Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Fubar

Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Fubar on August 25, 2018, 04:38:52 AM
Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.

Thanks for the update Fubar! I heard there may be an announcement about a change to the flight duty uniform though, has anything been said? (If I recall it was about the flight suit name patch).
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


LATORRECA

Quote from: Fubar on August 25, 2018, 04:38:52 AM
Report from the uniform session at the conference: there have been zero discussions by the uniform committee regarding changing CAP's uniforms to match the USAF changes and there's nothing planned for the near future. There is a revision to M39-1 coming this fall to include the two new STEM and Cyber cadet badges that are already being sold at the conference.
Thanks for the update

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CAPLTC

CAP needs to make this switch as soon as possible.
Adopt the new uniform, boots and all, ASAP.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM
Alright everyone, I know this usually devolves but the last thread remained civil for quite a while and I'm hoping this one can too. I would like to open up some polite discourse on the future of the CAP AF style utility uniform. I'm pulling some stuff from other threads and adding some new things as well (including reference images) to help out. I've also had some pretty positive discussions with those in my group and wing about some of these issues and I think there were some good points made worthy of sharing.

First to what we know, the ABU is going away. It's been on it's way out for a while, just like the original ACU. It didn't do the job the AF wanted and didn't do it well enough. In order to bring the "utility" back in the USAF's field uniform, they decided to switch to the OCP which in many ways is a superior cut both for fitment, organization, and pattern. Now, I'm not going to discuss patterns so much because they don't really matter to us beyond the fact our parent organization uses them but what I do have is below;

Regardless of your position on color/design preference on ANY uniform;

  • We will see an initial surge of ABU's when the USAF begins to make it's transition
  • We will likely see many of the other uniform items become more available as the rest of the force begins their switch
  • With the OG and BDU, all services used those patterns so we had a pretty hefty allotment of surplus for some time from the AF and other branches for 30? years of use, which drove the nearly 10 year transition delay for both uniforms.
  • Since the ABU was only used by the USAF and only for about 11 years before the transition to new uniform was announced, surplus will already be far lower than other uniforms we've had.
  • Since only one branch used the ABU, surplus will also be limited. Once that initial surge of surplus diminishes, we're going to see availability for ABU's plummet and prices increase more than they already have similarly to what we started seeing with BDU's just prior to CAP making the decision to swap.
  • OCP and it's prior generation design have been around a while and are easy to find and cheap already. Many in the AF already use it, and the entire Army is phasing in as well, which is why the AF switched to it and not a new pattern.
  • People are going to argue/whine/complain about uniforms no matter what side of the fence they're on and try to make their point, and I don't exclude myself from that.

Now on to some points regarding CAP;

  • CAP will want to remain distinctive to an extent (IE Black boots, Navy tapes w/ white lettering etc.) which it should be...
  • CAP wants to remain close to it's parent organization visually and operationally.
  • The USAF wants us to not diverge too much from them as a parent organization.
  • From a Public Affairs perspective it makes sense to remain visually similar to our parent org.
  • Many cadets are drawn to the program by the uniform (I was when I joined 14 years ago and I don't deny that). [It's the whole came for digs, stayed because it was awesome doing cool stuff thing]

Cons to switching to OCP within a reasonable time (read as sooner rather than later):

  • It's one more uniform out there in the wild for cadets and seniors that fall within standards
  • It's going to royally screw up our already defunct transition period to change things before the transition ends June 2021.
  • If we don't start the change in a reasonable time, we're looking at a logistical nightmare sourcing uniforms for anyone for a reasonable price, to say nothing about sizes cadets can wear.
  • If we begin to make the swap too soon, we'll be met with the same logistical nightmare on the other end, with not enough OCP's to go around for our active/reserve/guard family AND CAP. So, timing in essence will be the name of the game

Pros to switching to the OCP in a reasonable time:

  • We retain similarity visually with our parent organization while still being able to be distinctive.
  • Vanguard already makes the velcro rank and name/branch tapes for CAP for use on the fleeces.
  • Sizing will be better for all, but especially for cadets and females. (this is one of the stated reasons the AF is changing over)
  • The uniforms are more comfortable (Both from personal experience and from information taken by the AF states this.)
  • Velcro tapes, rank patches, etc make changing rank and other items easier.
  • Other patches, Wing/NCSA/Squadron et. al. will work better with OCP's due to the velcro etc. I know many including myself went no-patches on the ABU's because they didn't look right, or other reasons.
  • The boots can remain the same as we currently have, or we can change. Those who wear corporate usually stick to those, and those who wear USAF style generally stick to that anyways, so interplay between the two uniform types is a mute point. Only issue I see is possibly changing boot color with the flight suits, I don't know, flip a coin or something on those, it doesn't really matter.
    -Ergonomics of the pockets/pouches are far better on OCP.
  • This provides an opportunity for CAP to also change the BBDU to the ACU style pockets for similarity while retaining a corporate uniform for those who don't meet H/W standards and/or have religious preferences for beards/etc.
  • This change will overall reduce cost to members due to product and uniform item availability over the coming years
Now, what would all of this look like? Due to some of the other things I do in the background, I have access to some of the newer uniforms, and am currently sitting with the last 2 CAP AF style field utility uniforms and the current US Army OCP Scorpion W2 that the USAF is swapping to so it's simple enough to slap things around a bit and take a look; (keep note, I would never encourage anyone to wear a non-approved uniform, so please don't go out wearing stuff like this unless we get some kind of national approval. It's only a visual reference so everyone can see what we're talking about.)


