Uniform for Augmentation

[RiverAux]

This was lightly touched on in one of the other augmentation threads....

What uniform should CAP members wear if an AF or AirNG augmentation program ever really get developed? 

Obviously, this should be left to the discretion of the AF unit commander where the augmentation takes place, but there are some side issues that might need to be aired:

1)  Rank.  
There may be a legitimate interest in the AF people not wanting CAP members to wear rank (avoid confusion, etc.) but they may not care. 

When CG Aux augments they don't wear rank insignia.  This isn't any big deal since they wear pin-on rank, it is easy to change this at a moments notice.  CAP has sew-on insignia only so having to switch back and forth isn't feasible on the BDUs.  Not problem at all on the service uniforms, just take off the epalets.   

With SDFs their rank is "real" and as legitimate as the NG members they are working with, so they just wear their regular uniforms as prescribed for the job they're doing. 

If the AF was to make a big deal out of this it could be a problem.  After all, who wants to buy separate BDUs just to wear while augmenting? 

2)  AF-style vs CAP corporate vs CAP civilian uniform 
Personally, I would favor restricting augmentation to CAP members wearing the AF-style uniform (as prescribed by the AF unit commander) only.  These folks would be working side-by-side with AF members and I think it would be appropriate to only use people meeting the AF-style uniform standards.  I personally wouldn't want to see any of the corporate uniforms being worn.  However, depending on the job, I wouldn't have a problem with someone wearing the golf-shirt uniform as it would more or less fit in with what you might expect from a civilian employee also working around the base. 

 

[lordmonar]

Well....if the USAF was going to accept that we are in fact an true auxillary and they were not just giving us lip service about our rank and uniforms.  Any CAP uniform USAF or Corporate should be acceptable and we should wear our rank.

If they cannot accept that...then we should seriously look at our relationship with the USAF.

[Pylon]

I don't see why we need to change our uniforms based on what we happen to be doing at the time.  Our uniforms are quite distinctive enough to show that we're not actual Armed Forces personnel, and similar enough in overall appearance to show we're a part of the Air Force family.

Where's the problem we're trying to solve here?

[RiverAux]

The example has already been set here --- if CG Aux members have to remove rank insignia to augment, don't think that the AF won't consider it.  I was just bringing it up as something that very well could arise should augmentation get serious consideration by the AF. 

[DNall]

I think this is cart way out in front of the horse.... but I'll play along briefly.

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want. Some things will be like that. In cases where they've put some our people in an ops center environment they've wanted them in uniform, generally didn't specify which one, just so it looked official, in general though they've prefered the AF-style in those cases. I don't think it's a matter of confusion in crisis they've been worrie dabout so much as people stopping to figure out who the hell you are & what you're doing in their op center. They know their chain of command already & aren't about to take an order from anyone outside it, be it a CAP Captain or a 20-star AF general. On the other hand there are plenty of times I can think of where tehy would prefer us not to be in AF-style uniforms for practical, authority, and PR reasons, that's fine to. Whatever the case, it'll be up to the office receiving the help to specify appropriate UOD for augmenting folks.

I think the deal with CG is that their uniforms are less distinctive in certain ways that are particularly confusing to civilians. CAP is more distinct in most areas. Anyway, lets get a program, then worry about what they want us to wear while doing it.

[lordmonar]

The example has already been set here --- if CG Aux members have to remove rank insignia to augment, don't think that the AF won't consider it.  I was just bringing it up as something that very well could arise should augmentation get serious consideration by the AF.

The difference being the rank of file of the CG AUX do not wear rank...only the unit leaders.

[lordmonar]

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

[DNall]

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

What? If anything it'd be the other way around. What if the AF really wants us as their Aux, but wants us to get it togetehr & live up to some standards a little more in the hemisphere they work in? They've never in history endorsed the idea of even having corporate style uniforms, much less what they look like. I doubt most situations will even specify a distinction between AF-style & Corporates, but I think there will generally be a pref by them for AF-style, and if ever a distinction is made I think it'll be based on the job at hand. If you don't want to follow the conditions the CC involved sets then you just don't get to participate in that opportunity.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

Okay, that sounds fine, what's your point. If AF specifically wants that person in a green flt suit then they need to find someone that can wear it to do the job or issue a waiver to this guy. I don't see why it would be a problem to wear the blue one though, especially in a space related setting.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

My experience has been the AF bends over backwards to support CAP well beyond its actual worth, not to mention meassurable return. I think AF has every right to be pissed when someone affiliated with them makes the service look like bumbling idiots. I think they have every right to expect their auxiliary to live up to at least a recognizable shadow of their standards. I think you're being awfully hard on the AF considering how much they have & continue to do for us when they really don't have to. I think you'll find the only thing stopping CAP from being a serious Aux portion of the total force, or from doing incredibly important work is CAP itself - and mostly by that I mean we hold standards SO low that our least common denomonator is just not acceptable to a lot of professional airmen as part of their service faimly. You don't like how they feel about us, change the things that make them feel that way, don't blame them.

