Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[MSG Mac]

The reason they didn't receive the NDSM or a DD-214 is that if you were fraudulently enlisted, you were never in the service to begin with

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The reason they didn't receive the NDSM or a DD-214 is that if you were fraudulently enlisted, you were never in the service to begin with

Isn't that more on the order of an ELS (uncharacterised)?  FE is bad news, while ELS is neutral news.

[XxJake114xX]

Reacher, when is this cadet due to discussion about his actions? If that is already happened, what were his consequences? If I may ask.

[MSG Mac]

The reason they didn't receive the NDSM or a DD-214 is that if you were fraudulently enlisted, you were never in the service to begin with

Isn't that more on the order of an ELS (uncharacterised)?  FE is bad news, while ELS is neutral news.

No, Uncharacterized means they are discharged. FE were never legally in the service, because of age, physical, legal, etc reasons. If you weren't in you are not eligible for benefits which can last for 100 years or more for yourself, spouses, and children.

[Johnny Yuma]

You guys can go on arguing hither and yon about the .mil and terminating the cadet, lemme tell you how this would go in real life.

Unit CC hears a rumor about Cadet Snuffy supposedly getting in trouble for drinking at a party. When confronted, cadet Snuffy respectfully tells the commander its none of his business. Unit commander calls the kid's parents, who politely thank him for his concern, but this is a family matter that they are handling and is none of his business. Unit commander then goes to the courthouse, whom the clerk tells him it's a juvenile matter, who the heck are you? After which he'll be told those records are sealed and it's none of his business.

So all the unit commander has is an allegation based on cadet hearsay. He knows something happened, but it didn't happen on CAP time and those involved believe that he has declined to discuss the matter any further.

If YOU were the commander, would you pursue sanction any further? You have nothing but rumor, the parents don't want your involvement and there's no public record of anything. It'll never get past the MARB and you'll likely end up with several long conversations with the Wing IG after the parents make the complaint against you.

Membership action in this case isn't worth the trouble and let's face it, if the law and the parents are bringing the kid to heel then CAP really needs to stay out of it. At best a word to the Chaplain to keep an eye on him and maybe a few weeks "volunteering" to help the DDR officer might be better efforts of one's time.

[Eclipse]

You can make up any scenario you like to support you opinion, however it does not relate to the OP, which
perhaps you didn't even read.

The OP indicated that the cadet was caught at a school function, and convicted of a misdemeanor.  How he came about that information
was not divulged, but both are relevent to a cadets membership, and, at least as characterized, go well beyond "a rumor".  It is possible,
and even likely the cadet divulged the information himself.

Whether membership action is "worth the trouble" depends on a number of factors not introduced in this discussion, and would be
primarily focused on whether the integrity and good order of the unit are negatively influenced.

Whether the cadet's parents feel they have "handled it" is a tangential concern at best.  A commander has no business doing an "investigation", either.
If he doesn't have actionable, supportable information, then he can consult the Wing Legal Officer (>NOT< the IG) and if the JA wants to pursue it he
can, if not, it's been noted for the record.  If the cadet is asked direct questions, and it comes out later he lied, he can be terminated on those grounds.

...you'll likely end up with several long conversations with the Wing IG after the parents make the complaint against you.

Why would there be any conversation?  The Wing CC would have already been involved - no one with sense would terminate a cadet in a circumstance like this
without involving the Wing CC.

At best a word to the Chaplain to keep an eye on him and maybe a few weeks "volunteering" to help the DDR officer might be better efforts of one's time.

A "word to the Chaplain?" Becaauusse?  In your world you have a non-actionable rumor about a cadet which is confidential enough to involve
sealed records, but you're fine divulging the situation to the Chaplain who is otherwise not involved?

And what grounds would you have to "voluntell" a cadet to work with DDR?

You're going to wind up in a lot more trouble making up your own rules and divulging confidential information to non-involved parties
then simply taking the appropriate disciplinary action.

[Johnny Yuma]

You can make up any scenario you like to support you opinion, however it does not relate to the OP, which
perhaps you didn't even read.