One thing I will note above is the ease of changing nametapes and rank on a uniform. That may be a positive change for cadet squadrons where less sewing will be required.

The OCP is far more comfortable than the ABU's or even BDU's. I loved by BDU's but I've got to say this new one feels like a better fit.The velcro on the arms is fairly large and allows for both a flag patch and another type of heraldry or NCSA patch under it, with a wing patch or other NCSA patch or squadron patch going on the other side.


Unlike just about any CAP uniform I can think of, the sleeve cuffs are inverted, which hides the nylon button from view and so far I've noticed has reduced snagging. You can see it in the first picture as well. It has a pen pocket of course on the left arm just like the ABU does. The back and arms have a gusseted panel which makes the uniform far more comfortable when reaching or wearing gear.

The new collar is a nice as well. The pants are pretty standard but there have been some upgrades as well. I can note these in a later post if anyone wants to see. There's also the issue of boots but I know that's going on in another thread currently so I won't touch that yet.

Overall, I think it's probably a good idea to start looking at what we need to do to make the switch and stay in line with the AF. I'm sure this puts a wrench in the works for our current transition, but it'll have to be done eventually (for the above stated reasons).
"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they're so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis

SarDragon

At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

LATORRECA

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2018, 03:41:16 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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Thanks for the update

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audiododd

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 07:03:56 PM
Quote from: xyzzy on August 24, 2018, 05:45:49 PM


I'm looking into this a bit more, I've seen some options that may solve this problem. I'm not sure if the below are full size or mini's, although the guys at Vanguard have told me they are full size. Maybe something like this as an option.

Edit: Better image.



HOLY CRAP!!  That's Charlie!  He's been a bagger at Ramstein AB since Moses was a Private!!

I just found the Stars & Stripes article about this.

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/air-force-boss-learned-important-lessons-from-longtime-ramstein-commissary-bagger-1.484081

Sorry...I got excited.  Continue with the OCP discussion.
Dodd Martin, MSgt, CAP
MSgt, USAF (Ret.)
Squadron NCO
Safety/Comm/Admin/Personnel/IT
TMP - MO - MS - MRO - MSO

Luis R. Ramos

That's ok. Since non-uniform topics digress into uniform topics, uniform topics have to digress into non-uniform topics!

>:D


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

sarmed1

Quote from: jeders on August 24, 2018, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
snip...

Quote4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, ...snip
etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?


Quote(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.

I would say no to the Ranger Tabs here-as its geared toward the military tab a this point.  I would rather see someone re-design the Ranger qualification/award system to either incorporate it into the school patch or as a separate qualification badge consistent with existing badges.

patrol cap:  its in the AFI this way as well, so its now going to be an AF thing, and the hat comes with the Velcro in place

MK
Capt.  Mark "K12" Kleibscheidel

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: sarmed1 on August 26, 2018, 02:45:25 PM

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 24, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
snip...

Quote4.1.5.4. Awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) may be worn above the unit patch as a third patch (e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, ...snip
etc.)

Would CAP Ranger tabs be included in this?


Quote(Not sure about adding this part: The Velcro or sew-on Navy nametape is optional. If worn, it will be worn centered on the back of the patrol cap. Officers will wear sewn on rank insignia centered horizontally and vertically on the front of the OCP patrol cap.

Please don't; that's an Army thing, not really an air force thing and is entirely unnecessary.

I would say no to the Ranger Tabs here-as its geared toward the military tab a this point.  I would rather see someone re-design the Ranger qualification/award system to either incorporate it into the school patch or as a separate qualification badge consistent with existing badges.

patrol cap:  its in the AFI this way as well, so its now going to be an AF thing, and the hat comes with the Velcro in place

MK

I like the idea of reorganizing the CAP ranger tabs onto the school/NCSA patch. Have the hawk patch, with a rocker above and/or below the patch or incorporated into the patch in some way. That'd likely have to be on HMRS to redesign their current system, but I wouldn't see it being too difficult.

As for the patrol cap, you're correct, it's now in the Air Force instruction and is no longer an Army only thing.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Mitchell 1969

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2018, 03:41:16 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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Colonel on the Uniform Committee s/he may be, but that doesn't make them the final arbiter for the decision. Staff officers aren't command officers.

About all it means is "To the best of my knowledge, as a member of the Uniform Committee and as someone currently assigned to Uniform project responsibilities, I am not aware of any decision being made or even discussed about OCPs"). Or something like that.