[DrJbdm]

So true, we are our own worst enemy. We want to include everybody which means we can have NO standards because invariably someone would come along who didn't meet the standard no matter how lax it was and couldn't join...and heaven help us, that just wouldn't be acceptable. Go figure why we have such membership retention problems.

[RiverAux]

I think this is cart way out in front of the horse.... but I'll play along briefly.

If we worried about the relative positions of the cart and the horse, this board would be a very quiet place....

The difference being the rank of file of the CG AUX do not wear rank...only the unit leaders.

Depends on your definition of "leader" to some extent.  If you hold a staff officer position at the local level you get the equivalent of the 2nd Lt. (Ensign) insignia.  It has a little red "A" in it, but they are so small and hard to see that you have to be in somebody's face to notice. 

In practical terms, just about everybody in CG Aux has held a local staff job unless they are brand new to the organization, so a very high percentage of CG Auxies have some level of "officer" rank on them most of the time. 

As quite a few CG units are actually led by NCOs, even this low level of "apparent rank" could cause some (minor) problems). 

[Dragoon]

I think it would depend HIGHLY on the job at hand. If you are working in maint for instance, do you really want that person in highly disinguishable BDUs or do you want them in BBDUs that look like the transient alert maint crews? Or in a joint situation would you want them in BBDUs where you might at first glance think og them as Navy/CG?

It should not matter at all because they are all CAP uniforms.  If the USAF did not want our members to wear corporates while augmenting...then it would be the final and absolute proof that they do not consider us a true auxillary.

Kach mentioned that in doing tours down in Florida the AF asked them to wear flight suits. I suppose that's because it's UOD for them & gives some flair to the duty, but it also is the uniform of ours that's most confusable with the AF & I imagine in that case that's what they want.

But what happens when the large and harry CAP member wants to augment?  Yes he should wear the flight suit...but because of USAF rules...it would have to be the Blue Flight Suit.

And if the USAF had a problem with that...again...they are showing that they do not respect our organisation.

Well, more fairly it means that they don't respect all of the interanal rules we've made.  They could still respect the organization, and just require us to change a few things to fit in better with them.

In the case of the tour guide things, the appearance matters - and in the same way that the Air Force Honor Guard will only accept tall folks, the Space Center Tour Guide program may only accept thin, short haired, clean shaven folks who can wear Nomex flight suits.  That seems reasonable, given what they want done.

My guess is that yeah, if we had a nationwide USAF augmentation program, something like the CGAUX "take the rank off" would probably happen, especially if the augmentation job put us working for USAF NCOs.

[MIKE]

Technically Auxies can wear office insignia ashore... Or even afloat as pax, unless directed otherwise:

A.9. Assignment to Duty A Coast Guard authority may prescribe an Auxiliary uniform as a condition for assignment to a specific duty. When performing duty on a Coast Guard vessel, Auxiliarists shall wear a uniform consistent with those of the vessel's personnel. Auxiliarists, when working as crew on a Coast Guard vessel, shall wear only the
member device (Auxiliary emblem) as collar insignia.

[DNall]

Well, more fairly it means that they don't respect all of the interanal rules we've made.  They could still respect the organization, and just require us to change a few things to fit in better with them.

That's true.

My guess is that yeah, if we had a nationwide USAF augmentation program, something like the CGAUX "take the rank off" would probably happen, especially if the augmentation job put us working for USAF NCOs.

I don't know if that's the case. They've never really had a problem with people wearing officer grade & they seem to like us in distinctive uniforms that still obviously belong to the AF. Anyway, I don't think they'd ask you to take off the insignia. They do that in the CG cause it is confusable & they interact with the public a lot more than the AF. That's less of an issue w/ CAP. I think there would be some jobs they would prefer you in an AF-style uniform, some where they specifically do not & ask that you wear corporates, and some where they ask you not to wear a uniform at all maybe just a nametag or not even that. I do think it's important in this process to distinguish CAP members from civilian employees. Both because you're a volunteer & because we want people to know it's CAP helping them out.

Like I said it's all going to depend on the job. I don't think SDF or CGAux are necessarily the best examples to look to on this particular issue. I also don't think it matters in the slightest to AF. They will care about the program itself & of course would have authority to set UOD while working for them. There's no discussion to have beyond that.

