TXWG Alpine Mountain Flying Exercise Oct 12-14

[jb512]

Mission Scanners, Mission Observers, and Mission Pilots are encouraged to attend.

Some training opportunities include:

Digital photo training
SDIS
Archer
Becker DF

(no ground team training)

http://www.txwgcap.org/downloads/MtFlyOpsOct2007.pdf

[jeders]

Still debating whether or not I want to do this, should be fun though.

[jb512]

I've heard it's one of the best SAREXs all year.  We're taking our plane out there and it sounds like they'll be training on ARCHER and most everything else.

[CFI_Ed]

A few of us from Oklahoma Wing are going to try and go

[jb512]

A few of us from Oklahoma Wing are going to try and go

That's quite a trip.  Maybe we should all split a keg. 

[jeders]

A few of us from Oklahoma Wing are going to try and go

That's quite a trip.  Maybe we should all split a keg. 

I assume you'll be there, I'll hold you to that keg offer 

Now that the Mountain Flying Clinic is just a couple of days away, I'm wondering how many here are going. It'd be nice to put an actual face with some of the names on here.

[flynd94]

Call me stupid ( please don't ) but, I have been flying out of Houston for my company and haven't seen any mountains.  I pulled out my Jepp's to see if it labeled any areas as mountainous and, none could be found.  What are you going to do?  Practice contour searches on cell phone towers and, do canyon dives between oil storage tanks?

I just find it funny.  I am MP (check pilot/mountain flying IP) for CAWG and, I can't see where "mountain flying" skills would be needed in TXWG.



PS- any decent squadrons (heavy on the ES side) in the Houston area.  I will be relocating to Houston in the next month

[jb512]

Call me stupid ( please don't ) but, I have been flying out of Houston for my company and haven't seen any mountains.  I pulled out my Jepp's to see if it labeled any areas as mountainous and, none could be found.  What are you going to do?  Practice contour searches on cell phone towers and, do canyon dives between oil storage tanks?

I just find it funny.  I am MP (check pilot/mountain flying IP) for CAWG and, I can't see where "mountain flying" skills would be needed in TXWG.



PS- any decent squadrons (heavy on the ES side) in the Houston area.  I will be relocating to Houston in the next month

Obviously you haven't been very far west of Houston in Texas.  Pull up an El Paso sectional and it should be clear.

[SarDragon]

Call me stupid ( please don't ) but, I have been flying out of Houston for my company and haven't seen any mountains.  I pulled out my Jepp's to see if it labeled any areas as mountainous and, none could be found.  What are you going to do?  Practice contour searches on cell phone towers and, do canyon dives between oil storage tanks?

I just find it funny.  I am MP (check pilot/mountain flying IP) for CAWG and, I can't see where "mountain flying" skills would be needed in TXWG.



PS- any decent squadrons (heavy on the ES side) in the Houston area.  I will be relocating to Houston in the next month

Obviously you haven't been very far west of Houston in Texas.  Pull up an El Paso sectional and it should be clear.

Or go east towards Looziana. Kinda lumpy there, too, except maybe not as extensive as CA.

[CFI_Ed]

A few of us from Oklahoma Wing are going to try and go

That's quite a trip.  Maybe we should all split a keg. 

I assume you'll be there, I'll hold you to that keg offer 

Now that the Mountain Flying Clinic is just a couple of days away, I'm wondering how many here are going. It'd be nice to put an actual face with some of the names on here.

According to the IC, you've got 23 TX birds scheduled, and with the 3 aircraft from OK it should be pretty crowded on that ramp.  It's probably a good thing none of the OK crews are OU alumni.  :angel:

[Chaplaindon]

A few of us from Oklahoma Wing are going to try and go

That's quite a trip.  Maybe we should all split a keg. 

I assume you'll be there, I'll hold you to that keg offer 

Now that the Mountain Flying Clinic is just a couple of days away, I'm wondering how many here are going. It'd be nice to put an actual face with some of the names on here.

