch, OD rank) we would be even more a bunch of yahoos "playing" at USAF.

I am active duty and no one really cares about the uniform all that much.  USAF does not take us seriously because they do not know who we are.  They do not know that we actually fly missions for the USAF and other agencies.  They think we are JROCT or something (which we are to a point).

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

Sure.....but the blue name tapes and color patches are not the problem.  The problem is cadets in uniforms that do not fit, are unserviceable.  SM's way over weight, or grooming standards in uniform.  SM running around base in CAP uniform doing personal business because it "gives them creditability" and finally it is CAP members who are not competant at their jobs. 

Bottom line....USAF will not allow us to be 100% like the Air Force because they do not want a repeat of the "CAP Maj vs Armory" incident.  We will not be allowed to be 100% like the Air Force until we get our own house into order.   National has to crack down on all those "unauthorized" uniform practices out there, and each level in the chain do the same.

Dark Blue vs Ultramarine Blue....who cares.  The USAF wore UltraMarine blue for years and CAP has followed suit all along.  We have no need to be subduded and every need to be distinctively different than Active Duty Air Force.

[Hawk200]

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I've got to disagree...If CAP followed the same exact rules as AD USAF (U.S. AIR Force, OD CAP Command Patch, OD Squadron and Wing Patch, OD rank) we would be even more a bunch of yahoos "playing" at USAF.

I am active duty and no one really cares about the uniform all that much.  USAF does not take us seriously because they do not know who we are.  They do not know that we actually fly missions for the USAF and other agencies.  They think we are JROCT or something (which we are to a point).

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

Sure.....but the blue name tapes and color patches are not the problem.  The problem is cadets in uniforms that do not fit, are unserviceable.  SM's way over weight, or grooming standards in uniform.  SM running around base in CAP uniform doing personal business because it "gives them creditability" and finally it is CAP members who are not competant at their jobs. 

Bottom line....USAF will not allow us to be 100% like the Air Force because they do not want a repeat of the "CAP Maj vs Armory" incident.  We will not be allowed to be 100% like the Air Force until we get our own house into order.   National has to crack down on all those "unauthorized" uniform practices out there, and each level in the chain do the same.

Dark Blue vs Ultramarine Blue....who cares.  The USAF wore UltraMarine blue for years and CAP has followed suit all along.  We have no need to be subduded and every need to be distinctively different than Active Duty Air Force.

I will agree that we need to be distinctively different. But at present, there are people that think we look ridiculously different. That's our problem. But I will concede that some of that difference is in people being sloppy.

And second, if they don't know CAP does, why aren't you telling them? One, you're one of the people keeping "the best kept secret in the Air Force". Second, I have a feeling if some of you're active duty associates knew what CAP actually was and what they did, they might very well be asking: "Why do you wear uniforms that look like that?"

[NEBoom]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

To be blunt, where did you get the idea that I think my list should be the list?  I was just sharing an opinion.  If you don't want to consider opinions that don't match your own, don't read the boards.

We disagree on the level of importance of this, that's all.  Would I oppose a change in color?  Nope.  Do I think one's necessary for some image reason?  Nope.  My experience (limited to only about 20 years) hasn't lead me to this conclusion.  If yours has, fine by me.  Hostility isn't required (or particularly appreciated) here.

A good day to you.

[Hawk200]

If I was to make a list of all the reasons the AF, National Guard, State Gov'ts and other such agencies don't take us seriously, then pare that list down to the top ten, the color of the nametapes on our work uniforms wouldn't even make the first cut (and probably would even be on my list to begin with).  I find it hard to believe that changing the color of our nametapes would make any discernable difference in how we're treated and/or perceived by the AF or anyone else.

To be blunt, why should your list be the list?

Having been Civil Air Patrol while active duty, I've heard loads of comments on the military side, starting from "Those CAP people are 'playing' Air Force",  to the comment I heard a couple months ago on the Army Guard side of "That's a really stupid looking uniform!".

