Required Weigh-Ins

[shorning]

Everything I have said has been purely hypothetical and in no way constitutes me "corrupting my program".  Just because I may have an idea that I express in no way means that I am going to act upon nor am I in a position to act upon it if I want to.  I am speaking mere conjecture and find your comment completely unfounded and uncalled for.

This thread isn't solely about you or your ideas/comments.  There are several people that have offered ideas, suggestions and comments.  So perhaps instead of chastising me, you should take a minute and consider my post my have been directed at others, or at the thread in its entirety. 

Uncalled for?  Harsh maybe.  Perhaps I touched a nerve?  Struck a little too close to home?  So I can't express my opinion, but you can?  What makes your CAP experience any more relevant than anyone else's?  Even the "short" time I've been in CAP, I still listen to other comments and points of view.  However, I think we have enough on our plate with the programs we have now without creating additional bureaucracy for ourselves.

[shorning]

In other words, I will put out to my squadron
"There is change in the schedule for next week, bring shorts and a t-shirt as we will be weighing in.  Because the uniform for next week is Class A's I suggest all Senior Members bring something else to change into should you not meet the weight standards".

I've been thinking about this for a while now.  I'm curious why would you have this requirement.  Here's why I ask.

First, the weigh-in is arguably going to upset many of your members.  Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, but each to their own.  So, lets pretend I'm a senior in your squadron.  You weigh me and at 6'3" I weight 260.  I am over the CAP weight standards.  So you're going to tell me that I can't wear "Class A's"(known as "Service Dress" to the AF and CAP BTW).  Why do I care?  As a senior, I'm not required to wear a uniform, let alone wear the Service Dress.  So what purpose does the weigh-in serve?  Sure you might enlighten some members, but why not just talk to them now?  Why does it take a weigh-in to press the issue?  From comments you've made, I presume you have (or have had) some affiliation with the RealMilitary.  Waiting on the weigh-in to bring up the issue is a crutch.  Even if a member meets the weight standards, wear of the AF-style uniform may not be appropriate for some members.  It has more to do with body shape, uniform fit and overall professional appearance.  A commander should already be talking to their members about these things.

Next, why require Service Dress, when members aren't required to even own it?  CAPM 39-1 is clear on this.  I'll grant that what follows is an extract, but it emphasizes my point.  According to CAPM 39-1, paragraph 1-5, "Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform." (p. 8 ).  So members are supposed to equip themselves with a uniform.  However, the basic uniforms are spelled out:

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

and,

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve. Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

I'm certainly not out to change the world.  In fact, quite often I feel like Don Quixote.  Do I expect more out of our members?  Yep.  Am I surprised when they don't "step up"?  Not any more. 

I think we push way too many unnecessary requirements on our members.  I think to achieve a higher standard of uniform wear; you have to have "buy in" from the members of your unit.  You can't just "order" CAP members to do something and expect that it will happen.  CAP is not the military.  There is a different type of leadership necessary for leading our volunteers.

[Al Sayre]

On requiring PT test for SM advancement/Officer grade, how do you address all of the senior members who are disabled in some way that would prevent them from passing a PT test, especially those who are disabled veterans (like me)? 

I can pass a flight physical, but I am not allowed to run and some other limitations.  Are you saying I'm unworthy of being an officer because I can't pass the PT?  I meet all of the other qualifications for Officership either in C.A.P. or the U.S. Military.  The C.A.P. was founded by people who were unable to perform military service for one reason or another, including physical disabilities, but still wanted to serve. 

I think your idea would be considered a direct violation of CAPR 39-1, and also of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[shorning]

The C.A.P. was founded by people who were unable to perform military service for one reason or another, including physical disabilities, but still wanted to serve. 

Excellent point!  Spot on!  CAP was never meant to "be" the military.

[Horn229]

An interesting Knowledgebase item as I was browsing this morning;

Question
  Can a Squadron Commander require a weigh-in for a senior member to find out if they meet the weight standards for wearing AF style uniforms?


  Answer
  Yes. CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 1-2 (see below) tasks commanders to ensure that all members present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP.

A professional, well-groomed APPEARANCE

I don't see anything there that even remotely gives a commander the authority to conduct a "weigh-in". I've seen many obese senior members present a very professional appearance in both the USAF and CAP distictive uniforms. Where you get "let's be proactive and make them get on a scale" out of "judge their appearance"?