According to the IC, you've got 23 TX birds scheduled, and with the 3 aircraft from OK it should be pretty crowded on that ramp.  It's probably a good thing none of the OK crews are OU alumni.  :angel:

What a needless waste of badly-needed training dollars.

[jeders]

What a needless waste of badly-needed training dollars.

You're kidding right. I would hardly consider a training activity that increases member proficiency in an area such as mountainous terrain flying a waste.

[Chaplaindon]

What a needless waste of badly-needed training dollars.

You're kidding right. I would hardly consider a training activity that increases member proficiency in an area such as mountainous terrain flying a waste.

I'm NOT kidding at all.

I speak as an IC ...

Flying 20+ aircraft 4-5 hours accross the State to fly a very few actual mountain training sorties in a region of the State where actual missions are few. This augmented by the fact that NMWG is much closer by with actual mountain EXPERIENCED crews who could handle SAR better/quicker/safer in this area if needed. Make this an expensive "kegger."

It's popular with aircrews but of little actual utility versus the thousands of dollars it costs.

It's --all kidding aside-- a waste of money. If the CAP training budget was VERY large or unlimited, it would be a nice-to-have event. With $$$ so short, we need to spend money on training where it can do the most good. This is not such an event.

[jeders]

I will agree that we should look at where we spend our training money so that we can make the best use of dollars. However, anything where we are giving our members good training in rarer than usual conditions is not a waste. Anyone can handle the expected, it takes experience and good training to handle the unexpected. That's the point of clinics like this one.

[jb512]

My first question would have to be - Have you ever been to the Alpine training, Chaplain? 

This will be my first time to go, but our PIC says it's one of the best training offered all year.  It's not only a good opportunity for aircrews to fly in new terrain with differences in obstacles, altitude, etc., but it's also excellent training for photography.  It sounds like you are thinking about state/wing boundaries rather than a nationwide organization.

About 6 months ago or more, we sent several of our aircraft to the TX/NM border to help look for a downed plane.  The aircrews were there for several days.  Our squadron and several others who went are based in a relatively flat area compared to that so their mountain training helped just a little.

I disagree with you completely and think that we should send all eligible people to as much training as possible to raise the bar.  Make that training as challenging as possible not only to keep people from getting bored doing the same old thing, but to get them up to speed.  Sitting on your... money because "ehh, they'll never use that training" is not a progressive or wise decision and does nothing to further our people and organization.  Also, from my limited experience with government budgets, it's best to spend it all and ask for more because when you have a surplus at the end of the year it makes it look like you don't need as much.  While you do that, spend it on advanced training and equipment so that you can progress each year rather than staying stagnant with the same thing over and over again.

[Chaplaindon]

"My first question would have to be - Have you ever been to the Alpine training, Chaplain?"

YES. Not only have I attended it; I have IC/MC'd it.

I stand by my assessment and my criticism(s) of it.

[flynd94]

Boy, I guess I offended some folks.  Yes, I get west of Houston, I actually was in El Paso a couple of days ago and, I have seen the east side of the state towards Louisiana (seen Beaumont and Lake Charles).  I will back up the Chaplain, I also don't see a real need for "mountain" or as you called it "alpine" training outside of the units that are within 50nm or less of KELP.  Flying in units from the other end of the state or OK, is a waste of training dollars.  JMHO.

PS I must remember not to talk bad about TX

[jeders]

Boy, I guess I offended some folks.  Yes, I get west of Houston, I actually was in El Paso a couple of days ago and, I have seen the east side of the state towards Louisiana (seen Beaumont and Lake Charles).  I will back up the Chaplain, I also don't see a real need for "mountain" or as you called it "alpine" training outside of the units that are within 50nm or less of KELP.  Flying in units from the other end of the state or OK, is a waste of training dollars.  JMHO.

PS I must remember not to talk bad about TX

It's not Alpine flying, it flying that's based in the town of Alpine,TX.