[MississippiFlyboy]

I think the removal of rank is an excellent idea for augmentation.  It would help to keep out those that want to play with big blue for the wrong reasons...i.e. a CAP officer trying to throw his rank around which I have seen on way to many occasions when interacting with AD/Guard/Reserve components. It puts all augmentees on an  even playing field and puts the focus on the mission where it belongs.

[DrJbdm]

Lets stop trying to make CAP more into the CG Aux. Rank on or off who cares. Honestly, I do not think AF is going to give a flying flip either way. besides if you took the rank off of the blues we would look like a bunch of AF Airmen basics.

Lets work on getting them to respect us more and perhaps they will offer us a chance to augment the force. Right now we are just too much of an embarrassment to them. We also need to define where we could augment them, right now we only augment with Chaplains and then only those Chaplains that have met the Air Force educational requirements...ie: College degree.

We would also have to meet the Air Force educational requirements for playing in other fields we wanted to augment in as well and if that meant a college degree then yes, only those of us with a degree would be able to serve. Likely they would want to hold us to some resemblance of AF Officer standards, at least thats my feeling. Look at what they did with Chaplains, only those with an accredited college degree who also meet AF chaplain standards can augment AF. Maybe if the rest of us mirrored AF Officer standards a bit more we might get them to let us augment in other areas.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Rank on or off who cares.

The military does...rank may be meaningless in CAP, but it has a very real function in the Armed Forces and SDFs.  If you have a bunch of field grade officers working under an NCO (which you will deal with way more than an O) that represents an issue because our officers have no command authority and it makes it hard on the NCO who has to figure out how to manage a bunch of senior officers.  NCOs run the military and often have more power than junior and some senior officers, but when push comes to shove, an order (good or bad) from a commissioned officer is just that a legal ORDER.  Our officers have the appearance of that authority to the uninitiated and that's where problems could occur. 

I'm not trying to transform CAP ino the CG Aux, but the CG has it right on this one, strip the collar device, give someone a job and let them do it.  When we play in our sandbox we use our rank and organization, when we play with Big Blue use the method that eliminates problems - i.e. our screwy command and rank structure - albeit temporarily of course  gotta put those butter bars back at some point to impress the ladies   

[DrJbdm]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

Honestly folks, having rank on our shoulders isn't going to matter when it comes time to augment for the AF, and if it was going to cause a problem they would tell us what to wear. Look at the precedence that's being set with the limited amount of augmentation we do now, they don't have us remove our rank then and they actually do want us in blues. And believe me, augmenting as Chaplains puts CAP way out in the front for being seen. Hasn't been a problem yet.

  It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"


last time I tried to impress the ladies with those butter bars, they laughed at me...oops wait, that was my wife who was laughing! 

[DNall]

Beyond insulting them with bad appearance, behavior, or standards, I promise you the AF doesn't give one flip about our uniforms in any context; and, no aiman on the planet thinks you're a real officer. They aren't going to accept or decline an augmentation program based on uniform, & specifically if you wear grade or not. THEY will decide if they want to go forward with an augmentation program based on its own merits & requirements, THEY will define what roles we will & will not play at any given point in the process, THEY will pick which of our members can participate & establish requirements for opportunities THEY give us, and THEY will tell you what uniform or lack thereof THEY want you to wear while doing the work. There is no point in talking about except to say that the proposal would include an explicit statement that the AF, & specifically the CC of the unit being augmented, are teh soul determiner of UOD & standards for augmentees.

The CGAux is generally bad example for us to follow. They got their thing that's tailored to their parent service. There are SOME similiarities & SOME things that can be learned from them, BUT the nature of their parent service is SO different from teh AF that you might as well be comparing the girl scouts to PJs. The same is true of SDFs. There are things to learn from them & in some ways there are similiar, but in otherways they might as well be from Mars. The CG & NG have found ways to work with their auxiliary organizations & use them from augmentation. Great, that's a good idea we can look at w/ AF... comparison ends & is not further referenced.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

That's just it, spend any time around the Air Force or ANG and it happens a lot...some mistake us for commissioned officers and some think we are like the salvation army.  I've seen bases issue out DOD base stickers with the "officer" designation to CAP Officers because they didn't know any better and i've also been denied access to a base in a CAP vehicle and had to use my military ID to get the van in the base.  The majority of the AD/Guard/Reserve know very little about CAP and many don't even know we exist.  I'm not so much worried about the Air Force NCO being being able handle a CAP Officer but rather a CAP officer being able to handle an Air Force NCO if you get my drift.  And let me clarify here before i get jumped on - I'm referring to the self-aggrandizing officers that have ego/power problems, don't play well with others, etc, etc and we've got a bunch of those.  These are the types who would jump at the chance to play "Air Force" and could very easily torpedo the program before it has a chance to succeed if ever implemented.  Chaplains have less of an issue with this because all Chaplains are officers.  Working with the AF while doing our own ops is a whole different issue than sending personnel on a base to work directly for the AF/Guard/Reserve.

