So the wing commander says we need an OI to detail how everyone in the wing should meet certain requirements required by regulation. The wing commander says don't say anything that would change the regulation itself (that would be a supplement), just explain how we're going to accomplish a task.

OK, great, but when you look at CAPR 1-2 para 8.3.2.3. it says supplements apply to everyone within under the issuing commander's authority, but OIs only apply to personnel within the commander's chartered unit for OIs. Well the wing commander wants this to apply to everyone, not just those in the 001 chartered unit.

If you're thinking, "That can't mean a wing commander can't issue an OI for the whole wing, that's preposterous, the wing commander commands the whole wing!" I'm with you, but apparently that is the intent. NHQ even added an compliance inspection item to the D2 section that specifically checks, "Do wing published OIs apply only to the wing headquarters (charter 001)?"

So let's say, theoretically, the Director of Operations says we're having a process issue during training and real missions. Let's clean up that process by having the wing commander sign off on an Operating Instruction that will get everyone on the same page. There's no need to change the regulation, just provide clear instructions on how everyone in the wing should follow the regulation.

Any idea on how to proceed that doesn't get the wing in trouble?

It seems we have three scenarios but regulatory support for two:

• Wing Commander wants to make a regulation more strict for everyone in the wing (supplement)
• Squadron Commander wants to detail how a process must be followed within the squadron (OI)
• Wing Commander wants to detail how a process must be followed for everyone in the wing (sorry, you're SOL)

Argh.

Quote from: UWONGO2 on January 07, 2021, 09:59:42 PMAny idea on how to proceed that doesn't get the wing in trouble?

Yes.

Tell the Wing CC that "It is not good to want a thing too much." and move on.

If there are emphasis items that the Wing CC believes are being missed, schedule
training sessions, Commander's Calls, or similar, and emphasize them.

But OIs's and Supps are almost always unnecessary administraitvia that
just makes getting things done harder, or allows for "gotcha" moments that
potentially impact retention.

Quote from: UWONGO2 on January 07, 2021, 09:59:42 PMSo the wing commander says we need an OI to detail how everyone in the wing should meet certain requirements required by regulation.

Ummmm. I don't get it.  Is this Commander trying to say there are folks in his Wing that have quals on their 101 card that should not be there, because someone didn't follow the exact process as he would like to see?  Or promotions that didn't happen the correct way?

Whats the bottom line here? Creating instructions for every task could take ... how long?

Quote from: UWONGO2 on January 07, 2021, 09:59:42 PMSo the wing commander says we need an OI to detail how everyone in the wing should meet certain requirements required by regulation. The wing commander says don't say anything that would change the regulation itself (that would be a supplement), just explain how we're going to accomplish a task.

That's called a pamphlet.

I was once tasked to fulfill a Supplement and OI project for activity planning and approvals. On one instance, I sat in on a meeting with Wing leadership. I briefed that I was working on this, and got the confused faces. The response I received was "So think to yourself: Do I really need to create a whole new set of instructions, or do we just need to enforce the existing regulation and remind people what the process is? We can maybe even schedule meetings and coordinate with staffs to accomplish these items. But do we need to create step-by-step instructions that go through an official approval process, or can we just emphasize what already exists?"

Of course, I felt about the size of a nickel and was way out of my league in that conversation. "Hey, I'm just doing what I was asked." No Supplement or OI ever came out. And, frankly, creating a Supplement would have been something nobody even read anyway.

It took me some time later, and a lot of getting worked up and agreeing with my project lead who was bent up over it, to realize that we were solving a problem that didn't exist, or didn't need to be enhanced through process management.

Sometimes, it's as simple as listing on your website, in your respective staff area:
"Remember to contact (department) for assistance/approval before initiating (activity)."

Does it need a whole PDF to go with it?

Guidance vs. mandate.
Instruction vs. preferred method.

The majority of supplements I have seen have been wholly unnecessary, ranging
from literally quoting existing regulations to a lot of "You're really really going to
get a Flight Release".

They are almost always the result of some Goobers forgetting to do a thing, and someone
else wanting to make a point about it, which just results in a document that takes a year for approval,
1/2 the wing isn't even aware exists, and which is rescinded 5 minutes after the New Guy takes office.

There's way too much "we're putting a supplement together on this, so act as if it's already been approved"
nonsense, too.  We call them the "Double-Secret Supplements®".

"Double-Secret Supplement®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2021, 03:53:16 PMThe majority of supplements I have seen have been wholly unnecessary, ranging
from literally quoting existing regulations to a lot of "You're really really going to
get a Flight Release".

They are almost always the result of some Goobers forgetting to do a thing, and someone
else wanting to make a point about it, which just results in a document that takes a year for approval,
1/2 the wing isn't even aware exists, and which is rescinded 5 minutes after the New Guy takes office.

There's way too much "we're putting a supplement together on this, so act as if it's already been approved"
nonsense, too. 

Literally the airline industry.

Someone forgot to do something:
"Let's write a new manual about it."

Nobody read the last manual, that's how we got here...

Quote from: Eclipse on January 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PMBut OIs's and Supps are almost always unnecessary administraitvia that
just makes getting things done harder, or allows for "gotcha" moments that
potentially impact retention.

Sure, because the better thing to do, instead of a well promulgated and published instruction of some sort, is to rely on the email that Lt Col Control Lock sent out 2 years ago outlining how everybody should do tasks X, Y & Z (examples might be: "Fill out the gas card slip with the appropriate information to be uploaded into WMIRS after missions," or "To ease the annual awards process, upload the award citation as a PDF or Word document attachment to the online awards submission").

Because everybody knows that SM Knew Guy, who has been in CAP all of 5 months, was definitely a recipient of that two-year-old email. The one that went out over 18 months before he even heard about Civil Air Patrol.  And this is especially helpful when he gets the nastygram from Maj Tail Wheel, the Wing DO, about how he didn't follow the (unpublished) procedure on uploading fuel slips with the right information.

Yeah, that's always good for member satisfaction and mission accomplishment.

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 08, 2021, 03:40:25 PMGuidance vs. mandate.
Instruction vs. preferred method.

There are also things like "Job Aids".

Like "Hey, lets stick a slip of paper in the pouch holding the credit cards in the aircraft binder that reminds pilots 'The Red Card is for A and B missions, and the White Card is for C missions. If you're not sure which card to use, call Lt Col Tail Wheel at 555-1212 BEFORE you run the card at the pump'.  Because we keep getting folks using the wrong card even after telling them over and over."

But then some well intending inspector says "Sorry, that's directive. You need a properly promulgated and approved supplement specifying the text, typeface, font size, paper dimensions, margins and paper color of the job aid you want to stick in the AIF credit card pouch. Finding."

The reliance on unwritten, unpublished tribal knowledge grows in the face of the bureaucratic inability to easily document even the most basic of guidance.  Especially when the supplement would wind up being 3 pages to specify and describe the half-sheet job aid.

We call them discrepancies now. 

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 11, 2021, 02:58:58 PMWe call them discrepancies now. 

Do they send you guys to a special school or somethin... oh, wait.

Quote from: NIN on January 11, 2021, 05:30:27 PM

Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 11, 2021, 02:58:58 PMWe call them discrepancies now. 

Do they send you guys to a special school or somethin... oh, wait.

It's called Indoctrination and I hear it involves chemicals and shock treatments.