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CAP Talk  |  Recent Posts
CAP Talk  |  Recent Posts
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 1 
 on: Today at 06:49:28 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Ned
True, there's nothing to back it up, because for some reason CAP has equated a set of pushups to a physical assault. 

Let me see if I can help here.  While we continue the discussion of when raised voices may be appropriate at encampment, I need to respond to this to avoid any confusion.

For several years, our Cadet Protection Doctrine stated that physical exercise as punishment ("Drop and Give Me 20") was a form of hazing.  That was unnecessarily confusing and has been corrected in the current version of both the 60-1, and the encampment guidance.  I can certainly see how, in the past, it might have been equated as an equivalent to a physical assault in some circumstances.  But that is no longer the case.

Physical exercise as punishment is nonetheless strictly prohibited at any and all cadet activities, including encampment.  It is not hazing, per se, but is a violation of a best practice, and is almost always treated as a boundary concern rather than hazing.  There are countless tools good leaders have to create group discipline, cohesion, and esprit de corps, but pushups are not one of them in CAP.  We simply removed that particular tool from the tool box.

Think of it this way:  CAP absolutely forbids hazing.  Plus we have another rule that prohibits using physical exercise as punishment.  They are different concepts.

Ned Lee
National CP Manager

 2 
 on: Today at 06:23:46 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by abdsp51
Man, you really need to come out of the stone age and adapt.  In my 20 year career i never did push ups as an form of punishment.  Wait that's because in my career it's not allowed and punishment is adminestered by certain folks.

And you can thank society for the way things are.  Do I think kids these days need to be a little more tougher sure unfortunately yelling at them isn't going to toughen anyone up.

I think your heart may be in the right place, your methods are dated.

 3 
 on: Today at 05:19:24 PM 
Started by huey - Last post by Laplace
My understanding from my recent SUI is that AoCís are no longer a thing. It also does not appear in the ratings definition section of the SUI template. It might still be somewhere else, I didnít look that hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Huh. Yeah they did take AoCs out, I just looked through the SUI Report template.

SUI Inspectors are still encouraged to detail and list AoCs under the Identified Weakness section, and they will remain in the final version of the SUI Report.  They are not counted in the area that details the Mission Grades and number of Discrepancies or Commendables.

AoCs are in the draft version of the Wing CI Report, but removed in the final version.

 4 
 on: Today at 04:56:46 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Jester
This is the breeding of weakness.  It's making cadets who think it's supposed to be all fun, all the time.

Isn't it?

Quote from: CAPR 60-1

1.6.5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of cadet life.
The cadets who work hard in CAP reap the most benefits, but the program should not be another form of
school Ė it needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting. Proper adult supervision, an emphasis on
risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every
activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

It is literally impossible to make CAP all fun, all the time for everybody.  Good grief.  "I don't like to run, it's not fun for me."  OK, you still have to participate in order to be in the program.  Without a willingness to suffer hardship and discomfort, nobody would get anywhere.  Might as well introduce that in controlled doses early in the cadet experience.

Yes, most of the program should be fun, but we shouldn't encourage the ability to shy away from the necessary parts that enable us to earn the fun parts.  Doing so is only going to lead to, wait for it... weakness.

And in the process of, and as a result of, completing something challenging and difficult, the cadet may even find that they enjoyed it. 

 

 5 
 on: Today at 04:51:57 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Jester
True, there's nothing to back it up, because for some reason CAP has equated a set of pushups to a physical assault.  In my view, PT as punishment isn't a big deal when done correctly (and using common-sense guidelines coupled with the training/supervision that apparently isn't happening if you think they can't be taught to use a raised voice correctly).  However, I don't see that changing as CAP policy any time soon, and probably never.  Congratulations, you slipped the standard too far down and now you've cut the legs out from under cadet staff members who have a week or less to establish control and move a group of people through a challenging curriculum (or what should be a challenging curriculum). 

Glad nobody gets the sadsies when their muscles are made to burn for making a dumb choice.   There's no consequences, only happy times no matter what you do (until they push the limit too far and get sent home early.  Sure would be good if you had a plethora of progressive tools available to correct behavior before you got to the nuclear option, but lay in the bed you demanded be made).

And all the hypothetical situations you've outlined have really just proved that some situations aren't appropriate for yelling, not that yelling is never appropriate.  And so they got yelled at for something that wasn't in their span of control?  So what?  They could just suck it up and perform, instead of going "BUT SIRRRRR, MY SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS AND A HOST OF OTHER FACTORS MEANS I NEED A PAAAAASSSSS".  Stop giving them excuses to use, they need to learn how to shrug it off and keep moving forward. 

 6 
 on: Today at 04:33:02 PM 
Started by Peculate - Last post by Eclipse
You can go to as many as you can get to / are accepted to.  It's not unusual for some cadets to be gone all summer
and go from one activity to the next.

