Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[XxJake114xX]

Would this be grounds for dismissal?

Reacher your question raises MY question, what are we going to do about those senior members who smoke at meetings in uniform? Nicotine is an addictive thing, and has negative impacts on the body, and it is worse than drinking, so some extent.

I have been to/seen squadrons, where the Senior members are in a group, IN UNIFORM, smoking together right by the cadets (outside, of course).

These senior members have obviously been checked through Civil Air Patrol and are qualified to be senior members in the program, but they smoke! Are we going to dismiss all those senior members?

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Like so many postings here this one seems to have entered the realm of the infinite loop.   Best explained as:

nfinite loop is a computer programming concept, describing a situation of cause and effect that continues forever, one action causing another action that causes the first action etc.

These loops never happen in real life, unless...

A company CEO tells his secretary:
"Next week we're going to a convention abroad and spend some quality time together, please make all the required arrangements."

The secretary calls her husband:
"Next week the boss is taking me abroad for a week on business, please take care of yourself during this time."

The husband calls his lover:
"My wife is going abroad for a week, lets spend it together..."

The lover, a private school teacher, tells the children:
"Because of a personal problem, I will not be at school next week, so you'll be studying at home."

One of the kids went to his grandfather and said:
"Grandpa, next week I don't have school, you promised me that if I had time off we'd go to the mountains together."

The grandfather, who was also the CEO, calls his secretary and tells her:
"My grandson asked me to spend the week with him, so we're not going abroad."

The secretary calls her husband:
"The boss cancelled, we'll be together, my love."

The husband calls his lover:
"We can't spend the week together, my wife is staying."

The lover tells the kids:
"My problem was solved, school is back on."

The kid goes to the grandfather:
"Sorry grandpa, school is back on, I won't be able to go."

The CEO calls his secretary:
"My grandson won't be able to spend next week with me, rebook the flight abroad"

The secretary calls her husband....

[LSThiker]

Reacher your question raises MY question, what are we going to do about those senior members who smoke at meetings in uniform? Nicotine is an addictive thing, and has negative impacts on the body, and it is worse than drinking, so some extent.

I have been to/seen squadrons, where the Senior members are in a group, IN UNIFORM, smoking together right by the cadets (outside, of course).

These senior members have obviously been checked through Civil Air Patrol and are qualified to be senior members in the program, but they smoke! Are we going to dismiss all those senior members?

This phrase was in the 2012 CAPR 52-16, but has been removed from the 2014:

Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid  excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter. Commanders may establish designated smoking and non-smoking areas and designate areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

Basically, if there is a problem with a senior member smoking around cadets, the answer is to talk with your Deputy Commander for Cadets to address the issue with either the individual or the squadron commander.

There is no prohibition for seniors regarding tobacco products at CAP, therefore, no dismal is required. 

[blackrain]

Like so many postings here this one seems to have entered the realm of the infinite loop.   Best explained as:

nfinite loop is a computer programming concept, describing a situation of cause and effect that continues forever, one action causing another action that causes the first action etc.

These loops never happen in real life, unless...

A company CEO tells his secretary:
"Next week we're going to a convention abroad and spend some quality time together, please make all the required arrangements."

The secretary calls her husband:
"Next week the boss is taking me abroad for a week on business, please take care of yourself during this time."

The husband calls his lover:
"My wife is going abroad for a week, lets spend it together..."

The lover, a private school teacher, tells the children:
"Because of a personal problem, I will not be at school next week, so you'll be studying at home."

One of the kids went to his grandfather and said:
"Grandpa, next week I don't have school, you promised me that if I had time off we'd go to the mountains together."

The grandfather, who was also the CEO, calls his secretary and tells her:
"My grandson asked me to spend the week with him, so we're not going abroad."

The secretary calls her husband:
"The boss cancelled, we'll be together, my love."

The husband calls his lover:
"We can't spend the week together, my wife is staying."

The lover tells the kids:
"My problem was solved, school is back on."

The kid goes to the grandfather:
"Sorry grandpa, school is back on, I won't be able to go."

The CEO calls his secretary:
"My grandson won't be able to spend next week with me, rebook the flight abroad"

The secretary calls her husband....

You must be Army....

"I don't Care Who You Are That's Funny"

[Private Investigator]

Would this be grounds for dismissal?

Reacher your question raises MY question, what are we going to do about those senior members who smoke at meetings in uniform? Nicotine is an addictive thing, and has negative impacts on the body, and it is worse than drinking, so some extent.