[DrJbdm]

I'm referring to the self-aggrandizing officers that have ego/power problems, don't play well with others, etc, etc and we've got a bunch of those.  These are the types who would jump at the chance to play "Air Force" and could very easily torpedo the program before it has a chance to succeed if ever implemented.

  And this is the reason why we must have REAL standards for becoming an Officer. Someone who has to work at becoming an Officer and had to qualify for the position with a real set of standards and training isn't someone who's likely to act a fool and torpedo the program.

  But as DNall said, if and when a Augmentation program ever developed, it would be restricted to those the Air Force liked and wanted. and in all reality it may be only open to those who meet height/weight requirements. What AF wants, AF gets. They set the rules by which we play.

[Major_Chuck]

Each Senior Officer would hold a Flight Officer Grade corresponding to their level of progression in the Professional Development Program.

Complete Level One:  Authorized Grade is F0-1
Complete Levle Two:  Authorized Grade is FO-2
Complete Level Three:  FO 3
Complete Level Four:  FO 4
Complete Level Five:  FO 5

Only those in current Command and Staff Positions would hold Officer Grades

Squadron Commander:  Captain
Group Commander:  Major
Wing Commander:  Colonel  (Vice Commander and COS Lieutenant Colonel)

Staff Officers at Squadron Level:  Lieutenant
Staff Officers at Group Level:  Captain
Staff Officers at Wing Level:  Captain and Major (Depending upon position)

Region Commanders:  Colonel, 
Vice Commander:  Lieutenant Colonel
Region CoS:  Lieutenant Colonel

National Commander:  Brigadier General
National Vice Commander:  Colonel
National CoS:  Colonel

When member is no longer in a position they no longer wear grade of office but return to FO Grades.

No colonel and general officer grades for life.

[arajca]

Any NCO you are working for while augmenting isn't going to have ANY problems whatsoever with our rank, NONE, he or she will be running the show and every AD Airmen knows that. You just try and give a AF NCO an order and they will tell you where to shove that order real quick like in a hurry.

An NCO will not tell you where to shove the order. They will politely take you aside and explain in detail exactly why your order is unlikely to be followed. Believe it or not, NCO's do not like appearance of impropriety anymore than an officer does. Besides, having the self control to explain the issue to an officer brings much respect from their followers.

Honestly folks, having rank on our shoulders isn't going to matter when it comes time to augment for the AF, and if it was going to cause a problem they would tell us what to wear. Look at the precedence that's being set with the limited amount of augmentation we do now, they don't have us remove our rank then and they actually do want us in blues.

Gotta agree with this logic. And if CAP does expand its augmentation, the AF will make it blindingly clear what will and will not be worn.

And believe me, augmenting as Chaplains puts CAP way out in the front for being seen. Hasn't been a problem yet.

Bad example. Military chaplains are officers. Most have no command authority.

It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"

You aren't supposed to tell anyone that. It's cheating.

[DNall]

Each Senior Officer...

That's dumb for a couple reasons. First of all, positions aren't slotted by grade in the military because it looks good that way, it's done ONLY because they've determined that the person minimally qualified for that job will be at a level in their career that corresponds to that grade. If you just put bars on someone because of the position they hold then you've completely defeated the purpose of having grade at all & negated the whole concept of how & why a military system works. This isn't the CGAux, and what they do is pretty silly. Grade is meaningful when it's based on a combination of experience, REAL professional development, and merit over a career. WHEN grade indicates THOSE factors then it can & shoud be a determiner of who holds what jobs, and should give you authority over others. Anything else is just rearranging the chairs to cover for our inadequacy.

Second, the AF has no interest in us using any kind of WO system or in any other way departing from their system. Follow the leader & play by their rules.

Now that said, that post was WAY off topic.

It's sort of like the argument we keep having over the TPU, there are some people here who really think it isn't distinct enough. this rank issue is the same thing, we are bringing up issues where there are no issues. Let there be a problem before we fix the problem. If your sink isn't leaking, don't go trying to fix it. It's like the US Government motto: "If it ain't broke, keep fixing it till it is!"