If you don't want to ever fly in a situation where you might go into mountainous terrain, fine. You don't have to go. Those of us that want to learn how to properly handle flying and scanning/observing in mountainous terrain, this is a great activity.

All of the pilots that have attended this activity that I know have said that this is a great training opportunity because it gets you out of your comfort zone and gives you experience in a new environment. Even if the IC thinks it's a waste of time/money, the people who are there to learn think that it's a great opportunity. I think I 'll go with the opinion of those who are there to learn.

[CFI_Ed]

Flying in units from the other end of the state or OK, is a waste of training dollars.  JMHO.

PS I must remember not to talk bad about TX

Well, this is the only chance we have to attend this type of training as the state is a bit flat until you get to the Southeastern portion.   And considering 3 mission check pilots, 3 mission pilots, 1 instructor pilot  and a newbie MP will get to attend the academics and fly a couple of sorties with a safety pilot observing; the Oklahoma Wing/CC thought it worth spending our scant training dollars to send the OK crews. 

And if you want to talk bad about TX, well we won't go down that road...

[AlphaSigOU]

And besides... the parties at Alpine are legendary, to say the least.

Ahem... what goes at Alpine, stays at Alpine! 

P.S.: BOOMER SOONER!

[Chappy]

Sorry ChaplainDon but I think Alpine is worth it.  When you look at our latest fatality for CAP it was in the type of flying conditions found at Alpine.  Also the search for Steve Fossett demonstrated the same type of flying conditions, even grounding CAP assests for a day because of the updrafts and downdrafts, something that is experienced at Alpine.
This training has also been helpful as a training for GA flying.  A lot of pilots fly to CO or NM for GA, the training they received at Alpine helps their general skills as well.
It is also a time that air crew - scanners to MP - photographers - etc can get the training they need in a consistant way and wing wide way.

[CFI_Ed]

The Oklahoma Wing guys learned a lot, and we got to meet and fly with a bunch of great Texas Wing crewmembers.  Thanks   

And besides... the parties at Alpine are legendary, to say the least.

Ahem... what goes at Alpine, stays at Alpine! 

It appears that this year, the parties didn't happen (Too busy, and too tired).  Darn the luck.

[jb512]

"My first question would have to be - Have you ever been to the Alpine training, Chaplain?"

YES. Not only have I attended it; I have IC/MC'd it.

I stand by my assessment and my criticism(s) of it.

Then I'm glad you're no longer involved in the activity. 

Even if the majority of the pilots who attended never fly around another moutain top, they got to fly in conditions that were a bit out of the norm.  They flew in gusty conditions with updrafts, downdrafts, obstacles, sharing uncontrolled airspace with that many planes..... the list goes on...  It was very good training, no matter where you fly.

[jeders]

"My first question would have to be - Have you ever been to the Alpine training, Chaplain?"

YES. Not only have I attended it; I have IC/MC'd it.

I stand by my assessment and my criticism(s) of it.

Then I'm glad you're no longer involved in the activity. 

Even if the majority of the pilots who attended never fly around another moutain top, they got to fly in conditions that were a bit out of the norm.  They flew in gusty conditions with updrafts, downdrafts, obstacles, sharing uncontrolled airspace with that many planes..... the list goes on...  It was very good training, no matter where you fly.

Agreed. It was also great training for those of us working the ops desk. After we lost all contact with Sortie 102, we had to start preparing to send up an actual search plane.

The Oklahoma Wing guys learned a lot, and we got to meet and fly with a bunch of great Texas Wing crewmembers.  Thanks   

And besides... the parties at Alpine are legendary, to say the least.

Ahem... what goes at Alpine, stays at Alpine! 

It appears that this year, the parties didn't happen (Too busy, and too tired).  Darn the luck.

Let me say that I think you guys from Oklahoma did a great job here.

As far as the parties, those of us that were invited had a pretty good time at dinner with the IC. Heard a great Pineda impression and had a few beers to get over the roughly 57 sorties we launched and recovered Saturday alone.