CPPT hypothetical

[umpirecali]

You plan a land navigation training exercise in a local state park.  The objective was to split the group in 2 teams where 2 different courses are laid out.  Each team would navigate their designated trail and after lunch the teams would switch and navigate the other trail.

16 cadets show up and 4 senior members show.  The cadets are a mixture of GTL's, GTM3's, and a couple GTM3's in training.  1 SM is MRO and plans to operate a base radio (she cannot go out into the woods for health reasons).  The 3 other remaining SM's are a GTL, a GTL in training, and a GTM1.  There was supposed to be another SM who is a GTL who cancelled at the last minute.  Can you still operate 2 teams out in the woods?   If so, one team would have only 1 SM. 

[lordmonar]

You need to SM present at each CAP activity.....and you should not have any SM alone with a single cadet.

So...yes you can send out two teams.  Nowhere as far as I can seen in the regulations does it say you must have two senior members supervising every separate group of cadets.

Also...unless you are on an actual mission number and actually sortieing a ground team...you don't necessarily have to have a GTL.

I caveat that last statement with the ORM for the actual situation in mind.  A compass course on a "state park" can run everything from a walk across what is effectively a nice golf course to tackling something like the Grand Canyon so you can use your best judgement on how much GTL leadership you need base on the situation.

[Spam]

Umpirecali:

From a Cadet Protection standpoint (only), I'd concur with MSGT Harris that you'd be covered just fine.

As a GBD, I would have concerns (cadet issues aside) about sending a team out onto a course of indeterminate leg lengths and numbers without a qualified GTL present. In that case, I'd probably want to know that both teams had accurate maps and adequate compasses for training, had working GPS units with go-to-base indication, and had radios (not just ISR/FRS radios) for contact, that regular radio check ins are planned along with NORDO procedures for loss of contact, and that the project officer had clearly established and rehearsed exercise area boundaries and "knock it off" times with all personnel.

V/R
Spam

[LSThiker]

Umpirecali:

From a Cadet Protection standpoint (only), I'd concur with MSGT Harris that you'd be covered just fine.

As a GBD, I would have concerns (cadet issues aside) about sending a team out onto a course of indeterminate leg lengths and numbers without a qualified GTL present. In that case, I'd probably want to know that both teams had accurate maps and adequate compasses for training, had working GPS units with go-to-base indication, and had radios (not just ISR/FRS radios) for contact, that regular radio check ins are planned along with NORDO procedures for loss of contact, and that the project officer had clearly established and rehearsed exercise area boundaries and "knock it off" times with all personnel.

Regardless of a GTL or not, you should be making sure they have accurate maps and workable compasses.  Anytime you send people out on a land nav course, there should always be a compass check station.  Even with new compasses that I was issued, I would find a few that were off by 5+ degrees.

As far as GPS and Radio well I assume he is taking them to Pocahontas State Park.  There are fairly well defined borders.  That is, hardball roads that surround the park and even cut through it.  So it would depend where in the park he is training.  Also, there is a nice river that cuts East/West through it that would act as a simple boundary.  It would depend on how far his points are.  In that area, I would probably just require an ISR and a radio check at the 1 hr mark.  Requiring GPS would probably be overkill as there are a few easy panic azimuths in the park.

I agree with Lordmonar that a simple ORM assessment is necessary.  No need to immediately overkill it by automatically requiring GPS, ISR/FRS, CAP radios, GTLs, etc, etc, etc.  Nevertheless, depending on certain conditions (such as if the course is miles long, no one in the squadron knows how to use a compass, etc) I would adjust my ORM.  Of course, if no one knows how to use a compass, I would probably use a football field or baseball park before going to a wooded state park.

Too many variables to really tell what an appropriate ORM would be for that activity based on the OP's description. 

[TheSkyHornet]

I think this conversation ended up diverting away from the original question regarding the pairing of a Senior Member alone with cadets, not so much about how to run a ground team/land nav exercise.

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

1 SM, 2 cadets
2 SM, 1 cadet

You do not need 2 senior members with each group (in this case, the ground teams) so long as you have multiple cadets in addition to a single senior member.

[jeders]

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

Don't forget the field rule of 4. I don't know if this particular training is far enough afield to require that as I don't know the training area, but keep that in mind.

[TheSkyHornet]

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

Don't forget the field rule of 4. I don't know if this particular training is far enough afield to require that as I don't know the training area, but keep that in mind.