I have been to/seen squadrons, where the Senior members are in a group, IN UNIFORM, smoking together right by the cadets (outside, of course).

These senior members have obviously been checked through Civil Air Patrol and are qualified to be senior members in the program, but they smoke! Are we going to dismiss all those senior members?

Being sarcastic or are you a ハローキティ .. really you live in the USA, a free country and in a state, Florida, where people smoke. Move to Utah where nobody smokes if it is a problem to you 

[Private Investigator]

Like so many postings here this one seems to have entered the realm of the infinite loop.   Best explained as:

nfinite loop is a computer programming concept, describing a situation of cause and effect that continues forever, one action causing another action that causes the first action etc.

These loops never happen in real life, unless...

A company CEO tells his secretary:
"Next week we're going to a convention abroad and spend some quality time together, please make all the required arrangements."

The secretary calls her husband:
"Next week the boss is taking me abroad for a week on business, please take care of yourself during this time."

The husband calls his lover:
"My wife is going abroad for a week, lets spend it together..."

The lover, a private school teacher, tells the children:
"Because of a personal problem, I will not be at school next week, so you'll be studying at home."

One of the kids went to his grandfather and said:
"Grandpa, next week I don't have school, you promised me that if I had time off we'd go to the mountains together."

The grandfather, who was also the CEO, calls his secretary and tells her:
"My grandson asked me to spend the week with him, so we're not going abroad."

The secretary calls her husband:
"The boss cancelled, we'll be together, my love."

The husband calls his lover:
"We can't spend the week together, my wife is staying."

The lover tells the kids:
"My problem was solved, school is back on."

The kid goes to the grandfather:
"Sorry grandpa, school is back on, I won't be able to go."

The CEO calls his secretary:
"My grandson won't be able to spend next week with me, rebook the flight abroad"

The secretary calls her husband....

You must be Army....

"I don't Care Who You Are That's Funny"

+1 x 1M that is funny   :clap:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Reacher your question raises MY question, what are we going to do about those senior members who smoke at meetings in uniform? Nicotine is an addictive thing, and has negative impacts on the body, and it is worse than drinking, so some extent.

I have been to/seen squadrons, where the Senior members are in a group, IN UNIFORM, smoking together right by the cadets (outside, of course).

These senior members have obviously been checked through Civil Air Patrol and are qualified to be senior members in the program, but they smoke! Are we going to dismiss all those senior members?

This phrase was in the 2012 CAPR 52-16, but has been removed from the 2014:

Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter. Commanders may establish designated smoking and non-smoking areas and designate areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

Basically, if there is a problem with a senior member smoking around cadets, the answer is to talk with your Deputy Commander for Cadets to address the issue with either the individual or the squadron commander.

There is no prohibition for seniors regarding tobacco products at CAP, therefore, no dismal is required.

I think the phrase here is "should avoid."  If it meant "must not," I think it would say "must not."

If said member of CAP is of legal age in his/her State/Territory to buy/consume alcohol/tobacco products, and they are not based on a military installation where the installation commander says otherwise, there is no grounds for dismissal unless their behaviour becomes dangerous/disruptive.

However, as a lifelong nonsmoker and 15+ years sober former drinker, and former DDR, I would say that trying to do such things away from cadets would be best policy.

[XxJake114xX]

CAPP 151, Page 4, Section 7 ALCOHOL ABUSE

7. Alcohol Abuse. You have the responsibility to exercise good judgment in the use of alcohol. Your use of alcohol must not adversely affect your duty performance or your conduct on or off duty. Civil Air Patrol policy is to discourage alcohol abuse and alcoholism among its personnel and their dependents. Moderation should be encouraged for those persons choosing to drink and nondrinkers are not pressured or ostracized for choosing not to drink. Intoxication while engaged in a CAP activity will not be tolerated. No alcohol will be served or consumed at cadet activities.

CAPR 52-16, Page 7, 2-4 POLICY ON DRUGS AND SUPPLEMENTS

c. Alcohol & Recreational Drugs. Cadets will not possess alcohol nor use any drugs that are prohibited under federal law, even if local law permits their use. Further, tobacco products and e- cigarettes are prohibited for cadets at CAP activities.
Senior members will not consume alcohol at activities conducted primarily for cadets if they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets later that day.

These regulations talk about alcohol consumption and regulation of the amount, but nothing states the act of dismissing a cadet for drinking...
Also, with further reading in these regs, it mostly talks about senior members drinking, smoking, etc. And when it DOES bring up a cadet, I have yet to find a mention of kicking him out of the program.