Problem is AF isn;t allowed to correct us on some things even when they're really pissed off, it also counts w/ the small things tyhat would be easily fixed if they could just order a slight change or cuase an IG investigation to be more on the level. However, when things are outside their control & snowball up bigger & bigger till they are backed into a corner & snap on things they do control. That's how we went from blue to maroon grade slides back around the late-80s/early-90s, that's what caused us to lose our perm Aux status in 2000, it's caused numerous budget adjustments, it's why you can't run down to DRMO & sign out anything you want or need, it's why we don't have encampments on AFBs, all of that has been directly related to CAP being stupid & AF not having the authority from Congress to do anything about it, and been slapped down by Congress a couple times (including in 2000) when they tried to exceed theri authority.

It's best for CAP to be sensitive to these things & proactive in correcting probelms before they contribute negatively to our relationship with the AF.

[DrJbdm]

An NCO will not tell you where to shove the order. They will politely take you aside and explain in detail exactly why your order is unlikely to be followed. Believe it or not, NCO's do not like appearance of impropriety anymore than an officer does. Besides, having the self control to explain the issue to an officer brings much respect from their followers. 

  you are absolutely correct, An NCO is first and formost a true professional. I have seen NCOs correct Officers before and it's always been done gently and with great results.

[Major_Chuck]

Each Senior Officer...

That's dumb for a couple reasons. First of all, positions aren't slotted by grade in the military because it looks good that way, it's done ONLY because they've determined that the person minimally qualified for that job will be at a level in their career that corresponds to that grade. If you just put bars on someone because of the position they hold then you've completely defeated the purpose of having grade at all & negated the whole concept of how & why a military system works. This isn't the CGAux, and what they do is pretty silly. Grade is meaningful when it's based on a combination of experience, REAL professional development, and merit over a career. WHEN grade indicates THOSE factors then it can & shoud be a determiner of who holds what jobs, and should give you authority over others. Anything else is just rearranging the chairs to cover for our inadequacy.

Second, the AF has no interest in us using any kind of WO system or in any other way departing from their system. Follow the leader & play by their rules.

Now that said, that post was WAY off topic.

Perhaps a little off topic but not "dumb".  There have been other suggestions on these boards that are worse. 

If I recall the original post, the question was 'what uniform to wear if we are ever used to augment the military components.  Wearing this grade would eliminate a lot of confusion by those who are unfamiliar with our program.

[DNall]

Perhaps a little off topic but not "dumb".  There have been other suggestions on these boards that are worse. 

If I recall the original post, the question was 'what uniform to wear if we are ever used to augment the military components.  Wearing this grade would eliminate a lot of confusion by those who are unfamiliar with our program.

There are other threads you can go for that, and in which I'll be happy to further explain why such a system completely defeats the purpose of having grade in the first place.

Now then, how would a FO grade system that the AF is not now & never will be familiar with (based on the size of our program & level of interaction possible), going to lessen confusion? They really have no problem with us wearing officer grade. It's some of the people we put it on that's an issue, and the level of accountability. The only time you'll be wearing an AF-style uniform is when you're in a high visability or non-critical position where it doesn't matter if anyone confuses you with an AF officer. If you're going to be in a situation where such a thing would be at issue, I think they might ask you to wear the corporate style or just civies. There is no issue with uniforms for this program, or really in general, the only issue that exists is the people in them & what they're doing.

[Dragoon]

Now then, how would a FO grade system that the AF is not now & never will be familiar with (based on the size of our program & level of interaction possible), going to lessen confusion?

Simple.

All USAF personnel, regardless of their knowlege of CAP, would realize that CAP folks have no command authority over USAF folks and visa versa.

USAF folks know that they take orders from those with more stripes, bars, leaves, eagles and stars than they have.  And they GIVE orders to with fewer stripes, bars, leaves and eagles than they have.

By removing stripes, bars, leaves, eagles and stars from our folks, it makes it inherently clear, at a glance that we are different.  And that any command relationships will be because of position assignment, not because of what's on the collar.

They don't NEED to understand our system.  Just to know, at a glance, that it is completely different from their system (which it is.)  By this simple measure, we eliminate all direct comparisons between CAP officers and USAF officers, and the confusion that goes along with it.

[MississippiFlyboy]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

I have yet to hear a good argument why rank is important if augmenting the USAF.  I can think of many why it's not. 

[Dragoon]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

[arajca]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

[Dragoon]

Or we could just take away the rank temporarily for augmentation purposes and be done with the whole mess. No confusion, Simple, Uniform...

An elegant solution.  Truthfully, rank could also be removed for ES, since the "ranking" guy is the IC, regardless of grade....

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

Curse you, you've seen through my fiendish plan!   