For all we (or the colonel) know(s), an order could come out tomorrow giving the green light to OCPs.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

PHall

Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2018, 03:41:16 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

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They won't be getting them because we haven't asked yet and the current members of the committee are not inclined to ask anytime soon.
AFAIK nobody has asked the Air Force how they feel on this subject.

LATORRECA

Quote from: PHall on August 27, 2018, 12:59:12 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 26, 2018, 03:41:16 AM
At the Uniform session, we were told that CAP will NOT be getting OCPs in the foreseeable future. This from a colonel on the Uniform Committee.

Sent using Tapatalk

They won't be getting them because we haven't asked yet and the current members of the committee are not inclined to ask anytime soon.
AFAIK nobody has asked the Air Force how they feel on this subject.
Chickens [emoji239] [emoji79][emoji79] scarycats


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MSG Mac

RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

PHall

Quote from: MSG Mac on August 27, 2018, 10:14:11 PM
RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform

When the BDU came out the Air Force and CAP had a plan within a year when CAP would transition.

Not saying we have to have it tomorrow, but planning now for an orderly transition would be just good management.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on August 28, 2018, 12:20:32 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on August 27, 2018, 10:14:11 PM
RE: OCP

1. The Air Force has only just announced the transition to OCP
2. If or when authorized CAP is the last in line to get them. I doubt we'll see them before the mandatory wear date which is somewhere in the mid 2020's
3. We've only had the ABU for a couple of years, let's get to the end of our own transition period (2020)before even thinking about a new uniform

When the BDU came out the Air Force and CAP had a plan within a year when CAP would transition.

Not saying we have to have it tomorrow, but planning now for an orderly transition would be just good management.

Planning-wise, that sounds appropriate. You always need to look 'down the road.'

The fact is that the initiation of ABUs in CAP came almost a decade after the Air Force started wearing them. And the transition in CAP just happened to extend into a time frame that coincidentally fell within a new uniform replacing the ABUs in the Active Duty fleet. The chips just fell that way.

BDUs are becoming more difficult to find in brand-new condition. ABUs will start to have that same effect during the transition into OCP for Ma Blue. The OCPs will be hard to find new once the Air Force picks its next uniform in 10 years. That's just how the game works.

PHall

The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: PHall on August 28, 2018, 04:01:50 PM
The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.

You are correct. Which, is good for us. To further things, IF any branch switches to a uniform that's not already in their inventory, it will be because EVERY branch is doing it. That's either going to slow down any adoption of a uniform past OCP, or everyone will go OCP now that AF and Army have it. Couple that with the prevalence of Multicam in the "tactical" world and we can see that OCP will surely be a good plan to get to.

But like I and others have said throughout this thread, CAP won't start a transition until everyone in Active, Guard, Reserves have them. We are last in line BUT, that's April 2021. Really, there is no reason we can't develop a plan, and have all the bugs solved long before we get to a phase in date. How awesome would that be if we had 2 years from announcement of us switching to when the phase in starts? How many revisions of the ABU wear memorandum did we get to before it was settled (is it all settled now with ABU)? Time is on our side on this one, so I started this thread so we could get ahead of the 8-ball for once.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


TheSkyHornet

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 28, 2018, 04:08:56 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 28, 2018, 04:01:50 PM
The big delay in CAP getting ABU's was due to a provision in a DoD authorization bill that wasn't aimed at us.
Took an override at the SAF level to get the authorization.
AFAIK this does not apply to the OCP.

You are correct. Which, is good for us. To further things, IF any branch switches to a uniform that's not already in their inventory, it will be because EVERY branch is doing it. That's either going to slow down any adoption of a uniform past OCP, or everyone will go OCP now that AF and Army have it. Couple that with the prevalence of Multicam in the "tactical" world and we can see that OCP will surely be a good plan to get to.

But like I and others have said throughout this thread, CAP won't start a transition until everyone in Active, Guard, Reserves have them. We are last in line BUT, that's April 2021. Really, there is no reason we can't develop a plan, and have all the bugs solved long before we get to a phase in date. How awesome would that be if we had 2 years from announcement of us switching to when the phase in starts? How many revisions of the ABU wear memorandum did we get to before it was settled (is it all settled now with ABU)? Time is on our side on this one, so I started this thread so we could get ahead of the 8-ball for once.

Not to ignore the previous point brought up about the ABU instructions not yet incorporated into the CAPRs after two years.

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

wacapgh

BTW - it will be released as CAPR 39-1, and we were told it is "going around for signatures" for a Q1 FY19 release, which extends to 31 DEC 2018.

ABU will be in the Utility Uniforms section. The layout of 39-1 was designed to mirror the AFI so the "reserved" chunk in the current 39-1? Not for ABU, but for Maternity Uniforms! It's blank because CAP is not authorized to wear them. "Wear appropriate Corporate uniforms" was the guidance given.