Good point. If this is a wooded area where the group will be 15 minutes away (walking time) from a road/general access point, you would need 4 individuals at a minimum in the group. The purpose behind this is so in the event of an injury, one person can stay with the injured person and the other two can get help.

So, say you had 2 seniors and 2 cadets in a group. One cadet gets hurt. Should the other cadet stay with the injured cadet, or should a senior member stay with them? I would argue that I would be more comfortable with a senior member staying with the injured cadet, and the other senior member and cadet go off in search of help. Now you have a cadet and senior member paired together without anyone else.

Each situation is different, and when the time comes, make the call. Safety and lifesaving measures are first and foremost.

[umpirecali]

TheSkyHornet hit the nail on the head.  I was asking purely about cadet to senior member interactions.   I am not in cadet programs, so training exercises are where I interact with cadets the most so I am not as well versed as I should be.  We are running a training this Saturday and had a senior cancel, which got me thinking, which led me to re-read CAPR 52-10 and post this hypothetical.  Thanks for the responses.

I am the safety officer for my squadron, so I am always thinking about ORM.  We do an extensive brief before every activity.  This will be Pocahontas State Park.  We will actually be geocaching this time.  We have a GPS cache and I carry my own, but this exercise will be mostly map and compass on or just off marked trails.  We use the 1:24k topo map used on real missions. We have radios as mentioned in the OP and follow check-in procedures.  I myself am two tasks shy of GTL, but I don't think me having not demonstrated establishing a helicopter landing site and site surveillance will make us more or less safe  .    Many of the cadets coming have demonstrated at least basic proficiency with a compass, so I plan to par the experienced with the non.  I am a part of CAP and another SAR group that does FAR more real-world missions, so I get quite a bit of training in.   I think that should cover most of the concerns raised.

[Holding Pattern]

  I myself am two tasks shy of GTL, but I don't think me having not demonstrated establishing a helicopter landing site and site surveillance will make us more or less safe  .   

Well now you've done called Murphy in and he's gonna need a helo site on your exercise for some reason you can't forsee. 

[Flying Pig]

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

Don't forget the field rule of 4. I don't know if this particular training is far enough afield to require that as I don't know the training area, but keep that in mind.

Good point. If this is a wooded area where the group will be 15 minutes away (walking time) from a road/general access point, you would need 4 individuals at a minimum in the group. The purpose behind this is so in the event of an injury, one person can stay with the injured person and the other two can get help.

So, say you had 2 seniors and 2 cadets in a group. One cadet gets hurt. Should the other cadet stay with the injured cadet, or should a senior member stay with them? I would argue that I would be more comfortable with a senior member staying with the injured cadet, and the other senior member and cadet go off in search of help. Now you have a cadet and senior member paired together without anyone else.

Each situation is different, and when the time comes, make the call. Safety and lifesaving measures are first and foremost.

As you stated, out in the field, someone gets hurt..... CPPT is pretty much at the bottom of my list of priorities as far as a senior being alone with a cadet to go get help.   As we have all seen, I know people who would be completely paralyzed by policy and would spend more time trying to figure out a CPPT combo vs just getting the real world emergency handled accomplished.

Ive seen meetings where I was visiting where there were to SM's.  One was teaching a class to senior cadets and the other was going to take about 15 junior cadets outside for drill.  They decided that because of CPPT, both senior members had to be in one location, even though the were physically about 20 yards apart.  So the training for the senior cadets was cancelled and everyone went outside to drill so 2 senior members could be together.

[Flying Pig]

  I myself am two tasks shy of GTL, but I don't think me having not demonstrated establishing a helicopter landing site and site surveillance will make us more or less safe  .   

Well now you've done called Murphy in and he's gonna need a helo site on your exercise for some reason you can't forsee. 