That's why I'd like rank either

1) To mean something - meaning it's tied to one's current level of authority or responsibility

or

2) To not look like USAF rank, since we use it totally differently (a symbol of training completed vs a symbol of authority)

[MississippiFlyboy]

Following that logic (you knew it was coming), rank could be dropped for regular meetings, since the unit commander is in charge, regardless of grade.

So we're back to the "what purpose does rank serve" arguements.

In our own organization, it shows the level of knowledge or prior military experience, but when dealing with the AF it can misconstrued, misused, abused....etc.  Think of all the times you've seen the "i wanna be just like an air force officer" mentality in CAP and then imagine that MAJ Bagadonuts goes off to his augmentation assignment for the day but before he can go inside and get a cup of coffee, he has to lap the building for about 5 minutes just to get in all the salutes before a busy day of trying to convince A1C Newguy how he's just like a real officer.  I can hear the conversation right now...

"So there i was Airman.....on a black ops tactical SAR mission at 30 ft AGL when the engine just quit...."

[DNall]

Actually grade should be highly meaningful, but tied to postion is counter productive cause it means nothing about that person's qualification. The reasons grade & position have any connection at all is the position requires a minimum skill level that you're required to have in order to reach the grade associated with it.

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that. Anyway, what's teh point of grade in the AF, everyone in the unit know the chain of command & knows you're not in it. That's not what grade is about, and what it is about they know you aren't part of. The uniforms we have now are designed expressly for that purpose. The extent to whcih they let us tighten up to more professional looking versions is the same extent to which we deserve it by meeting those standards & to teh extent their people are educated as to who you are.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. They are going to tell you what uniform to wear, you'll show up, they'll show you where to sit & what to do & which NCO is supervising your work. No one cares about anything else.

If the AF asks us to use this FO system or wear some more distinctive uniform combination or whatever, then fine, but I think you'll find that they're generally going to be in favor of you wearing AF-style uniforms w/ your officer grade insignia, or they want you in civies w/ a specially colored ID to distinguish you from civil service employees.

[MississippiFlyboy]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

[lordmonar]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

[DNall]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

Amen!

I've been saluted a lot by military personnel that know exactly what it is to & know very well they don't have to salute you. Had an AF Capt (and CAP Capt) this wknd in AF uniform saluting CAP Majs & LtCols, and he knew very well he didn't have to. I said sir to him in passing cause he outranks me in the real world, but no one reads anything extra into that even w/o knowing the background of the people involved.

Don't judge a salute or use of the word "sir" in conversatin or in passing as acceptance of subordination to orders & authority. VERY VERY different things. It's part of a military custom that's sometimes extended by mistake or on purpose as a sign of respect. Don't misinterpret it as more than it is.

[SAR-EMT1]

No one in the AF thinks you have authority over them. Gary slides & blue tapes make certain of that.

If that were true then we would never be saluted in uniform which happens all the time.  You assume way more recognition (as compared to to reality) by the rank and file of the USAF of what CAP is all about.

There is a big difference than saluting a possible officer and obey their commands.

If I am walking down the road...and see a strange uniform (say a member of the RAF) and it looks sort of officerish...I'm going to whip out a salute and say good morning sir!  He he steps into my office and starts giving me orders....well....that's a completely different thing.

Amen!

I've been saluted a lot by military personnel that know exactly what it is to & know very well they don't have to salute you. Had an AF Capt (and CAP Capt) this wknd in AF uniform saluting CAP Majs & LtCols, and he knew very well he didn't have to. I said sir to him in passing cause he outranks me in the real world, but no one reads anything extra into that even w/o knowing the background of the people involved.

Don't judge a salute or use of the word "sir" in conversatin or in passing as acceptance of subordination to orders & authority. VERY VERY different things. It's part of a military custom that's sometimes extended by mistake or on purpose as a sign of respect. Don't misinterpret it as more than it is.

AMEN

[SAR-EMT1]

Back to the subject at hand...
When the CGAux augments they remove the shoulderboards and pin on a device that identifies them as Auxies. 

My question is: If we were to also use a distinct insignia as CAP types what do you propose such a device would look like?

[RiverAux]

As I pointed out in the first post, none of our uniforms are set up to easy switches like that, except for the blues and equivalents.  I'm sure somebody could design something appropriate though.  The CAP seal or the insignia we're putting on the airplanes for example. 

[DNall]

Again, screw the CGAux, they are not an example for us to follow. Things that work in the CG don't work for us & things that work for CAP/AF cannot work for CG. The reasons they do what they do are not applicable to CAP, both in general & specific to this issue. When you look at CGAux for ideas, you can only look at the very top surface layer, then you have to design your own program underneath with your own specifically tailored details shaped to the AF relationship. What the do has nothing to do with CAP!!!