Uniforms are an issue. The number one thing is getting people to wear them right. Number two would be to work on aesthetics.

Whether you think so or not, one way or another, they are an issue.

I try to make this clear to people, but some folks just don't seem to get it. Peoples impressions of your ability start with when they first see you. Period. You may disprove their first impression, but only if they give you the chance for a second one.

To be blunt, where did you get the idea that I think my list should be the list?  I was just sharing an opinion.  If you don't want to consider opinions that don't match your own, don't read the boards.

We disagree on the level of importance of this, that's all.  Would I oppose a change in color?  Nope.  Do I think one's necessary for some image reason?  Nope.  My experience (limited to only about 20 years) hasn't lead me to this conclusion.  If yours has, fine by me.  Hostility isn't required (or particularly appreciated) here.

A good day to you.

You are right, I was overly harsh in my response, and I apologize. I should have read more objectively and thought of it as opinion as well.

All in all, I see a lot of people that think that uniforms are a non issue. I have a problem with that line of reasoning. Some (but defnitely not all) of those people also believe that since the uniform is not important, then it doesn't matter how it is worn. That thought process results in sloppy uniforms.

Once again, I do apologize though for harsh words.

And for the record in response to an above statement, I don't CAP should wear the uniform the exact same way as the Air Force. I don't think we need the same OD accoutrements as the AF has, it wouldn't be distinctive, and it is really not necessary. But I think that a few things should change in order to look better than what we have.

[NEBoom]

You are right, I was overly harsh in my response, and I apologize. I should have read more objectively and thought of it as opinion as well.

No problem.  I do think it's great that we're all so passionate about CAP, and we all want to see success for the organization.  Unfortunately our passions occasionally lead us to butt heads on things.  No harm done.

All in all, I see a lot of people that think that uniforms are a non issue. I have a problem with that line of reasoning. Some (but defnitely not all) of those people also believe that since the uniform is not important, then it doesn't matter how it is worn. That thought process results in sloppy uniforms.

A good point.  And to clarify, I don't see uniforms as a non-issue at all (pardon the double-negative).  The point made above by lordmonar regarding unserviceable and/or ill fitting uniforms I think is a very important issue WRT uniforms.

Once again, I do apologize though for harsh words.

And once again, apology accepted.  No problem.  I'm glad you care so much about our organization.

And for the record in response to an above statement, I don't CAP should wear the uniform the exact same way as the Air Force. I don't think we need the same OD accoutrements as the AF has, it wouldn't be distinctive, and it is really not necessary. But I think that a few things should change in order to look better than what we have.

And I have no real opposition to this.  I just don't want people to think if we change some details on our uniforms that it will have a huge impact on how others perceive us.  How well we wear our uniforms (regardless of insignia details) and now professional we are while conducting CAP business will take us farther on that front, I believe.

Have a good day! 

[Hawk200]

How well we wear our uniforms (regardless of insignia details) and now professional we are while conducting CAP business will take us farther on that front, I believe.

True. I guess right now, I'm frustrated to the gills about uniforms. I have people at my unit that pretty much think: "Hey, these are just clothes!" I don't see it that way.

And I do honestly believe that our appearance is the first impression we make, I am just having issues with not being able to get that point across to some of the knuckleheads in our unit.

Maybe part of me feels that some better looking uniforms might make some people take pride in them a little more.

Then I have another part that makes a point of ironing, and polishing, and being retentive about the measurements. And I do all of that, in spite of the fact that our BDU's do seem a little silly looking. It can be a little frustrating when you have a cadet that asks: "Why bother doing all that?" How do you answer them? Really, how do you put in a way that actually sticks in their head, and then they act on it?

[DNall]

If I can respectfully echo that sentiment. Each person here has a slightly different experience & opinion, just as each person in CAP may or may not be psychologically influenced by making the uniform better tied to our parent AF, and each person in the AF may or may not look at that picture & draw the conclusion that it does or does not mean anything about being in the same family working on the same mission.