[mikeylikey]

Alright, let me distance myself from the "make Senior Members do PT" posts.  I would hate for the ADA to come after me.  Second, my sarcasm did not come off as I had planned.     I would never require weigh-ins or anyone to jump on a scale.  I also stand corrected, it is "Service Dress", not "Class A's".  Finally, to  shorning, I do have an affiliation with the Military.  I have been an officer for over 7 years, but before that I was a CAP member for 9, and continue my active involvement in the program.  I know the differences between leadership required in CAP and military leadership.  I have long stressed the fact that CAP members are volunteers and if they don't like the smallest thing, then they can leave at any time.  I have met many people who do not take that heart and have seen the negative consequences. 
  In summary, shorning, sorry for using the wrong terminology, and sorry for striking a nerve.

[Al Sayre]

I'm not calling the ADA, but many people seem to forget the reason that C.A.P. was founded.  I know there are a lot of members in my shoes who wish they could do more PT, but are unable to because of their disabilities.  We shouldn't exclude them from professional development and officer grade if they meet all of the other requirements.  Many are disabled veterans who still have some "fight" left in them, but can no longer qualify for military service.  What is wrong with giving these people officer rank and putting their abilities to use? 

I put a fairly long post over on Cadet Stuff addressing the same thing.  If we start splitting up the grade stucture and limiting people by duties or areas of specialization, then why have C.A.P. at all.  If you want to be in a group that specializes, there are plenty of them.  Civil Air Patrol brings all of the groups under one roof, and that is what makes it the great organization that it is.

[shorning]

Alright, let me distance myself from the "make Senior Members do PT" posts.  I would hate for the ADA to come after me.  Second, my sarcasm did not come off as I had planned.    I would never require weigh-ins or anyone to jump on a scale.  I also stand corrected, it is "Service Dress", not "Class A's".  Finally, to  shorning, I do have an affiliation with the Military.  I have been an officer for over 7 years, but before that I was a CAP member for 9, and continue my active involvement in the program.  I know the differences between leadership required in CAP and military leadership.  I have long stressed the fact that CAP members are volunteers and if they don't like the smallest thing, then they can leave at any time.  I have met many people who do not take that heart and have seen the negative consequences.  
 In summary, shorning, sorry for using the wrong terminology, and sorry for striking a nerve.

Don't get me wrong, I think I understand where you're coming from.  I don't generally disagree with the concept.  However, I think there is a certain "wanna be" mindset that is prevalent in CAP.  From my AF perspective, watching CAP members do "what ever the heck they want" whether it's with uniforms, promotions, running squadrons, etc, is really beginning to make me reconsider my membership (strangely it's due this month).  I don't know that it would be a bad idea to distance myself from the mess, less I get painted with the same brush as everyone else.  

Could I try to change things and make a difference?  Sure, but PCSing every three years always makes me "the new guy".  It's been a long time since I've been in a position where people actually listened to anything I had to say about CAP.  An internet forum is one thing, but I'm not even sure it makes a difference.  Again, some days I feel like Don Quixote.  Maybe I'll change my username...

[pixelwonk]

The knowledgebase suggests that a Commander should ensure members present a professional, well-groomed appearance.  Once again, the KB proves to be too ambiguous in it's full answer, but hey... it first said "yes," ...so why not, right? 

Anyone with Squadron Commander in their title has a bit of latitude as to how they wish to run things, but one had better ask themselves the following questions:
"what it would do for the health of my unit?"
"Can I anticipate the results of such a decision?"
If not, am I prepared to effectively handle the ramifications?"

While some wish to make this thread into a weight/officership issue, it's just not the case. Take Officership and/or Professional development to another thread. 
Again, I'd suggest taking a more subtle approach to this weight/uniform issue. 
Peer pressure when applied correctly can be a powerful thing.  Set up a few meeting nights in the very near future to talk about CAP distinctive uniform combinations and when they are worn.  Have it done by someone who not only meets the criteria for a distinctive uniform, but also commands respect at the unit, Group, etc...  Without pointing fingers in public make it clear to all again and again and again that CAP distinctive uniforms shall be worn if a member cannot meet weight or grooming standards.

Enforcing standards must be done with the health of the unit in mind. 

[Becks]

Without pointing fingers in public make it clear to all again and again and again that CAP distinctive uniforms shall be worn if a member cannot meet weight or grooming standards.