I can tell you from real wold SAR helicopter flying experience...... the helicopter pilot could just about care less.  You dont need to be right where Im landing.  You can feel free to not act like you are in a hurricane while Im trying to land. Ive watched people attempt to marshal my helicopter into an LZ and they arent even looking at the helicopter because they have no eye protection and are getting blasted by dirt.  Tell me where you need me on the radio if you can,  tell me about any obstacles in the area and if you want to score MASSIVE awesomeness points have a way to show me which way the wind is coming from.    Smoke, tossing a shoving full of dry dirt in the air so I can see it blow away.  A sandwich baggy of white baby powder works great.  A 3-4' piece of yellow caution tape on a stick to make a wind sock is the best.   And when I start my approach... please don't keep throwing the baby powder of the dirt in the air.  If there is any debris in the area, move it, logs, trash.   Ive seen marshalers work so hard trying to give me hand and arm signals to go the exact spot they wanted me to go.  Ultimately, It goes where I decide it goes. The only real signal Im looking for is a frantic wave off.   But by keeping your arms moving down you at least confirm to me that Im not seeing any dangers and neither are you.   OH..... and lastly.... dont do the cut sign across the neck to tell me to shut my engine off.  I don't know how many times I get that.  Not a CAP member, but I had a Fire Dept guy do that.  I just kept giving him the thumbs up.  He finally comes over to the helicopter and actually tells me "Shut it down!!!" screaming at me over the engine noise of a Huey and the ear protection.  There are a number of reasons why I would or would not.  Time frame Ill be shut down.  If its 10-15 minutes, Ill stay running.  Altitudes vs the type of helicopters I may leave it running because I may not be able to get it started again.  Winds.  If the winds are up, I may elect to leave it running at idle.  I may know that I have a weak battery and Id rather not risk not being able to have enough battery power and risk hot starting it. 
Lastly, if you have comms... just talk to the pilot.  Ask the pilot if they need a marshaler.  Most will tell you no and ask you just to keep an eye out for any hazards.  And if you have radio comms, stick with that over hand signals.

Ultimately you have to compete the tasks needed for CAP to get the qualification and stick with CAP methods.  But thats some other advice. 

[TheSkyHornet]

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

Don't forget the field rule of 4. I don't know if this particular training is far enough afield to require that as I don't know the training area, but keep that in mind.

Good point. If this is a wooded area where the group will be 15 minutes away (walking time) from a road/general access point, you would need 4 individuals at a minimum in the group. The purpose behind this is so in the event of an injury, one person can stay with the injured person and the other two can get help.

So, say you had 2 seniors and 2 cadets in a group. One cadet gets hurt. Should the other cadet stay with the injured cadet, or should a senior member stay with them? I would argue that I would be more comfortable with a senior member staying with the injured cadet, and the other senior member and cadet go off in search of help. Now you have a cadet and senior member paired together without anyone else.

Each situation is different, and when the time comes, make the call. Safety and lifesaving measures are first and foremost.

As you stated, out in the field, someone gets hurt..... CPPT is pretty much at the bottom of my list of priorities as far as a senior being alone with a cadet to go get help.   As we have all seen, I know people who would be completely paralyzed by policy and would spend more time trying to figure out a CPPT combo vs just getting the real world emergency handled accomplished.

Ive seen meetings where I was visiting where there were to SM's.  One was teaching a class to senior cadets and the other was going to take about 15 junior cadets outside for drill.  They decided that because of CPPT, both senior members had to be in one location, even though the were physically about 20 yards apart.  So the training for the senior cadets was cancelled and everyone went outside to drill so 2 senior members could be together.

*faceplam*

It's stories that like that which make me boil. Like you said, people are paralyzed by policy rather than being able to make decisions based on the immediate situation.

This is why we do a risk assessment before activities such as this (GT/SAR, and we plan for alternative scenarios that may happen. Don't send someone out into the field knowing that if something bad happens, you can't fix the situation. However, there are cases where we just need to get the job done, and we're going to go out and do the job as it lays. In those cases, when adverse situations arise, do what needs to be done to survive. Overcome and adapt. Standing there goes "Oh crap, I don't know what to do!" makes it worse. Get the job done.

[Tim Day]

When there's a senior member involved, you should have a group of at least 3 people present.

Don't forget the field rule of 4. I don't know if this particular training is far enough afield to require that as I don't know the training area, but keep that in mind.

Good point. If this is a wooded area where the group will be 15 minutes away (walking time) from a road/general access point, you would need 4 individuals at a minimum in the group. The purpose behind this is so in the event of an injury, one person can stay with the injured person and the other two can get help.

So, say you had 2 seniors and 2 cadets in a group. One cadet gets hurt. Should the other cadet stay with the injured cadet, or should a senior member stay with them? I would argue that I would be more comfortable with a senior member staying with the injured cadet, and the other senior member and cadet go off in search of help. Now you have a cadet and senior member paired together without anyone else.

Each situation is different, and when the time comes, make the call. Safety and lifesaving measures are first and foremost.

As you stated, out in the field, someone gets hurt..... CPPT is pretty much at the bottom of my list of priorities as far as a senior being alone with a cadet to go get help.   As we have all seen, I know people who would be completely paralyzed by policy and would spend more time trying to figure out a CPPT combo vs just getting the real world emergency handled accomplished.