My personal view is that if people on either side don't care what the makeup of the uniform is, then it won't matter to them if we tighten it up w/ the AF side. On the other hand, for the people that are influenced by these things, subconsciously or otherwise, it is one of several tools that can be applied to advance a larger purpose. That's all. It's not a fashion contest.

I think CAP must be distinguishable enough to AF personnel that they don't think they are legally bound to follow their orders, that's it & nothing more. Once you've established for this airman (in the collective sense of the word) that this isn't an AF officer, then going any further than that drives a wedge, at least for some people on both sides, that is highly counter-productive.

Is this absolutely the most critical thing on the table? No, but it's a stepping stone that influences internal & external opinion in support of making deeper program changes that move us toward living up to the standards expected on the AF team. For instance, if I wanted to follow something like the Iowa model nationally, but with revamped PME that puts our officers on a target of 80% as qualified/capable/competent as an AF officer of the same grade, and NIMS certified to take up lead roles (including IC) on federal multi-agency response efforts, plus an enlisted or warrant corps underneath to accept the rest of our members who want to stick more to the traditional adult program & focus on one of the three missions w/o the hassles of management... how can I sell that when there's a competitive corporate flying club versus AF Aux mentality. If I want to have that fight in the future, then smart money says prep the battlefield before you put the decisive action at risk. Does uniform changes do that, well not by itself not even close. It's just one round down range, but pair that up with 49 items & the opposition starts to thin. That's why I talk about these kinds of things.

And for the record, I think we should have gone to dark blue tapes years ago & it would have been approved at any point it was asked for. Now as ABUs start down the pipe, I think we can go to the white/gray on OD while we're in BDUs & they are in ABUs, and carry those over to ABUs when the time comes, which would still be dif & distinctive from the ABU tapes they'll be wearing. We all know the AF is sensitive to having CAP members look good in AF-style uniforms, and I think they'd be sympathetic to a pitch based on cleaning up the professional appearance & instilling pride & esprit de corps in this symbol of being part of the AF team. Yeah I think I could sell the hell out of that. We just need an academic discussion of what you guys think would be the best case on ABUs 5+ years from now.

[DNall]

If I could recommend a resource on making people wear uniforms well. Check this out http://level2.cap.gov/documents/GorillaGuide.doc

The first couple pages address the issue pretty well for CAP members that don't get it, then it goes on to describe correct wear & tips for getting there. The first page is actually harping on Commanders enforcing standards. It's around 16 pages, but it's good stuff, give it a skim if you hadn't seen it yet, maybe put it on your Sq website.

[Hawk200]

I think CAP must be distinguishable enough to AF personnel that they don't think they are legally bound to follow their orders, that's it & nothing more. Once you've established for this airman (in the collective sense of the word) that this isn't an AF officer, then going any further than that drives a wedge, at least for some people on both sides, that is highly counter-productive.

I've been thinking of the best way of explaining this for years, but this statement is pretty much what I have been looking for. I think that the AF needs to educate on CAP, and know the difference.

Over the course of my time in CAP, I've made it a point to stop and inform soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines that they are not required to salute CAP officers.

The only argument I get is from Marines. Their response: "No sir, you are wearing officer rank insignia, we will be saluting you."

Seems to me, if there are people that insist on saluting us, we should at least be worthy of those salutes we receive.

[MIKE]

Over the course of my time in CAP, I've made it a point to stop and inform soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines that they are not required to salute CAP officers.

I see this as just as bad as the officer who demands salutes.  Return the salute smartly with a cheerful greeting and drive on.

Seems to me, if there are people that insist on saluting us, we should at least be worthy of those salutes we receive.

On this we agree.

[Hawk200]

Over the course of my time in CAP, I've made it a point to stop and inform soldiers, sailors, airman and Marines that they are not required to salute CAP officers.

