Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Eclipse

Quote from: wacapgh on August 28, 2018, 06:51:51 PM
BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.

Another unnecessary and confusing affectation that makes it harder to be a member, or worse, mom of a member.

Uniform instructions for an organizaiton like CAP need to be written in a way that assumes the reader has never,
and will never, read a military-style regulation or instruction - IOW, plain English.

The main readership for that document is people who are already confused, either because they are new,
or because no one locally is helping them.  The current format just makes that worse, and then is compounded by
the myriad unnecessary differences between the various versions of the multiform and what can be worn
on this, that or the other.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on August 28, 2018, 07:32:54 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on August 28, 2018, 06:51:51 PM
BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.

Another unnecessary and confusing affectation that makes it harder to be a member, or worse, mom of a member.

Uniform instructions for an organizaiton like CAP need to be written in a way that assumes the reader has never,
and will never, read a military-style regulation or instruction - IOW, plain English.

The main readership for that document is people who are already confused, either because they are new,
or because no one locally is helping them.  The current format just makes that worse, and then is compounded by
the myriad unnecessary differences between the various versions of the multiform and what can be worn
on this, that or the other.

Do what the Army did: develop a confusing regulation with a confusing guidance pamphlet to go along with it.


Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
......
4.1.1.1. Rank Insignia is mandatory for all personnel. For CAP Cadet Airmen Basics or Senior members with no rank, a blank, Navy blue CAP Velcro tab shall be worn.

4.1.1.1.1 Officer rank insignia will silver; Second Lieutenant and Major rank insignia will be Gold.

4.1.1.1.2. Enlisted rank will be silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.3. Cadet Officer rank will be Silver on Navy blue backing.

4.1.1.1.4 Cadet Enlisted rank will be metal pinned rank on a blank Navy Velcro tab with rank placed centered horizontally and vertically.

4.1.2.1. Name and CAP tapes embroidery will be silver on Navy Blue tape. Name and CAP tapes may be sewn on or affixed with Velcro; however the sewn tapes must maintain a consistent horizontal length to the Velcro affixed tapes.

Based on the pics provided, the blue tapes don't look right. The colors are not complimentary. I think tan tapes (and associated badges in tan cloth) would be more appropriate. Tan is contrasting, but it's still a complimentary color. The contrast would also be notable in the "low light" conditions that the Air Force has mentioned before.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
4.1.4. Badges and Commander's Insignia Pin (Group and Unit Commanders). Wear of this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the nametape over the right pocket.

The commander badge is weird as the Air Force currently has it written. Current commanders wear as noted, but I saw something about graduated commanders wear on the left sleeve. Looking at the uniform, it doesn't look like there's a really good placement for it below the nametape.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
4.1.5.1. One full color patch as authorized by Attachment 4 may be affixed with Velcro to the left sleeve centered on the OCP shirt. Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area.

4.1.5.2. Organizational unit of assignment patches may be worn on the right sleeve.  Patches will full color, centered at the top of the Velcro area unless authorized functional badges or joint qualification tabs are worn.

I would change that to more closely mirror the Air Force. They're putting it on the left side, and I think that the left side should be exclusively for the unit patch as far as CAP is concerned. If a unit doesn't have one, then nothing would be worn in that position until they come up with a unit patch. No preemption or overrides allowed.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
[Optional] 4.1.5.3. U.S. Flag Patch. A full color United States flag patch [reversed] may be worn on the upper portion of the right sleeve pocket panel. If U.S. Flag patch is worn, organizational patch shall be placed immediately below the flag patch.

Make the flag mandatory. It would probably look odd without it.

The Air Force has made the right sleeve a higher headquarters placement, or at commander's option, a combat patch may be worn. I would say go with it as an optional placement for a wing patch, or allow NCSA or some of the other patches that used to be allowed on the right sleeve of the BDU, or even things like the Commo, or Safety patches. (Additionally, I would allow patches other than the unit patch that would normally be permitted on the front pockets of the BDU be worn. Essentially, if you had a patch that could be worn on the front, you can just wear it on that sleeve if you don't feel like sewing it on the front. Plus, it would be easy to change out patches for the setting you're in pretty easily. Sewing it on a front pocket would probably be a PITA anyway. )

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

I don't have any of those, but I'd love to see people allowed to wear them if they earned them. The only stipulation I would have is that their wear would only be if it's a permanent award. If it's the kind of patch (such as a brassard) that is only worn while performing specific duties, then it doesn't need to be worn on CAP uniform.