[lordmonar]

Cadet Pearman.....the regs don't say "If he does XYZ then terminate".

The punishment is left up to the discretion of the commander.

Sometimes a stern talking to is all that is required.
Sometimes it may be a hold on promotion.
Sometimes it may be a demotion.
Sometimes it may be a suspension.

And sometimes it may be termination.

It all depends on the the situation.   Nothing is cut into stone.

[LSThiker]

These regulations talk about alcohol consumption and regulation of the amount, but nothing states the act of dismissing a cadet for drinking...
Also, with further reading in these regs, it mostly talks about senior members drinking, smoking, etc. And when it DOES bring up a cadet, I have yet to find a mention of kicking him out of the program.

There is not a regulation that states, "if cadet is consuming alcohol, then the commander must terminate his/her membership".  Punishment, for the most part, is up to the commander's discretion.  Therefore, a commander may terminate a cadet for drinking alcohol under CAPR 35-5, 3d or if the issue is severe enough that it would bar his/her application for senior member, then under CAPR 35-5, 3e.  However, it is not required and a commander may simply choose a counseling statement, demotion, or suspension.

[Storm Chaser]

CAPP 151, Page 4, Section 7 ALCOHOL ABUSE

7. Alcohol Abuse. You have the responsibility to exercise good judgment in the use of alcohol. Your use of alcohol must not adversely affect your duty performance or your conduct on or off duty. Civil Air Patrol policy is to discourage alcohol abuse and alcoholism among its personnel and their dependents. Moderation should be encouraged for those persons choosing to drink and nondrinkers are not pressured or ostracized for choosing not to drink. Intoxication while engaged in a CAP activity will not be tolerated. No alcohol will be served or consumed at cadet activities.

CAPR 52-16, Page 7, 2-4 POLICY ON DRUGS AND SUPPLEMENTS

c. Alcohol & Recreational Drugs. Cadets will not possess alcohol nor use any drugs that are prohibited under federal law, even if local law permits their use. Further, tobacco products and e- cigarettes are prohibited for cadets at CAP activities.
Senior members will not consume alcohol at activities conducted primarily for cadets if they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets later that day.

These regulations talk about alcohol consumption and regulation of the amount, but nothing states the act of dismissing a cadet for drinking...
Also, with further reading in these regs, it mostly talks about senior members drinking, smoking, etc. And when it DOES bring up a cadet, I have yet to find a mention of kicking him out of the program.

Cadet Pearman, while Lordmonar, LSThicker and others are correct about the commander's discretion in handling issues like this, may I remind you that drinking or possessing alcohol under age is not only against regulations, but it's against the law. If a cadet chooses to break the law, then the commander has every right to terminate his/her membership, among other possible disciplinary actions.

Would this be grounds for dismissal?

Reacher your question raises MY question, what are we going to do about those senior members who smoke at meetings in uniform? Nicotine is an addictive thing, and has negative impacts on the body, and it is worse than drinking, so some extent.

I have been to/seen squadrons, where the Senior members are in a group, IN UNIFORM, smoking together right by the cadets (outside, of course).

These senior members have obviously been checked through Civil Air Patrol and are qualified to be senior members in the program, but they smoke! Are we going to dismiss all those senior members?

While it may be inappropriate for senior members to smoke in front of cadets, it's not illegal. A cadet drinking or smoking underage is.

[CDT/SSgt Rivera]

I purposely created a throwaway for this question.

I have a cadet who was caught drinking at a school function. Not sure of all the details, but he was sentenced to community service, and received a misdemeanor. Would this be grounds for dismissal? Cadet in question is 17, plans to join the Marines, but has to wait until he is 18 because of this. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I can divulge a few more details if the need arises. Just trying to keep privacy in check.

I will tell ya though, I would hate to have termination from CAP written on my resume. But if you think it is needed, I would do it. I am not saying under-age drinking is good, but it would suck to have a mistake in high school follow you for the rest of your life.

[Storm Chaser]

I am not saying under-age drinking is good, but it would suck to have a mistake in high school follow you for the rest of your life.

Then it's better not to make the "mistake" in the first place.

In real life, some "mistakes" do follow you for the rest of your life. Having your CAP membership terminated is the least of your concerns if you get arrested for breaking the law or, worst, get hurt or hurt someone by doing something stupid.

[Eclipse]

I will tell ya though, I would hate to have termination from CAP written on my resume.

One might advise against including this when applying for jobs.

A good commander would never have reluctance to direct Senior members to smoke, if necessary, outside the
purview of cadets, the same goes for chewing, ecigs, etc.  (saw those things in casinos for the first time this
weekend.  I was like "what the heck?..oh, yeah...).