I see this as just as bad as the officer who demands salutes.  Return the salute smartly with a cheerful greeting and drive on.

I never realized it as a bad thing. But, I'll adopt your suggestion in the future.

[arajca]

I find it humorous to see sailors/soldier/etc as they attempt to determine if the guy in the blue bdu uniform wearing captain's bars (me) needs to be saluted. I carefully do not let the humor show, but I enjoy the looks on their faces. They usually fall back on "When in doubt, Whip it out". I return the salute smartly and carry on. On a rare occasion, the service member will ask about it, usually after rendering a salute. Then I will explain it to them, otherwise, it makes them look foolish. Most of the time, they will politely thank me, then salute and carry on.

I have never concerned myself with whether a service member should salute me or not. I do salute those officers who are higher than I in grade, regardless of the service. And I do follow the "When in doubt" rule as needed.

[DNall]

Well an officer should demand a salute, along with respect, trust, followership, etc in their actions & command presence, not ever in word. Now if it's a case of it being required & you teaching attention to detail or good order & discipline to someone otherwise lacking that skill or upon whom their & your life may depend on constant vigilance of that skill, then it may be appropriate. But don't be acting a fool cause you think you're important, leaving that impression will lose you respect & ability to command effectively.

[flyboy90]

When the ABU's come out, will we be able to buy them from an Air Force base? I'm asking this because I live close to MacDill AFB and I heard you are allowed to buy stuff from their clothing store? If yes, I want to snatch up a pair right when they come out.

[arajca]

1. Yes, CAP members can purchase items (officially, uniform items) at the MCSS on AF and USA bases.

2. You may be able to buy a set of ABU's, but you CANNOT wear them in CAP when they initially come out.

3. By the time CAP members are authorized to wear them, the pair you bought initially will probably not fit.

4. Expect anywhere from three to six years before CAP is authorized to wear the ABU. Might be more, might be less.

[Hawk200]

3. By the time CAP members are authorized to wear them, the pair you bought initially will probably not fit.

Hey! I resemble resent that remark! 

[Smokey]

As far as the tapes go...we do need to loose the ultramarine blue, for the same reason we dumped the smurf suit....it looks stooopid.  Kinda like having an advocado refrigerator anytime after 1980 or orange shag carpets.  I'm not saying we need camo style but white on navy blue is fine, or something else on the darker shade. We can be different from the regular AF without looking like Bozo the clown.

Professionalism is also the key....always ask  "Does my appearance command respect?"   If not....time to change something about yourself.

As for the issue of mistaking us for regular AF...Anyone in CAP who dares give an order to AF personnel should be drop kicked out of the organization.  We may ask someone to do soemthing, but to have the nerve to give an order to real AF should be a capitol offense.

I return all salutes smartly...remember those rendering it are doing so based on your rank.   And never ever demand a salute , it makes you look petty and arrogant not to mention making the organization look bad.

[afgeo4]

What about Ultramarine Blue on either subdued green/abu tiger stripe?  The Ultramarine will stand out more than any other color and will allow for easy identification. I think it would also allow for cheaper production of the tapes given most manufactureres already have green tape background and will or already have ABU tape background. Could someone do a photoshop of that?

Also, given that the ABU is a garrison pattern and is useless out in the field as far as camouflage goes, does it mean we can stop wearing orange vests when on mission? Seems like everyone will be able to see us coming anyway.

On the same note, anyone know why given the Air Force mandate on the uniform being simply a garrison pattern, why the AFSOC airmen will be issued 4 ABU sets and nothing else for the next 2 AEF rotations while everyone else will get 2 ABU and 2 DCU?  Given that the ACU is available with Air Force name and branch tapes and Air Force insignia, will they actually use that?  Will they actually use the DCU's even though they aren't issued?  Why will we have to spend $100 on a pair of green boots for ABU's when green isn't even in the pattern???    Anyone else perplexed?

...sorry, had to vent

[DNall]

Ask the guy that works for them on your second question. Doubt he knows either. My experience is folks w/ special in their name get what they need & most of what they want too.