I understand your point about not wanting to make it be that "youre wearing a different uniform because you dont meet the standards for the AF one"  But how do you rise above that stigma?  If in a squadron every member chooses to wear an AF uniform (lets say they all meet the standards) and one individual does not and has to wear a distinctive uniform does it not complicate the issue of singling out?  How do we over come this?  Ideally you could have the rest of the SM's show up to certain meetings in a distinctive uniform but this would seem illogical as it would require certain members to purchase a new uniform that they possibly may not want to wear in the first place?  What do we do about this dilema?

[Nick]

A professional, well-groomed APPEARANCE

I don't see anything there that even remotely gives a commander the authority to conduct a "weigh-in". I've seen many obese senior members present a very professional appearance in both the USAF and CAP distictive uniforms. Where you get "let's be proactive and make them get on a scale" out of "judge their appearance"?

Nick --

Another example as to why we shouldn't listen to the Knowledgebase.   The immediate next sentence in CAPM 39-1 after what they quoted says this:

They [commanders] will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform.

The manual (particularly table 1-1 and attachment 1) specifies:

Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AF style uniform.

So, the commander ensures members are unfiormed in accordance with the provisions of the manual.  In order to ensure they are in accordance with the weight standard provision, he/she opts to utilize a weigh-in. 

Sure, I agree with providing a briefing ahead of time, explaining distinctive uniform options, and explaining/reinforcing the weight standard requirement.  But, after they are explained the regulations and given an option to choose to wear the distinctive uniform, if they wish to continue wearing the AF-style uniform, they can be subject to any screening necessary.

[wingnut]

Gentleman

went to my first meeting since 1975, people looked the same, some fat some skinny, over all I am very impressed with a CAP that looked and felt very much like a professional organization. Yes we are a part of the U.S. Air Force, and yes the U.S.Air Force has input on much of what make us what we are. I am in complete agreement with a weight standard, because standards are a fact of our being. Lets face it a morbidly obese person in a U.S. Military uniform relays an image that has been rejected by all the military services, besides it is unhealthy, and a 350 lb observer is unacceptable they take up the space of 2 or one hour of fuel.

So I am for weight standards, but what's the beef, a 350 lb major in the corporate uniform also looks bad

[Eclipse]

I've been reading through this thread.  The one thing that comes to mind is:  "Hello lawsuit!".  No not someone suing the corporation.  I mean someone suing the commander.  I hope you're caring personal liability insurance. 

Here's an idea...why don't we focus on our missions (AKA "stay in our lane") and skip creating additional requirements for our members.  You "wanna be" in the military?  Join the military.  Are in the military and want CAP to be more like the military?  Get a clue!  They are totally different programs.

But whatever...corrupt your program anyway you want.

What would a Senior sue the Commander for?  Breaking regulations?  The regs are public and should be enforced across the board in an even-handed way.

Show up in blues looking 9 months pregnant and you risk humiliation.  we're protecting the service and the image.

[jayleswo]

Interestingly, a recent CAP KB article says that a unit commander CAN conduct a weigh-in.

[Eclipse]

I had just assumed that was where this thread started as it was featured on the updated KB about a week ago...

[flyguy06]

[date=1144257812]


Reveal away....

However what is there to lose by having a senior PT program? If you participate in it then perhaps that tire around your gut would be gone Major.  I never said the requirements would have to be intense, Im aware we're not enlisted, but I believe it would promote healthier lifestyles and thus benefit the program.

[/quote]
So, you're going to make a 74 year old Senior member take a PT test? I agree that CAP needs to be more military like since we are an auxillary of a military organization, but not to that extreme. I also agree that there are members wearing the uniform that dont meet the height and weight standard and it reflects badly on cap. sQUADRON cOMMANDERS NEED TO BE EMPOWERED WITH MORE AUTHORITY TO DEAL WITH THOSE PEOPLE. bUT sQUADRON cOMMANDERS ARE not THE APPROING AUTHORITY TO TERMINATE ONES MEMBERSHIP. Wing Commanders are. And by the time they hear the situation they will be less likely toget rid of the offenders

[Al Sayre]

Somebody is missing the point.  You need to differentiate between "weigh-ins" and mandatory PT.  A commander MAY be able to require weigh-ins, he can definitely enforce the uniform regulations, but if he tries to make seniors perform "Mandatory PT" as a requirement for promotion, he better be ready for a lawsuit unless he complies 100% with the ADA and CAPR 39-1.  Even the cadet program makes exceptions for those with disabilities.
 