CAP doesn
t need to change anything about our uniforms to execute this program. We have much more distinctive uniforms than others.

[SAR-EMT1]

All right Dnall, Ill accept that.  I am in agreement that the CG Aux is not the
end-all-be-all as an example. My only concern is to protect us from the inevitable few who will do their utmost to milk the program, the uniform, and the fact that they are on base for all its worth and then some.

As for any device to distinguish us: I think it would only be needed on the Blues... the tapes on the BDUs and Corporates stand out enough on their own I would think.

[DNall]

I think gray slides & nameplates are extremely distinctive. The only uniform I think you'd need to look at is the green flight suit, and you see them not just letting but asking for Kach & his guys to wear it on that duty. I think the sewn on white (gold) on blue grade would be plenty strong to make that one distinguishable.

[DrJbdm]

Speaking of people trying to be more distinctive in uniforms, I saw a CAP Officer wearing the flight cap with the cap pushed down on his head almost as far as it would go. When I tried to gently correct him on how it should be worn he told me he wears it this way in order to be more distinctive from the AF. I thought that was the worse excuse I have heard for wearing a uniform wrong. it made him look sloppy and made it look like he could care less how a military uniform should be worn. (he was wearing a green flight suit)

  I think CAP needs to have an on going class on uniform wear. it's obvious that unit CCs are not correcting the problems. I think CAP needs to heavily address this issue.

[RiverAux]

Again, screw the CGAux, they are not an example for us to follow. Things that work in the CG don't work for us & things that work for CAP/AF cannot work for CG.

But since things actually AREN'T working for CAP, at least as far as augmentation and closeness to parent service, we need to strongly consider following their example. 

Rank insignia could very well be an issue that could be a roadblock in this process.  I know you want to drastically improve CAP members so that everyone will believe we deserve the rank, but we're certainly not in that place right now and probably won't be for a while even if you got all your druthers. 

Just as an FYI, according to a recent wing newsletter from a SWR Wing, a CAP officer got in a major incident regarding base entry and tried throwing their "weight" around to the enlisted guards.  This wasn't directly related to augmentation, but that sort of attitude,which sometimes goes with CAP rank, can cause problems.  I see removing the rank as one way to emphasize our role and to ensure that sort of thing doesn't happen.  The other issue, as mentioned before, really centers around the fact that outside of a few professionals, most CAP members won't be augmenting in positions appropriate to their CAP rank.  The sort of dissonance set up by that wouldn't be good for anybody. 

[DrJbdm]

No, rank isn't an issue. We're the ones making it an issue. Honestly, removing rank wouldn't move us any closer to augmentation with the AF, changing our image would and that starts with increasing our standards. And while yes, the vast majority of us on here believe we need to radically up the standards for being a CAP Officer you are right we are not there yet nor have we even started the process. And as for that CAP Officer who had that incident at the base...well, he should be 2Bed immediately and the details made public to our members to serve as a warning of what will happen if you screw up. Every organization will have it's problems, it all in how you deal with the problems. CAP should have better education/training for it's members and better enforcement of the regulations.

[brasda91]

Beyond insulting them with bad appearance, behavior, or standards, I promise you the AF doesn't give one flip about our uniforms in any context; and, no airman on the planet thinks you're a real officer.

That's not true.  Back several years ago, the AF sent out "Tiger Teams" to various units across the the Nation, to see exactly how the uniforms were being worn.  There had been problems with the way CAP members were wearing the uniform.  It was so bad, the AF was on the verge of canning CAP.

As far as an airman not mistaking you for an officer; have you not ever been on an AF base in blues, and have an airman salute you?  I have and it's because the blues are so close in style and appearance of active duty blues.  I return the salute and carry on, with a smile on my face  .

There is nothing wrong with our uniforms, just the way they are displayed, when worn by members who do not meet the weight and grooming standards.  It is a disgrace when I see an overweight member wearing bdu's 2 sizes too small.  If the AF had a problem with our uniforms being too much like them, they would not approve them.

[DNall]

The AF has never been close to canning CAP over uniforms, but yes they've always been unhappy with the way in which we wear them, that has nothing to do with use of grade insignia on them, they have no problem with that.

I'd mention again as well that a salute in haste as you pass someone is not the same as them actually taking an order from you as legal before they verify your authority to give it. I think more often than getting saluted you'll find people that don't know what you are moving out of the way to avoid the issue. That or maybe CAP members just smell bad. 

