New CAP Awards Being Proposed

MIKE · November 20, 2006, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 20, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.

There is a limit to the file size and type though, so off-site hosting may still be needed for some files.

arajca · November 20, 2006, 06:43:16 PM

It appears the designer used the Army air assault badge as a base for the IC badge.

A question I have about the IC badge - will wear of it be required?

James Shaw · November 20, 2006, 06:47:17 PM

The Air Assault wings werent used. The "furled wings" are like those of the Glider Badge wings from WWII. They are furled to show availability of air support but not as a pilot. I dont know if wear will be required. It will be like other badges I would guess.

MIKE · November 20, 2006, 07:32:59 PM

Not Glider Pilot, Glider Badge... And it does appear more like the Air Assault Badge wing design.

James Shaw · November 20, 2006, 07:51:32 PM

Thanks for the feedback. Although the Glider Badge was the design that was "followed" the Air Assault furled wings are 98% the same. The tips of the glider wings were edited out and cleaned up. The Glider Badge was used as reference vs the air assault because of the Glider aircraft representation of a "light" aircraft. The Air Assault of course uses a rotary / helicopter design. I have added the full explanation of the colors and reasoning of the designs.

DNall · November 20, 2006, 09:54:48 PM

Well those are bad for starters, but I've given up having CAP design things that are worth a crap. I do believe there is a border patrol ribbon from WWII still authorized that would be best dusted off for this use. Then again, there should be no decoration for mission types (disaster, SaR, CN, HLS, Boarder Patrol, etc), those are notes on your 101. You should get a commendation for x-hundred hours of service or y-significant action in a mission area. Don't keep doing things wrong because others have done it before.

lordmonar · November 20, 2006, 10:02:41 PM

I agree with that.

A CAP Aerial Acheivement Award for say 50 hour no matter what mission type would be cool. Create a similar award for ground teams/mission base personel while we are at it.

Eliminate the border patrol (as proposed) and the CD ribbon.

I like the IC badge....however....should we create a badge for Mission base personnel below the IC level? Having one for the IC and not the others would be like having the GTL badge but not the GTM 3-1 badges.

James Shaw · November 20, 2006, 10:09:21 PM

Quote from: DNall on November 20, 2006, 09:54:48 PM
Well those are bad for starters, but I've given up having CAP design things that are worth a crap. I do believe there is a border patrol ribbon from WWII still authorized that would be best dusted off for this use. Then again, there should be no decoration for mission types (disaster, SaR, CN, HLS, Boarder Patrol, etc), those are notes on your 101. You should get a commendation for x-hundred hours of service or y-significant action in a mission area. Don't keep doing things wrong because others have done it before.

I dont think these are bad designs. I know there was alot of thought that went into them. When they are done we dont expect everyone to like them because we all have different tastes. These were designed based on heraldic reference and trying to honor our members. Yes there is a design that was used for the Southern Liaison patrol back in the 40's and 50's but the dates are closed. The design also included a cactus on the ribbon which cannot be done anymore. That is AF policy not to have "artwork" on the ribbons. The black stripe down the center takes its place. As far as the un-necessary aspects of the awards is concerned...even the active military has those. They also have inclusive dates and certain geographical and time restrictions. I dont see a "repeat" of any mistakes as far as they are concerned I am not sure what you mean by the last one.

To address an earlier post about why a cactus on the medal please read the description of what the entire thing represents.

BillB · November 20, 2006, 11:43:54 PM

The cactus was the symbol of the 1940's Liaison Patrol. So it's a move back to the roots of CAP.

DNall · November 21, 2006, 10:22:45 PM

I read the heraldry info, which very strongly appears to have been created AFTER the fact to justify someone's artwork. That's not how things are done, and by the way, that's not good use of established heraldric proceedures. If you're going to do something, do it the right way.

CAP's methodology on the awards we have is bad & contributory to the issues you state you're trying to address, yet the proposed solution here is to add on to the end with more in the same pattern. That's a bad idea. What we need is an overhaul of what we have.

We also need to focus on developing & executing the missions. You don't design a campaign medal for a awar that hasn't started yet. That comes a year into the process, and then only when the campaign is so significant & so dramatically changes participants' qualifications that those members MUST be distinguished from others.

James Shaw · November 22, 2006, 01:29:45 PM

Quote from: DNall on November 21, 2006, 10:22:45 PM
I read the heraldry info, which very strongly appears to have been created AFTER the fact to justify someone's artwork. That's not how things are done, and by the way, that's not good use of established heraldric proceedures. If you're going to do something, do it the right way.