Probably won't cost anyone anything, either. The people who would wear them already have them.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
I like the idea of reorganizing the CAP ranger tabs onto the school/NCSA patch. Have the hawk patch, with a rocker above and/or below the patch or incorporated into the patch in some way. That'd likely have to be on HMRS to redesign their current system, but I wouldn't see it being too difficult

I had a different idea for Hawk Mountain tabs, but I like this one. Wouldn't be really all that hard to do.

TheSkyHornet

^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.

PHall

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 31, 2018, 02:42:29 PM
^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.

The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.
The black boots and the different colored name/branch tapes do that.


Eclipse

Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 02:47:32 PM
The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.

The "low light" verbiage no longer appears in 10-2701.

This is now the only comment in regards to uniforms (Page 4
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F.pdf

"1.2.3.2.3. Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards
for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring
distinction from Air Force uniforms
and identification cards"

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on August 31, 2018, 02:42:29 PM
^ If you changed the color of the name tapes, go with coyote brown, not desert tan. Match them to the shirt.

I still don't see why name tapes have to be that distinctive. I figure the fact that the tape says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and not "U.S. (BRANCH)" distinguishes the organization. I don't think people regularly confuse the Sea Cadets with the Navy.

I was considering availability. You can find the desert tan nametapes pretty easily, inexpensive, and you can find badges embroidered on tan, too. We'd need to have CAP badges made in that color scheme, but I don't think that would be too hard. And it would probably be easier for just about anyone to make them on tan cloth. I would imagine that most of the producers already have tan cloth in stock. It would be a matter of feeding a different cloth, and different color thread into the embroidery machine.

As TheSkyHornet mentioned, we are required by directive to show some distinctiveness. I wouldn't mind the colors being distinctive if they're complimentary. Navy blue actually looked OK on BDUs, but it doesn't seem to really work on OCP. I see no reason to change our patches at all, they don't need to be subdued, and I think most of the colors would look just fine with OCP. Full color patches on it would be easily recognizable as different from military personnel. Even in the aforementioned low light conditions (Might not be required anymore, but making an effort on the distinctiveness wouldn't hurt.)

When it comes to badges, some people like to see military badges in the same color as the CAP ones. That would be easily doable. You can buy them on tan cloth right now. Adding CAP ones would not take long, someone just has to make the decision, and ask Vanguard to start producing them. If someone made that decision today, they could probably be available by the end of next week. Coyote Brown cloth embroidered badges would probably take a little while, manufacturers would need to acquire the cloth, and who knows how much of a premium they'd want to charge for them to acquire it?

I'm sure Vanguard wouldn't mind charging a few dollars more to make our patches available with Velcro. Personally, I've used some adhesive backed Velcro a large number of times.

Hawk200

Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

PHall

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.

LATORRECA

Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.
[emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on August 31, 2018, 03:28:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 02:47:32 PM
The Sea Cadets don't have AFI 10-2701 that has the requirement that we have to be visually distinct from the Air Force even in low light conditions.

The "low light" verbiage no longer appears in 10-2701.

This is now the only comment in regards to uniforms (Page 4
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/AFI_102701_31_Jul_14_0475E646C469F.pdf

"1.2.3.2.3. Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards
for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring
distinction from Air Force uniforms
and identification cards"


That's even worse then before because now it's a totally subjective decision by the CAP-USAF Commander.

supertigerCH

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 12:11:16 AM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
......


Based on the pics provided, the blue tapes don't look right. The colors are not complementary. I think tan tapes (and associated badges in tan cloth) would be more appropriate. Tan is contrasting, but it's still a complimentary color. The contrast would also be notable in the "low light" conditions that the Air Force has mentioned before.



Agree with the idea about how certain colors can be more "complementary" than others -- while still being distinct enough to use on CAP uniforms.  Using this type of thinking as a guide allows CAP uniforms to look the best (and the most professional) that they possibly can.  This would be a very good guiding principal for CAP to use in future decision making.  You totally have me on board when it comes to this... and I think the vast majority of people will probably agree.

Another distinct but complementary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

This last part is, again, just a personal opinion =

in my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or any other "complementary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).

SCE124

Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.

Remember in this day and age online ordering is huge! Major websites like Amazon and Walmart sell Coyote Brown boots of all brands, styles, and price points. These sites offer free 2-day shipping (in most cases) and free exchanges if the size is incorrect. For what it's worth Vanguard currently carriers a single pair of Bates black boots and I'm sure they would carry Coyote brown if that is the route taken. I know that some of my local Walmarts carry Coyote Brown regulation boots in the stores for $44. They fit similar to sneakers (comfy) and, IMO, would be ideal for our cadet members over the awful Rothco Jungle boots that a lot of our Cadets currently wear.

Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!

xyzzy

I would not like to see two different uniforms with two different boot colors, because members may be transitioning among woodland, ABU, corporate BDU, and in the future, OCP. Either  allow a choice of black or coyote brown, or allow a long transition period and allow coyote brown with all utility and flight uniforms.

Currently we allow black boots with Class A, Class B, and aviator shirt uniforms. I don't think coyote brown would look great with those uniforms.

Mitchell 1969

Please, please, can we stop talking about "complimentary colors?" None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

"ComplEmentary colors" are what we are looking for. 


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Hawk200

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 31, 2018, 10:11:53 PM
Please, please, can we stop talking about "complimentary colors?" None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

"ComplEmentary colors" are what we are looking for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noted. My screw up entirely.

supertigerCH

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on August 31, 2018, 10:11:53 PM
Please, please, can we stop talking about "complimentary colors?" None of the colors give compliments. The colors just sort of sit there, neither complimenting nor denigrating anyone.

"ComplEmentary colors" are what we are looking for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


oh how true.  you are right!

lol...  ;D

Hawk200

Quote from: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 06:15:56 PM
Another distinct but complimentary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

OD would work. I was considering something that was distinctively different, but if they decided on OD, that could work.

Quote from: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 06:15:56 PMin my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or any other "complimentary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).

I've actually seen white on OD. Never really cared for it. But, I'd be more on board with that than the blue tapes.

Wish I had some OCPs to mock this up. (Wife wouldn't be happy with me spending that kind of money on a bunch of nametapes, so I'd have to sneak them.)

supertigerCH

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 10:57:58 PM
Quote from: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 06:15:56 PM
Another distinct but complementary color for name tapes and badges would be the traditional Olive Green (or color shades very close to it).  On one hand, color shades of OD have been around a long time... and might seem to some people like going backwards in time.  On the other hand, if most people stop to think about it... the color still goes well with a surprisingly wide variety of uniform colors & patterns  -- both old and new.

OD would work. I was considering something that was distinctively different, but if they decided on OD, that could work.

Quote from: supertigerCH on August 31, 2018, 06:15:56 PMin my mind, whether CAP uses tan, olive, or a

ny other "complimentary color" on future tapes/badges... the lettering/embroidering would probably always remain silver or white (since something about that seems to add to the distinctiveness... of CAP uniforms, custom, & traditions).

I've actually seen white on OD. Never really cared for it. But, I'd be more on board with that than the blue tapes.

Wish I had some OCPs to mock this up. (Wife wouldn't be happy with me spending that kind of money on a bunch of nametapes, so I'd have to sneak them.)

yeah, just bouncing around ideas... about what could work.  these CAPTALK conversations are just sharing thoughts & ideas.  the only thing that counts at the end of day, is what the powers-at-be eventually decide to make official.

it is nice to have a "think tank" online... where everyone can compare & contrast their ideas.  very occasionally... something tangible might come out of it (if a good idea spreads and gets traction).  other than that... we all just get to add our voices to the conversation.

like you... I also have seen white lettering/stitching on OD in the past.  on certain uniforms, it can look good... even if not "the best ever seen".  it probably would seem to most people as "not bad"... just good (blending with the uniform well enough to make it look professional).

Certainly I do agree that when it comes to any possible OCP uniforms... OD green tapes (or some type of similar color/shade) badges with white/silver lettering & stitching... would do better than dark blue.  Must say though, that the dark blue "Air Force Blue" looks very good on woodland BDU... and of course on the BBDU.

Thank you for that CAP & Air Force leadership!  Much appreciated for this great uniform improvement of a few years ago!!

Like someone said earlier on in the thread... any uniform changes are likely to be quite a few years down the road from now (since we just had big changes recently in 2016).  I'm quite content with things for now... considering that many things have improved.


CAP9907

Quote from: SCE124 on August 31, 2018, 07:58:42 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 31, 2018, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 31, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Come to think of it, I really hope we could get away with the same boots the military is wearing. Black might look OK, but it's easier to just walk into a mil clothing store and buy the coyote brown ones off the shelf.

Large parts of the country are in excess of 100 miles from any military installation that has a military clothing store.
And CAP for all practical purposes can not use the AAFES mail order system either.



Again, IMO, There really should be no reason why CAP cannot adopt the Coyote Brown boots! I guess we will wait and see what comes to be!

And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
21 yrs of service

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