What does a commander do when a Senior injures him or herself during a PT and ends up out of work for 6-8 weeks to recover?  What if they end up on long term disability?  Whose insurance is going to pay? 

[DrDave]

[date=1144257812]

However what is there to lose by having a senior PT program? If you participate in it then perhaps that tire around your gut would be gone Major.  I never said the requirements would have to be intense, Im aware we're not enlisted, but I believe it would promote healthier lifestyles and thus benefit the program.

-------------------

This has been recently discussed on the Health Services Listserve.  Missouri Wing is putting together a pilot Senior Member PFT program utilizing an already established national fitness program that is (1) Voluntary, and (2) Trackable.  Significant prizes will be established for the top winners.  As mentioned, this program is voluntary, individualized (you compete against yourself), has specific levels of achievement, and is trackable individually and by group (i.e. Wing participation).

To quote CAPR 160-1, "CAP health services' overarching program goal is to assist our entire membership to become and/or remain optimally healthy and fit."  A voluntary senior physical fitness program would help Health Service Officers meet this goal and further the success of CAP's missions.  Physical fitness is not just for our cadets.  It should be for all of us.

(Personal note: Ever been to a National Board Conference?  Next time, watch the National Board members go forward to receive their awards.  A good 90% are in AF Blues, and a good 75% of that group would probably fail a weigh-in! <grin>)

David A. Miller, MD
Captain, CAP
(Who needs to lose 20 pounds himself!)

[DrDave]

This has been recently discussed on the Health Services Listserve.  Missouri Wing is putting together a pilot Senior Member PFT program utilizing an already established national fitness program that is (1) Voluntary, and (2) Trackable.  Significant prizes will be established for the top winners.  As mentioned, this program is voluntary, individualized (you compete against yourself), has specific levels of achievement, and is trackable individually and by group (i.e. Wing participation).

To quote CAPR 160-1, "CAP health services' overarching program goal is to assist our entire membership to become and/or remain optimally healthy and fit."  A voluntary senior physical fitness program would help Health Service Officers meet this goal and further the success of CAP's missions.  Physical fitness is not just for our cadets.  It should be for all of us.

(Personal note: Ever been to a National Board Conference?  Next time, watch the National Board members go forward to receive their awards.  A good 90% are in AF Blues, and a good 75% of that group would probably fail a weigh-in! <grin>)

David A. Miller, MD
Captain, CAP
(Who needs to lose 20 pounds himself!)

(Sorry am new at posting to this group)

[smj58501]

I personally feel this topic has gotten a bit out of hand. Appearance is the real concern, and weight tables are used as a tool to determine if the AF style uniform can be worn. Appearance needs to be the focus of concern here. Weight tables should not be the end all be all.

For example, some members may still make the screening table, but choose to wear a uniform that is a few sizes too small because they are too cheap/ lazy/ whatever to buy new ones as their body changes with age (again, even if they fall in the screening table). Their appearance would still be in conflict with the INTENT of the regulation, and technically this should be addressed by the commander. Even if they did update their wardrobe, a spare tire is a spare tire and does not look good as judged by the AF, even if weight stays below screening table guidelines. Conversely, some members may be very muscular in nature (perhaps possessing 10% or less body fat), but because of their muscle mass they exceed screening weight. They will look very professional in an AF-style uniform but technically should not wear one. If I were the commander of such a member, I would have a pretty hard time telling them they need to wear a corporate uniform because (even though they look like an ad for a health club) they still exceed a screening weight table. But thats just me committing the crime of applying common sense.

Maybe the real solution is to do away with AF-style uniforms and everyone goes corporate. If you want to wear the AF-style uniform, join the real Air Force.

Before some of you hit the reply button with your emotionally-charged response to my previous statement, I will tell you I realize this is an extreme we don't want to go to..... but it is just about as extreme as requiring weigh-in's and PT program's in an organization of unpaid volunteers. Appearance is important and needs to be reinforced, but how you go about reinforcing it needs to be done through a level-headed application of common sense and (yes I will say it) sensitivity. I know that can be difficult for some members who feel CAP is a reserve component of the USAF vs. an auxiliary comprised of true volunteers. I am sure they will see the light when hard-working and productive volunteers start quitting CAP because their cdrs let a regulation do their thinking for them.