With that said, smoking, in and of itself, would in most cases not be grounds for termination.  The termination would
come after repeated insubordination in the act of continuing to smoke in the presence of cadets, since no adult
worth having in CAP is incapable of being discreet regarding these types of things.

It is remarkable what >adults< in the proper definition of the word, are capable of taking care of discreetly when necessary.

The same goes for drinking, legal or not, there are limits to what can be tolerated in uniform and/or on CAP
time.   A beer or two with friends, wine with dinner, or a toast to the Great Seal are different from binge drinking
shots after a conference from your flight cap.

[Alaric]

I purposely created a throwaway for this question.

I have a cadet who was caught drinking at a school function. Not sure of all the details, but he was sentenced to community service, and received a misdemeanor. Would this be grounds for dismissal? Cadet in question is 17, plans to join the Marines, but has to wait until he is 18 because of this. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I can divulge a few more details if the need arises. Just trying to keep privacy in check.

I will tell ya though, I would hate to have termination from CAP written on my resume. But if you think it is needed, I would do it. I am not saying under-age drinking is good, but it would suck to have a mistake in high school follow you for the rest of your life.

Why would anyone include it on their resume.  Unless you are applying for a job where your CAP experience is relevant, activities, hobbies, etc should not be listed

[CDT/SSgt Rivera]

That is what I meant.  If someone asked more about his career in CAP, he might also contact his commander then he would talk about his misuse of drugs. This cadet would be a goner. He wants to join the marines! He will be dropped like a hot potato if an unhonorable dismissal from CAP was mentioned.

[Eclipse]

That is what I meant.  If someone asked more about his career in CAP, he might also contact his commander then he would talk about his misuse of drugs. This cadet would be a goner. He wants to join the marines! He will be dropped like a hot potato if an unhonorable dismissal from CAP was mentioned.

The reality here is you simply do not mention your affiliation, any more then you would mention getting voted off
the condo association board, your local gardening club, or the PTA.

And no commander should be discussing a member, current or otherwise, to anyone outside the organization,
especially in regards to disciplinary actions.

With that said, in this highly connected world, it would not be out of the question for Google searches and background checks
to pop up related information, which an employer may feel it addressable.

For the record, termination from CAP, in and of itself, would not likely be a dis-qualifier for the Marines, or any other
military service, though if made aware of the fact, would be fair game during application interviews and the reasoning
behind the termination might be an issue.

If the military disqualified every kid who'd ever had a drink or tried something harder, they'd be in a world of hurt, but when
enlistment quotas are full, services are in draw-down, or you are trying for a highly competitive MOS, it's not going to do you any favors.

[Garibaldi]

In all fairness, unless the police were involved, the chances of the military giving a poop is very low. They do like it if you are honest and up front about stuff. If you do not tell them, and they find out, you're hosed.

[Private Investigator]

That is what I meant.  If someone asked more about his career in CAP, he might also contact his commander then he would talk about his misuse of drugs. This cadet would be a goner. He wants to join the Marines! He will be dropped like a hot potato if an unhonorable dismissal from CAP was mentioned.

Being a former Marine you know how many kids told me they wanted to join the Marines? In 2014 most kids are just talk. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't want to downplay the significance of dismissal from CAP (unless you're trying to join one of the Armed Forces), but it really does not have the life-altering significance of an OTH Discharge from the military.

Many moons ago, when I was at Lackland, I remember walking past a room full of trainees being sent home on Entry-Level Separations for various things.  There was a civilian addressing them and one sentence I remember is that all who were not being outprocessed for Fraudulent Enlistment would receive the NDSM.  I briefly thought "oh, man, sucks to be them if they're getting booted for FE," because that will be a thorn in their flesh.

In all fairness, unless the police were involved, the chances of the military giving a poop is very low. They do like it if you are honest and up front about stuff. If you do not tell them, and they find out, you're hosed.

Which is what I was told by my ANG recruiter when filling out my ancient DD398 (I still have it!) for my security clearance.  For that reason I even listed an infraction from years before for an expired registration - just in case.  It was never an issue, but if I hadn't listed it, and it would have somehow popped up (even in that pre-Information Age setting) I probably would, as Garibaldi said, "been hosed."

Being a former Marine you know how many kids told me they wanted to join the Marines? In 2014 most kids are just talk. 

Meaning on how once they find out how they're going to soil themselves one second after going through the gates of Parris Island/San Diego and standing on the Yellow Footprints they bug out?