Ive seen meetings where I was visiting where there were to SM's.  One was teaching a class to senior cadets and the other was going to take about 15 junior cadets outside for drill.  They decided that because of CPPT, both senior members had to be in one location, even though the were physically about 20 yards apart.  So the training for the senior cadets was cancelled and everyone went outside to drill so 2 senior members could be together.

Of course, I would point out that taking care of the cadet is the top priority of CPPT and that by making the right decision to get the cadet help while not leaving an injured cadet without an adult nearby is acting "in loco parentis", which is fully in line with CAPR 52-10.

I recommend anyone who works with cadets regularly just go take the cadet protection advanced course, even if you're not in a duty position that requires it. The cadet protection policy is much more thoroughly and thoughtfully covered in that course, at least in my experience.

[ZigZag911]

Sometimes we have to use common sense...even in CAP!

[TheSkyHornet]

Sometimes we have to use common sense...even in CAP!

That's just a myth 

[jdh]

  I myself am two tasks shy of GTL, but I don't think me having not demonstrated establishing a helicopter landing site and site surveillance will make us more or less safe  .   

Well now you've done called Murphy in and he's gonna need a helo site on your exercise for some reason you can't forsee. 

I can tell you from real wold SAR helicopter flying experience...... the helicopter pilot could just about care less.  You dont need to be right where Im landing.  You can feel free to not act like you are in a hurricane while Im trying to land. Ive watched people attempt to marshal my helicopter into an LZ and they arent even looking at the helicopter because they have no eye protection and are getting blasted by dirt.  Tell me where you need me on the radio if you can,  tell me about any obstacles in the area and if you want to score MASSIVE awesomeness points have a way to show me which way the wind is coming from.    Smoke, tossing a shoving full of dry dirt in the air so I can see it blow away.  A sandwich baggy of white baby powder works great.  A 3-4' piece of yellow caution tape on a stick to make a wind sock is the best.   And when I start my approach... please don't keep throwing the baby powder of the dirt in the air.  If there is any debris in the area, move it, logs, trash.   Ive seen marshalers work so hard trying to give me hand and arm signals to go the exact spot they wanted me to go.  Ultimately, It goes where I decide it goes. The only real signal Im looking for is a frantic wave off.   But by keeping your arms moving down you at least confirm to me that Im not seeing any dangers and neither are you.   OH..... and lastly.... dont do the cut sign across the neck to tell me to shut my engine off.  I don't know how many times I get that.  Not a CAP member, but I had a Fire Dept guy do that.  I just kept giving him the thumbs up.  He finally comes over to the helicopter and actually tells me "Shut it down!!!" screaming at me over the engine noise of a Huey and the ear protection.  There are a number of reasons why I would or would not.  Time frame Ill be shut down.  If its 10-15 minutes, Ill stay running.  Altitudes vs the type of helicopters I may leave it running because I may not be able to get it started again.  Winds.  If the winds are up, I may elect to leave it running at idle.  I may know that I have a weak battery and Id rather not risk not being able to have enough battery power and risk hot starting it. 
Lastly, if you have comms... just talk to the pilot.  Ask the pilot if they need a marshaler.  Most will tell you no and ask you just to keep an eye out for any hazards.  And if you have radio comms, stick with that over hand signals.

Ultimately you have to compete the tasks needed for CAP to get the qualification and stick with CAP methods.  But thats some other advice.

I am a Life Flight Landing Zone coordinator and spent the vast majority of my time in the Army working on, in and around helicopters. When I looked at the task guide in regards to Helo landing sites all I could do was shake my head. Part of it seems like you're trying to set up a rolling runway for a small plane and a few of the others seem like they are putting people and materials in places that can do more harm than good.

The way I teach (after going over the section in the CAP guide) is that you find a flat area at least 75'x75', with no obstacles within one and a half times their heights from the LZ, mark the 4 corners and mark where the wind is coming from. If you have a way to wet down the LZ do so to reduce dust and debris from getting airborne. Radio the pilot with the location and step away. I also teach how to set up a multi helo landing site and a helo staging area for different types of helo's.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Of course, I would point out that taking care of the cadet is the top priority of CPPT and that by making the right decision to get the cadet help while not leaving an injured cadet without an adult nearby is acting "in loco parentis", which is fully in line with CAPR 52-10.

I recommend anyone who works with cadets regularly just go take the cadet protection advanced course, even if you're not in a duty position that requires it. The cadet protection policy is much more thoroughly and thoughtfully covered in that course, at least in my experience.