The OP indicated that the cadet was caught at a school function, and convicted of a misdemeanor.  How he came about that information
was not divulged, but both are relevent to a cadets membership, and, at least as characterized, go well beyond "a rumor".  It is possible,
and even likely the cadet divulged the information himself.

Whether membership action is "worth the trouble" depends on a number of factors not introduced in this discussion, and would be
primarily focused on whether the integrity and good order of the unit are negatively influenced.

Whether the cadet's parents feel they have "handled it" is a tangential concern at best.  A commander has no business doing an "investigation", either.
If he doesn't have actionable, supportable information, then he can consult the Wing Legal Officer (>NOT< the IG) and if the JA wants to pursue it he
can, if not, it's been noted for the record.  If the cadet is asked direct questions, and it comes out later he lied, he can be terminated on those grounds.

...you'll likely end up with several long conversations with the Wing IG after the parents make the complaint against you.

Why would there be any conversation?  The Wing CC would have already been involved - no one with sense would terminate a cadet in a circumstance like this
without involving the Wing CC.

At best a word to the Chaplain to keep an eye on him and maybe a few weeks "volunteering" to help the DDR officer might be better efforts of one's time.

A "word to the Chaplain?" Becaauusse?  In your world you have a non-actionable rumor about a cadet which is confidential enough to involve
sealed records, but you're fine divulging the situation to the Chaplain who is otherwise not involved?

And what grounds would you have to "voluntell" a cadet to work with DDR?

You're going to wind up in a lot more trouble making up your own rules and divulging confidential information to non-involved parties
then simply taking the appropriate disciplinary action.

The bottom line is that the matter is being handled by forces in better control of the situation than CAP or the unit commander. It's far better for the unit, the commander and CAP in general to let those actually involved in this deal with it and for CAP to keep its nose out.

I really don't understand why staying the hell out of CAP member's lives while they're away from CAP is such a foreign concept for so many of you.

BTW -  A commander can ask the Chaplain to keep an eye on anyone he wants to, no one said he has to tell him why, or even have a reason to.

DDR officers often need help and no better help than cadets dedicated to the program of staying drug and alcohol free! Rumor? What rumor? Oh that rumor. Don't know anything about it and none of my business. Now here's some Red Ribbons, go take them over to the DDR officer and make yourself useful...

[Eclipse]

I really don't understand why staying the hell out of CAP member's lives while they're away from CAP is such a foreign concept for so many of you.

Clearly.

[lordmonar]

You guys can go on arguing hither and yon about the .mil and terminating the cadet, lemme tell you how this would go in real life.

Unit CC hears a rumor about Cadet Snuffy supposedly getting in trouble for drinking at a party. When confronted, cadet Snuffy respectfully tells the commander its none of his business. Unit commander calls the kid's parents, who politely thank him for his concern, but this is a family matter that they are handling and is none of his business. Unit commander then goes to the courthouse, whom the clerk tells him it's a juvenile matter, who the heck are you? After which he'll be told those records are sealed and it's none of his business.

So all the unit commander has is an allegation based on cadet hearsay. He knows something happened, but it didn't happen on CAP time and those involved believe that he has declined to discuss the matter any further.

If YOU were the commander, would you pursue sanction any further? You have nothing but rumor, the parents don't want your involvement and there's no public record of anything. It'll never get past the MARB and you'll likely end up with several long conversations with the Wing IG after the parents make the complaint against you.

Membership action in this case isn't worth the trouble and let's face it, if the law and the parents are bringing the kid to heel then CAP really needs to stay out of it. At best a word to the Chaplain to keep an eye on him and maybe a few weeks "volunteering" to help the DDR officer might be better efforts of one's time.

Or more likely....the commander is so busy doing his job (and his real life) he ignores it at "handled" by competent authority.

As a former commander......I have had to deal with cadets who got in trouble in "real life".   I have had to deal with IG complaints against me on how I treat cadets.   Not worth the trouble going out of my way to "deal" with a "problem" that has no impact on my operations.

If it does have an impact....I will deal with it.

[LSThiker]

At best a word to the Chaplain to keep an eye on him and maybe a few weeks "volunteering" to help the DDR officer might be better efforts of one's time.