Here's quick & dirty on ur pic. obviously the second one isn't meant to be two tone. I just didn't want to do multiple copies. If you're going to go w/ a distinctive shade of blue on issue backgrounds, I prefer that flat sky-steal blue color as seen on the OD. The badges really look good in white or silver & of course the grade would be better in white/silver/gold.

[Hawk200]

Also, given that the ABU is a garrison pattern and is useless out in the field as far as camouflage goes, does it mean we can stop wearing orange vests when on mission? Seems like everyone will be able to see us coming anyway.

Most likely, but probably not for reasons of visibility. The manual just won't change for a few more years.

On the same note, anyone know why given the Air Force mandate on the uniform being simply a garrison pattern, why the AFSOC airmen will be issued 4 ABU sets and nothing else for the next 2 AEF rotations while everyone else will get 2 ABU and 2 DCU?  Given that the ACU is available with Air Force name and branch tapes and Air Force insignia, will they actually use that?  Will they actually use the DCU's even though they aren't issued?  Why will we have to spend $100 on a pair of green boots for ABU's when green isn't even in the pattern???    Anyone else perplexed?

...sorry, had to vent

As far as the ABU being used as a field pattern, it boils down to someone in the Air Force saying: "This is an excellent camouflage pattern, it will work! Because I said so!".

It's not that it's actually effective, someone thinks that they can call it effective and it will be. (Kind of like the Emporors new clothes?) Remember the previous blue tiger stripe pattern? The one where the Cheif Master Sergeant related: "I was standing next to a blue spruce tree, and it works great!"

Green boots are another example of intentionally engineering a difference between the Air Force and other branches. Even the Marine Corps was more of a team player. When they came out with their new utilities, they offered the design for use to the Army. Army turned it down, had the ACU instead. Everybody has to be different lately.

[MIKE]

What about Ultramarine Blue on either subdued green/abu tiger stripe?  The Ultramarine will stand out more than any other color and will allow for easy identification. I think it would also allow for cheaper production of the tapes given most manufactureres already have green tape background and will or already have ABU tape background. Could someone do a photoshop of that?

I thought of it first... 

How about Ultramarine on OD for BDUs and Ultramarine on ABU for ABUs?  The USAF uses Flag Blue IIRC, which is darker. 

Here's quick & dirty on ur pic. obviously the second one isn't meant to be two tone. I just didn't want to do multiple copies. If you're going to go w/ a distinctive shade of blue on issue backgrounds, I prefer that flat sky-steal blue color as seen on the OD. The badges really look good in white or silver & of course the grade would be better in white/silver/gold.

If you are gonna subdue the tapes, you should make the badges and grade match.

[DNall]

If you are gonna subdue the tapes, you should make the badges and grade match.

Oh God! I mean I agree with you in theory, but ultramarine blue Lt bars on an OD background is far too much for me. I'm really good with white, or a Lt Gray (in honor of our grade slides), on OD, silver badges & grade. If not that then white/gray on dark blue. What'd look best is dark blue on BBDU & OD on BDU, but I can't bring myself to propose such a lack of standardization, which just proves why I'll never be in charge...

Everybody has to be different lately.

On the other side either. Give it 10-15 years & we'll be back to standardized field uniforms. Boots will happen sooner then that. Probably in goofy navy/marine looking hats too. Given enough time, common sense tends to prevail.

[Hawk200]

On the other side either. Give it 10-15 years & we'll be back to standardized field uniforms. Boots will happen sooner then that. Probably in goofy navy/marine looking hats too. Given enough time, common sense tends to prevail.

10 - 15 years you reckon? That'll work, I should be close to retiring about then. Unless I do the State Guard thing. Either way, I'll have less required annoyance, and more volunteer annoyance.

[DNall]

I figure 10 before it's politically correct to complain about it, and five more to make something hapepn, but we'll see - remember Truman.