No, rank isn't an issue. We're the ones making it an issue. Honestly, removing rank wouldn't move us any closer to augmentation with the AF, changing our image would and that starts with increasing our standards. And while yes, the vast majority of us on here believe we need to radically up the standards for being a CAP Officer you are right we are not there yet nor have we even started the process. And as for that CAP Officer who had that incident at the base...well, he should be 2Bed immediately and the details made public to our members to serve as a warning of what will happen if you screw up. Every organization will have it's problems, it all in how you deal with the problems. CAP should have better education/training for it's members and better enforcement of the regulations.

That's right on.

Far as problem members acting outside their authority. They should be charged with a crime as appropriate, that's happened a few times. That doesn't have anything to do with augmentation, it can happen anyway as things are now, which is where those examples come from. Augmenting on bases & such would not increase the frequency. Fact is the people in the augmentation program get hand picked after an interview process to make sure they (not just their skills) are right for the job. They can be thrown out at any time at the discression of the AF, the unit involved, or the CAP program coordinators. They have a lot of incentive not to screw up. Furthermore, they would be on contracts that require a numebr of service hours based on the training investment made in them, and that contract would contain conditions to hold them accountable for their behavior & performance. I don't see an issue here at all.

[RiverAux]

If the AF had a problem with our uniforms being too much like them, they would not approve them.

Well, they've approved them on the assumption, which is true for the vast majority of CAP members, that CAP people aren't mingling with AF types on bases very often and certainly not working with them side-by-side.  If CAP augmentation became the norm their expectations might change.  

That change might not be negative either.... perhaps having CAP members work more directly with the AF might lead to some positive changes in uniforms that might bring us closer to the AF.  

[brasda91]

The AF has never been close to canning CAP over uniforms, but yes they've always been unhappy with the way in which we wear them

Yes, that is it.  It was several years ago (possibly before your time) and they were looking at taking away our AF style uniforms.

[DNall]

The only time they've actually looked at taking away our AF-style uniforms is when they looked to cut the cadet program & ship us off to DOT w/ as equiv to CG. That had to do with bigger issues than how people wear thier uniforms.

What people do in uniform & the qualifty of wear are issues that many times embarass AF & for which our members aren't held accountable. However, that is a secondary factor even among the things that trouble the relationship, all of which are for now outweighed by positives. There's a lot we can do to improve that relationship significantly, and most of it is much more meaningful than uniforms, but if you need to tell your people something so they wear the stuff right then go for it.

Once again, the AF will determine what roles they are willing to take augmentees in, & every other factor of the program including uniforms to be worn in particular roles. That's nothing we need to concern ourselves with, certainly not when there are serious factors of the program that still need to be figured out & someone still has to write the proposal.

[jayleswo]

Seemed appropriate to revive this thread. NHQ and USAF announced a new augmentation program yesterday along with a new uniform!

http://www.cap.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3891&year=2008&month=1

[SAR-EMT1]

After having read the news release I dont understand exactly what it is we
( CAP ) will be doing on base.

[Mustang]

Well....if the USAF was going to accept that we are in fact an true auxillary and they were not just giving us lip service about our rank and uniforms.  Any CAP uniform USAF or Corporate should be acceptable and we should wear our rank.

If they cannot accept that...then we should seriously look at our relationship with the USAF.

See, I got accused of having a bruised ego for saying essentially the same thing over on The 'Stuff.

[JayT]

Well....if the USAF was going to accept that we are in fact an true auxillary and they were not just giving us lip service about our rank and uniforms.  Any CAP uniform USAF or Corporate should be acceptable and we should wear our rank.

If they cannot accept that...then we should seriously look at our relationship with the USAF.

See, I got accused of having a bruised ego for saying essentially the same thing over on The 'Stuff.

By federal law, we're not really a 'true AF auxiliary' anymore. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Are we just giving lip servive to wanting to help the Air Force? Or do we just want to play Air Force with uniforms and stuff?

[ddelaney103]

Well....if the USAF was going to accept that we are in fact an true auxillary and they were not just giving us lip service about our rank and uniforms.  Any CAP uniform USAF or Corporate should be acceptable and we should wear our rank.

If they cannot accept that...then we should seriously look at our relationship with the USAF.

See, I got accused of having a bruised ego for saying essentially the same thing over on The 'Stuff.

Wow, talk about postings back from the dead.

I think the AF doesn't care about our uniforms/grade as long as we're playing in our own sandbox.  The problem is when we take CAP officers and try to work them into the AF.

We're not "real" officers, yet we pretend to be all the time.  Personally, I think all AUX officers should salute any RM officer, regardless of grade and that we should have grade that doesn't look like RM grade.  Until then, we're on the border of "Slolenvalorland."