Rumor? What rumor? Oh that rumor. Don't know anything about it and none of my business. Now here's some Red Ribbons, go take them over to the DDR officer and make yourself useful...

Integrity issue for the commander

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I really don't understand why staying the hell out of CAP member's lives while they're away from CAP is such a foreign concept for so many of you.

Clearly.

Some CAP units/commanders are infused with a mindset like CAP is active-duty, or at least like the Reserve components, meaning: "all CAP, all the time."

[Eclipse]

CAP cadets are afforded opportunities which reach well into "real life". The entry fee for those opportunities is
an adherence to a number of rules and prohibitions which also reach beyond weekly meetings.  It is a higher standard
then their non-member peers, by design.

None are onerous, they benefit everyone involved as well as the community in general, and all are voluntary.

You cannot separate one from the other and still maintain the organizational integrity which attracted
the person in the first place.

[Johnny Yuma]

I really don't understand why staying the hell out of CAP member's lives while they're away from CAP is such a foreign concept for so many of you.

Clearly.

Some CAP units/commanders are infused with a mindset like CAP is active-duty, or at least like the Reserve components, meaning: "all CAP, all the time."

Therein lies a massive problem.

[Reacher]

I apologize for resurrecting a dead thread, but I wanted to give closure to the discussion and make known the results.

1. Cadet in question was essentially told to "Go and sin no more". A serious talk with the Squadron CC and an SM who is a Police Officer was also had, including consequences for further violations. General idea was that he had paid enough already, and termination was not warranted yet.

2. The Cadet's family passively supports underage drinking, etc. My perspective was that the father was more disappointed that the son was caught, than that he was drinking (JMHO, not entirely factual).

Thank you for your meaningful dialogue and discussion. It was very insightful, and useful.

Reacher signing off

[Eclipse]

2. The Cadet's family passively supports underage drinking, etc.

Gee-Zus...

[LSThiker]

2. The Cadet's family passively supports underage drinking, etc.

Gee-Zus...

I would not jump straight to a conclusion.  Could be a cultural difference as there are plenty of countries around the world that have drinking ages less than 21 and even with less than 18 years of age. 

Of course that does not make it legally correct, but to some people it is culturally correct. 

http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol/legaldrinkingage.html#.VMKNFWN0y70

[jeders]

2. The Cadet's family passively supports underage drinking, etc.

Gee-Zus...

Eh. Some areas of this country that's a crime; other areas, it's not only tradition, it's legal.

[Eclipse]

Eh. Some areas of this country that's a crime; other areas, it's not only tradition, it's legal.

The following map shows the exceptions to the minimum age of 21 for the consumption of alcohol as of January 1, 2011

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm not sure I understand Eclipse's map.

Do the green states mean that one does not have to be 21 to drink?

It is much different in other countries.  My aunt lived in Alsace-Lorraine back in the '60s with some of our extended family and they always had wine at meals.

My dad told me when he was stationed in (West) Germany that kids took beer to school in their lunchboxes, and when he did FTX with the West German Army they had it in their canteens.

I remember going to Canada before I turned 21 and could drink there (the highest age anywhere in that country is 19, and it's 18 in Alberta, Manitoba, and Quebec) - but it was HIGHLY recommended you crash at a friend's/family's place or rent a motel room, because the instant you came back through US Customs you were in violation of the law in whatever state you were crossing into (i.e.; crossing from British Columbia into Washington State) and subject to arrest.

All states in Australia are 18...and they can pound the stuff away like no-one I've ever seen.

Friends in the UK have told me that it's 18 there but very lightly enforced.

A friend of mine from Italy who opened a (superb!) Italian restaurant here said he just could not figure out U.S. liquor laws.  He said, "in Italy nobody cares if a younger person has a drink with a meal."

So, I wonder, what our hangup is.  I don't have a dog in the fight as I'm LONG past 21 and quit drinking many years ago...I just don't understand the reasoning.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure I understand Eclipse's map.

Do the green states mean that one does not have to be 21 to drink?

See above edit

Also this is the page it comes from:  http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol/LegalDrinkingAge.html#.VMKzSNLF9X8[/quote]