As an example, you could easily hit Johnson Flight Academy, HMRS, and then still make Blue Beret or NESA, with more then a month left of the summer after,
and those are just examples of the flashier ones.  There's plenty of others that don't overlap.

 7 
 on: Today at 04:18:55 PM 
Started by Peculate - Last post by Peculate
Is there a limit on how many NCSA's a person could do per summer? Say Event 1 happened one month, while Event 2 happened the other month. Could a cadet do both?

 8 
 on: Today at 01:20:52 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Eclipse
"Yelling", per se, literally holds zero weight when the person on the receiving end knows full well that there is
no corporal or further punishment or ramifications beyond the yelling.  Yelling in CAP is the equivalent of
a military-themed amusement park - it's all fun an games to "play Army", but there's no real risk and
everyone knows they can just head for the exit if things get too "real".

Those of us of a certain age with strict parents grew up in a world where corporal punishment was not only common, it was expected, and could be
metered out by not just parents, but others in "loco parentis", so the yelling had an apocalyptic period at the end of the sentence
if you didn't knock it off, and there was no "wait until my lawyer hears of this!" from a 12 year old, as is the case today.

If Sister smacked you with a ruler, or the shop teacher offered you "3 hits or 3 hours" (detention), you took it (probably with the
grounded knowledge that you messed up), and hoped to your deity that "Dad didn't find out", because if he did, it wasn't going to be
"I will give that nun a good talking to..." it was going to probably be a couple more of the same.

Kids today know that there is nothing at the end of the yelling, except, perhaps, a myocardial infarction, and most will just stand there
and wait you out, until you realize you look like an idiot and move on to some other means of persuading the desired behavior.
This is something that is ingrained in them from pre-school, and CAP is not going to change that.

A child persuaded to a behavior via no other means then the threat of corporal punishment, is essentially
a prisoner in that situation.

Couple that with the generalized anxiety disorders and worse that kids are saddle with today.  It is literally impossible to
snap a kid with an anxiety disorder "out of it" by yelling at him in a punitive way, it just makes it worse, on an escalating scale.

This is the world CAP exists in today, accept it or not, this is not a fact you can dispute, and again, I'll be happy to debate
the hows and whys over coffee, but CAP isn't going to be a factor in changing it, and it can't influence or help anyone who
quits before they have a chance to even hear the lessons.

So, with the above said...

For those espousing the "yelling at", it might be interesting to know what, exactly, you think you're supposed to be yelling "about"?

 - Improper uniform wear?

This cadet has been in CAP 3 weeks and received his uniform yesterday. Mom put the nametape on the wrong side as she
sewed it in the car on the way to encampment.


 - Inability to march / drill properly?

His unit staff is made up of 3 moms with no military experience who are barely keeping the doors open as-is,
and didn't understand the directions. The oldest cadet in the unit is a C/SrA.


 - He's late getting up the first morning, and slow to get his hygiene done.

This cadet couldn't get off school and lives 10 hours away, he was up for 17 hours the day before and hasn't
had his medication yet this morning.  BTW, this cadet, like many these days, is up every day at 0600 or earlier and
routinely turns his nightlight off at midnight because of homework he can't start until 10pm, after sports and band, and yes
CAP meetings.


- Cadet isn't running fast enough?  Can't do enough pushups (define "enough")?

- Cadet doesn't dress for the pool because he can't swim.

- Cadet's parents didn't tell him his boss for his summer job called and he has to leave encampment early.

- Cadet arrives 2+ hours late for encampment because his parent, unit CC, etc., had to work, or simply wasn't in a hurry.

- Cadet brings, or doesn't bring, something he should or shouldn't have, because his Unit CC "knows better" and advised him improperly?

- Cadet couldn't afford new boots and the ones he was able to borrow are too small and tore up his feet.

These are not adults, being consistently trained, and who are responsible for their own lives, these are 12-year olds
who in many cases have never spent a night away from home, and whose parent' only have 1/2-an idea what CAP even is.

So...what's all the shouting for?

 9 
 on: Today at 12:31:26 PM 
Started by huey - Last post by Brad
My understanding from my recent SUI is that AoCís are no longer a thing. It also does not appear in the ratings definition section of the SUI template. It might still be somewhere else, I didnít look that hard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Huh. Yeah they did take AoCs out, I just looked through the SUI Report template.

 10 
 on: Today at 12:30:03 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Trenzalorian
This is the breeding of weakness.  It's making cadets who think it's supposed to be all fun, all the time.

Isn't it?

Quote from: CAPR 60-1

1.6.5. Fun. CAP should be fun. New friends and great opportunities are the hallmarks of cadet life.
The cadets who work hard in CAP reap the most benefits, but the program should not be another form of
school Ė it needs to be fun, hands-on, rewarding, and exciting. Proper adult supervision, an emphasis on
risk management, and teamwork built upon mutual respect create a safe and fun environment. Every
activity should be fun, for cadets and their adult leaders alike.

+1.

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