CAP's methodology on the awards we have is bad & contributory to the issues you state you're trying to address, yet the proposed solution here is to add on to the end with more in the same pattern. That's a bad idea. What we need is an overhaul of what we have.

We also need to focus on developing & executing the missions. You don't design a campaign medal for a a war that hasn't started yet. That comes a year into the process, and then only when the campaign is so significant & so dramatically changes participants' qualifications that those members MUST be distinguished from others.

That assumption would be incorrect. The meaning and the design were both worked on at the same time. All of it has significance to what we have done and continue to do.

The designs are for missions that have existed for the most part since CAP has been around. The Distinguished Flying and Aerial Achievement do not cover specific "campaigns" , the Border Patrol award has been around since the 1940's but less than a handful of people are even eligible to wear it now. It is primarily a re-design and re-introduction. The AF has instituted the same idea as the Incident Commander we are following their lead.

The design and introduction of these does not hinder in anyway the development and execution of the missions of CAP. The intent of a Historian and the Historical Committee is part of the CAP mission. Historians are here to help preserve what happens in CAP in all respects. We do not segregate the accomplishments of a specific part of the misson as being more significant than the others. We support it through our work. My mission as a Historian is to preserve History and I do it very well.

This is a nice way for people to share ideas and talk with eachother about this kind of thing. If changes are needed or someone feels that a particular part of CAP needs to be overhauled and changed than they can seek out the proper channels for doing that. I always appreciate the feedback from fellow members even when I disagree with their feelings. That is the great thing about this group..........

Flying Pig · March 25, 2007, 06:19:45 PM

I do like the idea of the Border Patrol medal and medals related to actions in flight. Even when I was a cadet I remember hearing that come up when I worked flightline on a few SAR Ex's. I always thought it was odd that we didnt have some sort of a CAP version of an Air medal or Distinguished Flying Cross.

They approve Seniors wearing the CAC ribbon from when they were cadets, but no Border Patrol medal. OK.

RiverAux · March 25, 2007, 06:28:20 PM

Thats because it is being incorporated into a broader "Homeland Security" ribbon rather than any problem with the idea of this particular service not being worthy of recognition.

SAR-EMT1 · March 26, 2007, 01:16:20 AM

It would just be so much better if the USAF would allow us to be eligible for AF awards already in place.

Pylon · March 26, 2007, 01:21:16 AM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 26, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
It would just be so much better if the USAF would allow us to be eligible for AF awards already in place.

As discussed at considerable length elsewhere on these fora, CAP members are eligible for a handful of USAF awards, including some awarded for achievement involving aerial flight. However, the approval process is a combination of being unclear, needs very high-level approval for each recommendation, and lacks precedence in many cases.

BillB · May 26, 2007, 09:22:16 PM

Since this thread has been "reborn", the cactus was the emblem of the Worl War II Liaison Patrol. So it has a historic basis for the design.

mdickinson · May 26, 2007, 09:49:17 PM

Major. Jim Shaw. ,

I see the IC badges were approved at the March 2007 National Board meeting - are they now just waiting for a change to CAPR 39-3 and for Vanguard to put them into production?

Looking forward to seeing them on uniforms sometime soon.

I was going to ask what qualifications the star and wreath on the IC badges will represent - but found it in the minutes of the March 2007 NB meeting. The star will be worn by Level 2 IC's, and the wreath by level 1 IC's.

Regarding the medals - which is which? The one with "BP" and a cactus is clearly the border patrol medal - but neither of the graphics that have been posted here indicate which of the other two is the Distinguished Flying Service and which is the Aerial Achievement. I guess the hexagonal medal must be the Distinguished Flying Service - is that right?

best,

James Shaw · May 27, 2007, 04:41:49 PM

I have attached the designs that were proposed for the new ribbons and medals. The Awards were turned down at the Board meeting in Washington in March. The IC badge and the DDR Badge had to get NEC approval before going any further. I was told by a Vanguard Rep that it usually takes 30 days to get a design mold and everything done before distribution. I will get a few myself for my collection.

Tim Medeiros · May 27, 2007, 05:03:22 PM

I thought the DDR badge was approved at the winter NB?

JohnKachenmeister · May 27, 2007, 07:40:59 PM

Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 20, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
I know our southern border is of concern right now, but don't you think putting a cactus on the Border Patrol Medal just slightly limiting?

What happens when we need to start fending off our neighbors to the north?

Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.

What would you want, Mark... a moose?