:clap: :clap:
...and that re-write requires the application of common sense when dealing with the unplanned events of life.

[umpirecali]

  I myself am two tasks shy of GTL, but I don't think me having not demonstrated establishing a helicopter landing site and site surveillance will make us more or less safe  .   

Well now you've done called Murphy in and he's gonna need a helo site on your exercise for some reason you can't forsee. 

I can tell you from real wold SAR helicopter flying experience...... the helicopter pilot could just about care less.  You dont need to be right where Im landing.  You can feel free to not act like you are in a hurricane while Im trying to land. Ive watched people attempt to marshal my helicopter into an LZ and they arent even looking at the helicopter because they have no eye protection and are getting blasted by dirt.  Tell me where you need me on the radio if you can,  tell me about any obstacles in the area and if you want to score MASSIVE awesomeness points have a way to show me which way the wind is coming from.    Smoke, tossing a shoving full of dry dirt in the air so I can see it blow away.  A sandwich baggy of white baby powder works great.  A 3-4' piece of yellow caution tape on a stick to make a wind sock is the best.   And when I start my approach... please don't keep throwing the baby powder of the dirt in the air.  If there is any debris in the area, move it, logs, trash.   Ive seen marshalers work so hard trying to give me hand and arm signals to go the exact spot they wanted me to go.  Ultimately, It goes where I decide it goes. The only real signal Im looking for is a frantic wave off.   But by keeping your arms moving down you at least confirm to me that Im not seeing any dangers and neither are you.   OH..... and lastly.... dont do the cut sign across the neck to tell me to shut my engine off.  I don't know how many times I get that.  Not a CAP member, but I had a Fire Dept guy do that.  I just kept giving him the thumbs up.  He finally comes over to the helicopter and actually tells me "Shut it down!!!" screaming at me over the engine noise of a Huey and the ear protection.  There are a number of reasons why I would or would not.  Time frame Ill be shut down.  If its 10-15 minutes, Ill stay running.  Altitudes vs the type of helicopters I may leave it running because I may not be able to get it started again.  Winds.  If the winds are up, I may elect to leave it running at idle.  I may know that I have a weak battery and Id rather not risk not being able to have enough battery power and risk hot starting it. 
Lastly, if you have comms... just talk to the pilot.  Ask the pilot if they need a marshaler.  Most will tell you no and ask you just to keep an eye out for any hazards.  And if you have radio comms, stick with that over hand signals.

Ultimately you have to compete the tasks needed for CAP to get the qualification and stick with CAP methods.  But thats some other advice.

I am a Life Flight Landing Zone coordinator and spent the vast majority of my time in the Army working on, in and around helicopters. When I looked at the task guide in regards to Helo landing sites all I could do was shake my head. Part of it seems like you're trying to set up a rolling runway for a small plane and a few of the others seem like they are putting people and materials in places that can do more harm than good.

The way I teach (after going over the section in the CAP guide) is that you find a flat area at least 75'x75', with no obstacles within one and a half times their heights from the LZ, mark the 4 corners and mark where the wind is coming from. If you have a way to wet down the LZ do so to reduce dust and debris from getting airborne. Radio the pilot with the location and step away. I also teach how to set up a multi helo landing site and a helo staging area for different types of helo's.

JDH and Flying Pig,  I get all that.  The point I was making was, the finishing of a task does not make one a better GTL, per se.  CAP focus more on the task in the SQRT and not so much on being a good ground team leader; the decision making, the judgement, the strategy, and the maturity.  When I complete my last remaining tasks, nothing magical will happen to me.  I will still be a relative inexperience searcher, but rapidly getting better.  This was all in response to the people saying "I wouldn't go out without a GTL". 

Oh by the way, we had a great time this weekend! I'd post a picture, but I know some of you would spend three pages commenting what's wrong with everyone's uniform. 

[TheSkyHornet]

It's the responsibility of the Stan Eval to make sure you accomplish and demonstrate those keys areas of, not just skill, but also judgment.

It depends on what exactly the specific intent of the exercise is. Training and preparedness is different than signing someone off for a qualification, and if you need the field exercise to sign someone off and don't have the ability to do so, carry on with the training and sign them off later. We can't accommodate every single odd scenario. Make do with what you have, and if it is enough to go out in the field but not "qualify," oh well. At least the unit got to go out and learn while hopefully having fun doing so, so long as safety isn't compromised.

Sounds like it worked out well for you guys in the end.